I get that some thought it not relevant, however I think that how this is viewed beyond the borders of Europe is relevant, at least as relevant as the pages and pages war porn and armchair generalship. A point no one has engaged with.

Prejudices exist outside Europe, skin colour or ethnicity isn’t a barrier to having prejudice. The core point that Europe should be better and it’s bound to have impact in terms of how some see us is still important. We can and should be better than this and hopefully will be in the near future.

Molgrips,

Across Western media there has been a constant chime of ‘this isn’t the middle East, it’s Europe’, ‘This isn’t Some third world African Country, it’s civilised Europe’. ‘They look like us, blond haired, blue eyed’. Etcetera etcetera.

This is not being received very well beyond the borders of Europe, not because I think so, because people have told me and I’ve looked at some non Western media for a bit of perspective.

There’s also a few million Britain’s who don’t conform to the ‘look like us’ stereotype. I wonder how they feel when they are watching the news? And I also wonder how they would feel if they strolled on here.

They look like us

Quite correct and something I think I said in the thread. However, despite the inherent racism that is a real effect and perhaps lies at the root of racism itself.

But as I also said it’s not really possible to bring this up at this time (because psychology) and you’ll get the response you got, and that may end up even damaging your aim long term.

I wonder how they feel when they are watching the news?

I was going to respond here but I can’t do so without appearing to trivialise one side or the other because of the same psychology.

They look like us, blond haired, blue eyed’. Etcetera etcetera.

Are you conflating MSM with social media?

There probably has been the odd ill thought out piece but it’s not the main strand

There’s also a few million Britain’s who don’t conform to the ‘look like us’ stereotype. I wonder how they feel when they are watching the news?

Who is us?

How do they feel? Probably worried that it’s going to go nuclear and what the price of petrol, heating and food is going to get to nevermind their job security

And I also wonder how they would feel if they strolled on here.

Probably wondering what tyres for bomb debris?

If you think this place is the problem then you need to step back from the internet

“Are you conflating MSM with social media?”

I am conflating MSM with STW for sure. Not sure about other social media because this is the only social media I follow.

“How do they feel? Probably worried that it’s going to go nuclear and what the price of petrol, heating and food is going to get to nevermind their job security”

Probably is the key word.

Across Western media there has been a constant chime of ‘this isn’t the middle East, it’s Europe’,

Words to that effect don’t need to be racist though do they. Rightly or wrongly everyone knows and expects brutal dictators like Assad to end up in Civil Wars, Iran and Iraq to clash, Israel and Palestine to be in conflict, Israel and Iran to square up etc.

They don’t expect in 2022 to wake up to a European country being invaded.

It’s geopolitically different.

‘This isn’t Some third world African Country

I think you’ve miss quoted that. The original quote is from al Jazera and goes “These are not people trying to get away from areas in North Africa”, which again goes back to the previous point, Lybia, Tunisia and more recently Algeria (a topic that didn’t get much news coverage, racist? Or just overshadowed by COVID in the UK?) are or were untill very recently not very “European”, using “European” as a synonym for modern western liberal democracies.

‘They look like us, blond haired, blue eyed’.

Yea, I saw that one live on the news. It really was a “did he just say that……” moment.

But being the empathetic forgiving type, I’m going to give him some benefit of the doubt and say the Ukrainian civil servant who said that was speaking in a foreign language, and probably hasn’t slept much recently. It wasnt his main statement, it was an epilogue apologizing for getting emotional during the interview. He might just have been struggling to pick a more nuanced set of words. An overly generous application of Hanlon’s Razor, perhaps. Maybe he is actually a nationalistic flag-waving racist after all.

Is it racist/zenophobic to be more affected by seeing your own country bombed than some faraway land? Objectively, yes it is. But it’s on a whole other planet compared to for example the border crossing issues if they turn out to be true.

But even then there’s room to argue what’s going on. Without context, the “uk passports” Vs “non-UK passports” queues in the arrivals terminal at Heathrow from parts of the world probably look pretty racist.

How about empathy instead of “woke”? It’s less perjorative and a lack of empathy can be attributed to those that use woke. One shooting war is enough without joining the culture war as that’s a demonstration of intolerance in itself.

