Is the UK a Christian Country?

Do you think there are no biscuits left in my tin over here?

Did you ever play the Hitch-Hiker’s Guide to the Galaxy adventure game?

Do you think there are no biscuits left in my tin over here?

Its unknowable – thats my point

Schrödingers cat

That’s an interesting question. I may have to think about it.

See, it was worth reading the whole post… 😉

Schrödingers cat

No, CharlieMungus’s Biscuits.

Lucky the analogy wasn’t a cracker barrel. (-:

Do you think there are no biscuits left in my tin over here?
Its unknowable – thats my point

Finally!!!
It’s unknowable, good! So what do you believe? What do you think?
Then, if the state of my biscuit tin in unknowable, how come you can know that there is no god.

and it’s got frig all to do with Schrodinger’s cat

if the state of my biscuit tin in unknowable, how come you can know that there is no god.

By definition, there’s good reason to suspect that there may be biscuits in a biscuit tin. The same does not hold true for gods.

A better analogy might be to ask whether we believe that there’s a walrus (or no walruses) in your biscuit tin.

A better analogy might be to ask whether we believe that there’s a walrus (or no walruses) in your biscuit tin.

Fabulous.

Finally!!!
It’s unknowable, good! So what do you believe? What do you think?

I do not believe in gods. I can give no answer to the question ” do you believe there are no gods” as the question is meaningless. I do not have any belief in the concept of “no god” “No gods” is a meaningless concept to me

Then, if the state of my biscuit tin in unknowable, how come you can know that there is no god.

because I opened the box!

In answer to my own analogy,

I don’t believe that there is a walrus in your biscuit tin. I do believe that there are no walruses in your biscuit tin. It’s a made-up concept and so absurd that I’d go as far as to say that I know that there are no walruses in your biscuit tin, because there’s no reason to think that there are beyond the made-up premise I invented (though of course there may be biscuits shaped like walruses.)

However, if you were to show me your biscuit tin and go “look, a walrus” then I would revise my stance. Presented with such evidence, I would then know that you have walruses in your biscuit tin, and I would decline offers to visit you for coffee.

A better analogy might be to ask whether we believe that there’s a walrus (or no walruses) in your biscuit tin.

Fine, do you believe I don’t have a walrus in my biscuit tin?

I don’t believe that there is a walrus in your biscuit tin. I do believe that there are no walruses in your biscuit tin. It’s a made-up concept and so absurd that I’d go as far as to say that I know that there are no walruses in your biscuit tin, because there’s no reason to think that there are beyond the made-up premise I invented (though of course there may be biscuits shaped like walruses.)

sure but, you don’t actually know, you have very good reason to believe, but to know is something very different, knowledge is conceptually different from believing very strongly.

I wonder how TJ would cope as a customs official. Hello, officer. I have no drugs on me. What? you cannot believe or not believe me? why thanks you.

knowledge is conceptually different from believing very strongly.

How so? I’m not so sure.

Charlie – I believe that drugs exist as do many folk – therefore I can believe in the absence of them.

If I don’t believe something exists how can I believe in its absence?

If I don’t believe something exists how can I believe in its absence?

the same way everyone else does. Are you avoiding the knowledge issue?

do you believe I don’t have a walrus in my biscuit tin?

Is it possible to accept the existence of something which you do not believe exists?

That’s a neat trick.

sure but, you don’t actually know, you have very good reason to believe, but to know is something very different, knowledge is conceptually different from believing very strongly.

Then we’re into the realms of philosophical twaddle about how we really “know” anything. Do we really know that the Universe isn’t some inter-dimensional hyperbeing’s high school science project? (His brother had used it for a project previously, so he had to format it first to get rid of all those big lizardy things.)

I know, for all practical purposes. I “know” plenty of things which, at some point, may be disproved as better explanations or evidence comes to light. I “know” plenty of things based on what other people have told me, which I lack the means to validate first-hand but which plenty of very clever people have been able to prove.

I know these things beyond reasonable doubt. Arguably, from another point of view I don’t actually know anything at all. (Quiet at the back)

Mr Woppit – Member
Is it possible to accept the existence of something which you do not believe exists?

Yes, as a concept. Like Santa Claus, and the bogeyman…

Is it possible to accept the existence of something which you do not believe exists?
That’s a neat trick.

Well, it is, but it is a bit of a linguistic trick. One might say they do not believe god exists, but not say that they believe god does not exist.

TJ

Do you believe in The Dictionary ?

It’s a book that defines the meanings of all the words we use.

And it’s definition of Atheism, says your talking cack.

ATHEISM:
a·the·ism
[ey-thee-iz-uhm]
– noun 1. the belief that there is no God

I know these things beyond reasonable doubt. Arguably, from another point of view I don’t actually know anything at all. (Quiet at the back)

Sure, i’m reasonably happy with that idea, but the ‘knowing’ is based on hard evidence. and in the realms where you have no evidence or insufficient knowledge, then you don’t know, although you may have strong suspicions that i don’t have a walrus in a biscuit tin

how do you know there is no god? have you been across the whole universe and looked to make sure he isn’t hiding behind a rock?

You believe there is no god in the abscence of evidence to prove otherwise.

Schrodingers Cat, you do not know what is happening in the box but reason and probability allows you to predict the outcome.

I believe in Evolution, i believe in the big bang, if someone comes along and shows me a better theory then i will change my beliefs, the heart of science is to be open about ideas because the whole point is to challenge belief.

I do not have any belief in the concept of “no god” “No gods” is a meaningless concept to me

I don’t think it’s a meaningless concept. I think it’s a weaselly one.

To acknowledge that there are no gods, you first have to acknowledge that gods exist and then say there aren’t any. It’s a theist point-scoring exercise.