The etymology might be the same, but personally, I’d see a huge difference between someone I’d describe as empathetic and someone who’s woke. One’s quietly packing boxes of supplies into the back of a luton van to drive across Europe, the other’s throwing metaphorical bricks at a peace rally.

Would ‘Pub full of white blokes” be a fair description or the STW Forum?

Note that I didn’t say racist white blokes before anyone gets hypersensitive.

Big-n-daft nails it really. He’s told us how other people ‘probably’ feel without actually canvassing their opinion.

You could ask them you know, that way you wouldn’t have to be guessing.

“Words to that effect don’t need to be racist though do they”

If they have the ‘effect’ of being seen as racist by half the world that’s still a problem no?

Even if the statements didn’t need to be, or weren’t intended to be racist.

The ‘pub full of white blokes’ I go to has tradesmen, professors, civil servants, the occasional cyclist, techies, both sexes and mainly leftwing with a brown skinned lady behind the bar. I shouldn’t like to stereotype.

If they have the ‘effect’ of being seen as racist by half the world that’s still a problem no?

I’m going to refer you back to your own point.

You could ask them you know, that way you wouldn’t have to be guessing.

Should we sit here and dissect your postings for racism and other -isms where none was probably intended or present? I could construe your dismissal of the middle east as a racist problem as racist in itself, are you saying that it’s not the result of a whole host of historical and geopolitical issues and is in fact just because they’re not “European”*?

You’re taking a handfull of examples, some out of context, from 9 days of wall to wall 24h news coverage about a war on our doorstep, and calling everyone else racist for being worried about it. With the implication that we weren’t equally bothered by events in Syria, Afghanistan or North Africa. Again, did you actually ask anyone on here what their views on those conflicts was? Or did you just decide for us that we were racist and didn’t care?

You’re winding people up, and once baited you’re calling them racist for having disagreements with nuances of your philosophy. To parody you I could say you’ve not mentioned LGBTQ+ issues in relation to this once either, does that make you homophobic? Being stuck between Russia and Poland is very much a rock and a hard place in that context.

*I’m aware that “the result of a whole host of historical and geopolitical issues” could just as easily be the Ukraine, but we’ve not had an outright invasion in Europe for 80 years, so there’s the nuance.

Spoon,

I’ve not called anyone racist or anyone a fascist and if people think I have then that really is their own problem.

I’ve just asked that we look at ourselves from an outside perspective.

I did ask other people their opinions. It’s why I posted in the first place, I was hearing opinions not voiced on the thread in question.

Can’t we just talk about bikes and biking? After all we are on a mountain bike magazine forum site. I’m sure there are plenty of other sites that cater for those who want an in-depth discussion about what ever ism they are interested in.

IMHO this forum should be about the pleasures of riding mountain bikes and the tech that goes  with them

Here you go.

Doh! Should have checked Cougars link…

If as some are suggesting, is so easy to talk about race on this forum then why did it take so long for anyone to comment on it? (Something acknowledged by bruce)

In a similar way, I’m sure fish don’t feel the need to talk about water everyday.

You can see these things, and be concerned, and think and feel, but you seem to think it’s only real if you come on a bike forum and honk loudly about it.

Across Western media there has been a constant chime of ‘this isn’t the middle East, it’s Europe’, ‘This isn’t Some third world African Country, it’s civilised Europe’. ‘They look like us, blond haired, blue eyed’. Etcetera etcetera.

I am mostly avoiding TV/radio news as frankly I struggle to cope with the appalling hypocrisy.

I have recently learnt that many innocent people are mutilated and killed in wars, including children, and yet I can’t remember that being discussed much when NATO countries were involved in unnecessary wars which ultimately achieved very little and often nothing at all.

I wouldn’t call it hypocrisy. What most people seem to forget is that news organisations report the news they think people want to hear. Not what they think people should hear. Think of it as perverse entertainment – it all makes sense then.

You may think this morally wrong, but if people aren’t interested or they don’t like what’s being reported, then they wont’ watch it. So you run the risk of broadcasting news that no-one wants to hear to no-one. Not sure how you can force people to watch?

I’m not saying it’s right, but that’s how it works.

Can’t we just talk about bikes and biking?

Wouldn’t it be easier to close down the ‘chat’ forum and just keep the ‘bikes’ forum?

I was of the opinion that they were separate for a reason?

There used only to be one, and there were so many threads labelled OFF-TOPIC that they opened the chat forum.

Don’t take the words of 10 or so posters on one thread as represantative of the whole of stw. I saw the news reports about black folks being let in 1 to 6 whites or whatever it was and I thought it was disgusting. I just don’t comment much on threads anymore.

Well the Ukraine thread had become pretty unpleasant, and benefited from a time out.

The Ukraine thread was about a war of aggression on the borders of several EU countries. Brexit notwithstanding this feels pretty close to home. Chuck in attacks on civilians, what will be millions of refugees to house across Europe, possible further escalation by Putin… That’s quite a lot.

So remainders that some NATO countries have done (arguably) bad things; or that some Ukrainians are racist and the processing of refugees as reported in the news is racist and everyone agrees is awful, these reminders do risk looking like whataboutery at best (“we’re bad too not just Putin”), and at worst are close to Putin’s claims he’s liberating Ukraine from Nazis.

Not saying that’s what anyone’s doing, just that’s what it could look like. The Nigerians I’ve met who’ve studied medicine in Russia have had a mixed time of it too. The more I hear about that Putin…

“I am mostly avoiding TV/radio news as frankly I struggle to cope with the appalling hypocrisy.”

Me too, as fraught as it can get on here I’d rather get my news second hand, filtered by the STW massive than watch a helicopter go down in flames five times every hour.

One of the forums im on, a furniture making type of thing has an ‘off topic’ section, but it also has an ‘off topic for controversial subjects’ which things like covid vaccine, the Ukraine, western imperialism,etc is posted in. And people argue their points there

It’s quite a conservative place so any swearing  is strictly forbidden, even to the point of the forum software changing words like Idiot, or Fool or Moron into less abusive terms. Plus it has easy access to dozens and dozens of smilie things so peoples words cant be misconstrued.

STW doesnt have these smilies available to , im guessing here, ‘free members’ and are they more available to Full members ?.

Perhaps if there was greater access to these wee smilie things, people wouldnt feel tone is an issue when in truth it isnt and its just a question, rhetorical or otherwise

John×2

Well that’s the contradiction isn’t it? Highlighting the events at the border does indeed risk whataboutery and feeds propaganda to the Russians.

Not reporting it or commenting on it would be one option.

A bit of pressure on Poland and Ukraine (or the EU) to sort out what was probably a few hundred, or a couple of thousand mostly medical students would have been another. I think we’re all agreed on the moral aspect, it’s the dumbness that gets me most

As the Russian state takes full control of the media, every tit bit we give them will be exploited to the full. Whilst we watch the helicopters fall, they will be watching that border footage and the Polish far right chasing people through the streets on an endless loop.

these reminders do risk looking like whataboutery at best (“we’re bad too not just Putin”), and at worst are close to Putin’s claims he’s liberating Ukraine from Nazis.

Not saying that’s what anyone’s doing, just that’s what it could look like.

The trouble is that this sentiment for me leans towards a dangerous kind of propagandist groupthink where anything at all that distracts from the good vs evil narrative is helping the enemy and is not to be tolerated.

Serious as the situation is, we aren’t currently under attack and I find this kind of mentality quite disturbing.

dyna-ti

If you’re saying the use of derrogatorry language escalates things then I agree with you.

I’ve stopped using it, so have become more aware when it is thrown in my direction, it’s only banter when both participants are using the same language.

I’m no saint though. I tend to respond to any abuse with obtuse comments, which has its’ own capacity to wind up.

I saw the news reports about black folks being let in 1 to 6 whites or whatever it was and I thought it was disgusting.

I think this is the news report which kicked off this argument and got the Ukraine thread temporarily closed. Frankly, I was mystified at the fuss it caused. As others have pointed out, streaming immigrants at border crossing based on their immigration status happens at just about every international border and no one blinks an eye.

(Edit for clarity: the C4 News report was following some international students from Nigeria, I think. So these obviously have different visas/passports than the Ukrainian citizens)

If you’re saying the use of derogatory language escalates things then I agree with you.