My walrus tin analogy falls down on exactly this point, thinking about it. I already know(*) that walruses exist, the question is whether they exist in CM’s biscuit tin (or whether none of them don’t, or something). Perhaps instead we need to consider whether or not we know that there are no live unicorns in the tin.

(* – at least, I know beyond reasonable doubt; I’ve seen them on TV. They could be an elaborate hoax, but it’s not likely).

Do you believe in The Dictionary ?

It’s a book that defines the meanings of all the words we use.

And it’s definition of Atheism, says your talking cack.

There are many dictionaries, and you haven’t specified which one you’re referring to. You might well be used to having blind faith in a book, but how do we know that it’s a credible source (or that you haven’t just made it up)?

As a stab in the dark, I looked on dictionary.com – this is what it has to say:

atheism
a·the·ism
? ?[ey-thee-iz-uhm]
noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Origin: 1580–90; < Greek áthe ( os ) godless + -ism

Whether or not this proves your point or TJ’s, frankly it’s too much of a logic bomb for me to care so you can fight it out amongst yourselves. Point is, it carries two alternate definitions, not just the one you cited.

To acknowledge that there are no gods, you first have to acknowledge that gods exist and then say there aren’t any. It’s a theist point-scoring exercise.

exactly.

Surely;

Knowledge = Belief based upon the most convincing evidence available. (People ‘knew’ that the world was flat, orbitted by the sun)

Faith = Belief based upon nice stories, indocrination, desire to fill the gaps…

Both belief though. Maybe it’s the English language that is left wanting…

To acknowledge that there are no gods, you first have to acknowledge that gods exist and then say there aren’t any. It’s a theist point-scoring exercise.

Not at all, you don’t have to accept they exist to say there aren’t any. I’m happy to say that I don’t believe that unicorns exist. I’m also happy to say that I believe that unicorns don’t exist.

Why is that so hard for you to do the same with god?

TJ, still why is it that the state of my biscuit tin is unknowable, yet the existence or nor of a god is knowable?

Perhaps instead we need to consider whether or not we know that there are no live unicorns in the tin.

Just to be pedantic, unicorns do exist. first exhibit is the Narwhal, which may be one source of the myth, then there are cases of antelope, goats, etc with a single horn.

To go further, it is a reasonable assumption that Jesus did exist, as did most of the prophets, Budha probably existed as have the majority of the religious leaders of the world. Which does lead to the question of if someone hears “voices” due to mental illness does that mean the “voices” don’t exist because i can’t hear them? If there solution is to call the voices god as an explanatin of what is happening to them? Occams razor…. the answer is probably the simplest one, which reflects the culture in which you live. Fits through history have often been regarded as divine rather than an illness.

Nope – only Monkeys, lions, elephants, Tigers and Hippo’s

See – it says on the pack:

To acknowledge that there are no gods, you first have to acknowledge that gods exist and then say there aren’t any. It’s a theist point-scoring exercise.

Really? I have to acknowledge the existence of bogeymen 😯 before saying that there aren’t any (under my bed)??? I now feel that I was seriously misinformed as a small child…

in the realms where you have no evidence or insufficient knowledge, then you don’t know, although you may have strong suspicions that i don’t have a walrus in a biscuit tin

True. But, critically, I have no reason to think that you might(*). I therefore know right now that you do not have a walrus in your biscuit tin.

(*) – Interestingly, this was true at the start of the discussion but isn’t actually true any longer; there’s a likelyhood that you might obtain a walrus and put it in the tin in order to prove a point. God doesn’t exist, but you might invent him.

ok, but back to the unicorns and bogeymen…

I have to acknowledge the existence of bogeymen before saying that there aren’t any (under my bed)???

Absolutely.

Compare “there are no bogeymen under your bed” to “there’s no such thing as bogeymen.” In the former you’re passively reinforcing the concept that bogeymen exist, in the latter you aren’t.

To go further, it is a reasonable assumption that Jesus did exist, as did most of the prophets

Provide evidence. Frankly, there’s more historical data to suggest that Sherlock Holmes existed than Jesus.

Which does lead to the question of if someone hears “voices” due to mental illness does that mean the “voices” don’t exist because i can’t hear them?

They exist as a thought process in the minds of the deluded. As does god, funnily enough.

Fits through history have often been regarded as divine rather than an illness.

I know. Sad isn’t it?

True. But, critically, I have no reason to think that you might(*). I therefore know right now that you do not have a walrus in your biscuit tin.

Strangely enough I work in a zoo and one of our walruses just gave birth and died immediately after. I’ve been given repsonsibility of looking after the tiny fella and had nowhere to keep him. Guess what i did?

Absolutely.

Compare “there are no bogeymen under your bed” to “there’s no such thing as bogeymen.” In the former you’re passively reinforcing the concept that bogeymen exist, in the latter you aren’t.

Fine, but can you say there is no such thing as bogeymen?

So is ‘there are no bogeymen’ (forget geographical locations) different to there is no such thing as bogeymen?

Same question for Gods?

Strangely enough I work in a zoo and one of our walruses just gave birth and died immediately after. I’ve been given repsonsibility of looking after the tiny fella and had nowhere to keep him. Guess what i did?

Made up a story in order to convince me that god is real there is a walrus in your biscuit tin?

So is ‘there are no bogeymen’ (forget geographical locations) different to there is no such thing as bogeymen?

I’m not sure. Is there?

Cougar,

Yes various dictionary definitions with vary (slightly) in their wording.

But I’ll bet you nobody can find one that says:

Atheism:

Noun-

The Knowledge that no gods exist.

They will all have the word BELIEF in the definition.