Well yeah, but what the side effect of it is as soon as someone hits you with something you feel is nasty or spiteful, even if it wasn’t implied that way, straight away you feel either forced to go on the defensive, or/and you completely ignore what that person is saying to you, and if others echo that, you view them also as being negative towards you and disclude their points also.

So you lose the point of understanding, or rather everyone loses the lack of understanding.

.

In effect, everyone crosses their arms and goes off in a huff 😆

By pure chance today I’ve spoken to someone who is heading home which is 3 miles from the Polish and Ukrainian border. They’re planning to work on the border helping with the refugees. What they described was those with proof of their nationality and those with none. Guess which ones are getting through faster than the others?

STW doesnt have these smilies available

😀😁😂🤣😃😄😅😆😉😊😋😎😍😘🥰😗😙😚☺🙂🤗🤩🤔🤨😐😑😶🙄😏😣😥😮🤐😯😪😫🥱😴😌😛😜😝🤤😒😓😔😕🙃🤑😲☹🙁😖😞😟😤😢😭😦😧😨😩🤯😬😰😱🥵🥶😳🤪😵🥴😠😡🤬😷🤒🤕🤢🤮🤧😇🥳🥺🤠🤡🤥🤫🤭🧐🤓😈👿

(and many, many more 💩)

to , im guessing here, ‘free members’ and are they more available to Full members ?.

You’re guessing incorrectly.

What they described was those with proof of their nationality and those with none. Guess which ones are getting through faster than the others?

I don’t understand why refugees fleeing a war zone need to prove their nationality.

Nor why how fast they are able to flee is dependent on proving their nationality.

We’re talking about people trying to escape bombings and death, right?

You’re guessing incorrectly.

On this forum? Surely not….

I don’t understand why refugees fleeing a war zone need to prove their nationality.

Nor why how fast they are able to flee is dependent on proving their nationality.

We’re talking about people trying to escape bombings and death, right?

In a perfect world, run by enlightened governments, they wouldn’t. But this isn’t a perfect world and, quite possibly, some of those refugees may, shock horror, not actually be refugees. The KGB/FSB don’t always play by the rules, the cheeky buggers…

You’re guessing incorrectly.

Certainly not in my posting box section.

I’ve ten options.

Left to right –

Bold

Italic

<span style=”text-decoration: underline;”>Underline</span>

Quote

Insert/edit link

Remove link

Undo

Redo

Clear formatting

Insert/edit image

——-

And thats all. So no smilies.

So 💩 where are they then ?

The KGB/FSB don’t always play by the rules,

Ah yes of course. It’s to check that FSB agents aren’t trying to flee Ukraine.

Why would they want to flee Ukraine btw? And why are they incapable of having forged papers?

Edit : Just out of interest, do you know if the FSB are equal opportunity employers?

You do wonder about some people’s political correctness, moral rectitude and big hitting as well as being free members.

Certainly not in my posting box section.

I didn’t say they were.

Somewhat ironically, you’re using the “fancy editor” (more correctly TinyMCE) so you actually have more options than I do. This is a setting in your STW Profile.

So 💩 where are they then ?

The emoji menu is Win-. (full stop) on a Windows 10 machine, it works across pretty much the entire OS. If you’re on a phone, emoji support is built in to most mobile devices’ virtual keyboards. Mac I’ve no idea I’m afraid, someone else will have to advise there.

And as you’ve presumably just demonstrated, copy & paste also works. Though sometimes quite badly in TinyMCE.

Ah yes of course. It’s to check that FSB agents aren’t trying to flee Ukraine.

Who is saying they want to “flee Ukraine”? I’m not. But I imagine being able to get inside the EU borders “undetected” may be useful strategically…

(But maybe I’ve watched too many spy films and have too vivid an imagination).

But I imagine being able to get inside the EU borders “undetected” may be useful strategically…

Maybe. But in this case, for example, I suspect that good ol’ fashion racism was the issue rather than any concern that Korrine from Leicester might be a Russian spy trying to infiltrate the EU.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/british-student-brands-treatment-black-26390678.amp

“If I’m a white Ukrainian woman and I’ve got my dog, I’d just walk through while there are still these queues of black people that are probably going to be there for another two or three days”