My Sat evening, being the hip cool person that I am, was spent doing a 20min test on trainer road.

My test set up consists of tacx antares rollers (with front wheel in stand). This evening I managed to increase my ftp up to 277W, which is nice. However as I am running a compact, this was with a cadence of around 107 which I felt was too fast in cadence but too low in torque. I think my rollers have too little resistance for the sort of work I want to do to increase my power.

Question is, do I buy a new turbo with more resistance than my rollers at around £150 – £200. Alternatively I put this money towards a power meter, and use my old magnetic turbo, from which Trainer road is unable to derive virtual power?

A power meter is considerably more than 200 quid, so a good TrainerRoad approved turbo would be the best/cheapest way to get a figure to work from.

Unless you’re really into racing then the TR power value, even if incorrect, will be just as an effective training tool than a “real” power number. (Provided you keep the setup consistent).

However you can’t ride a turbo on the road/trails so if you’re a stats kinda person and need those numbers for every pedal stroke you turn then there’s not much else to do than payout for a power meter.

A cheap standard chainset from the classifieds, and put the rest of the money towards a powermeter. Then read “Training With Power” and learn how to use it. I see too many riders with powermeters who think “Ooh, numbers!” but don’t use the data to improve*.

*I just got a coach instead.

What schmiken said if you’re serious and have the budget.

I’d spend the £200 going to your local uni sports dept getting properly tested and asking them to write you a 3 month unsupported training plan. Should be within budget. Might even get 6 months. Re tests will be cheaper.

Then you know the numbers you are chasing, and have a professional set a plan for you. Supported coaching costs a chunk more each month and I couldn’t afford it.

If you are in the south I recommend Solent uni in Southampton.

A cheap standard chainset from the classifieds, and put the rest of the money towards a powermeter

Or a 52T ring for your current compact…

Exactly what schmiken said, if you do get a PM read the book or get a coach, your FTP is just the starting point.

Thanks all. Going to get a 53t chainring for now which should allow me to drop my cadence to a more natural and realiatic level.

Its for training for triathlons and I was planning to get a propper TT bike this winter, provided I’m still as keen at the end of the season. That’s where I thought spending around £400-500 on a stages or Garmin could be useful – have the data on the turbo and during the race.

I’m a fairly analytical chap so I do like data, numbers & graphs…

As above even a cheap HRM is a great tool for getting fitter, you don’t need power.

Buy a power meter if you want but it’s the work that gets you fitter and you can train effectively/efficiently enough with a HRM.

Oh and try adjusting your tyre pressures on the rollers I find it can make quite a difference to the effort. You may find lower psi means more resistance and not payout for a new chainset/ring

Unless you’re really into racing then the TR power value, even if incorrect, will be just as an effective training tool than a “real” power number

This.

Swap the cassette to an 11-23. I road race a compact with 11-23 and average 105 rpm. Power is Force x velocity (cadence). If you want to mash big gears with high force, you’ll have lower cadence. That doesn’t work for me. My FTP is about 300, but it’s from spinning lower gears faster. Why do you think this is “unnatural”?

The fastest way to increase FTP power (which is only one aspect of power, and not the one that will win you races) is to train at the “sweet spot” between endurance and threshold -technically Zone 3/4 boundary. A HR monitor and rollers will be sufficient for that. 2×20 minutes at this threshold moving to 40 minutes.

If you want to train 5s and 1 minute power, you’ll need to start sprinting and rollers aren’t really the best tool for that. Any cheap TT will do. I like suffer my Tacx Sartori. My Kreitler rollers equate to 3/4 resistance on my TT.

Interesting to hear your input tiRed. The block on the bike at the mo is am 11-25 for info.

I feel that when spinning at 107rpm its more about how fast I can wiggle my hips and not the torque I can put through the pedals. I feel 95rpm is my sweet spot for cadence for me. Pretty tall at 6’4″ so not sure if this has an impact.

Perhaps I’m mistaken but I would like to lower my cadence and increase torque a little to increase my power.

I note the comments about dropping tire pressures to increase friction and there are a number of ways I could design retardation into the rollers, but the engineer in me prefers accurate data, not fudged ones.

Swap the cassette to an 11-23. I road race a compact with 11-23 and average 105 rpm. Power is Force x velocity (cadence). If you want to mash big gears with high force, you’ll have lower cadence. That doesn’t work for me. My FTP is about 300, but it’s from spinning lower gears faster. Why do you think this is “unnatural”?

I’d imagine because if he’s already at 107 rpm @ 277watts in top gear, then doing intervals at 350+ watts just isn’t going to be natural/possible,
I’d agree that 50/11 is plenty as a top gear on tarmac, but the rollers just don’t provide sufficient resistance.

scruff9252 – Member

Interesting to hear your input tiRed. The block on the bike at the mo is am 11-25 for info.

I feel that when spinning at 107rpm its more about how fast I can wiggle my hips

If you are actually wiggling your hips then your saddle is too high.

I note the comments about dropping tire pressures to increase friction

Thing is you need to then increase the pressure on the tyre form the roller so I’m not sure it’s so simple.

Thing is you need to then increase the pressure on the tyre form the roller

Sorry, stuggling to see your logic there Al. Lower tyre pressure with constant downwards force = increased tyre contact area = higher tyre friction

On the road, yes.

However on any turbo I’ve seen/used, the roller is in a fixed position relative to the tyre that you adjust, so it’s not the same.

However on any turbo I’ve seen/used, the roller is in a fixed position relative to the tyre that you adjust, so it’s not the same.

Confusion between rollers and turbo here. OP is on rollers, decreased tyre pressure = increased resistance (I presume). Turbo is opposite behaviour.

Ahh yes, I see. You’re correct for the turbo when the downwards force is being taken from the qr. I’m using rollers though…

I’d also say if your hips wiggle, lower your saddle, half a centimetre at a time is a reasonable trial. A cadence of 105 is not high. 150 is high, but riders should be able to maintain pedal speed as a key component of fitness.

That said, if you really are spinning out in 50×11 (130 rpm?) then you will need higher gearing and a bigger chainring. The best TT-ers will be riding with cadences of 100. It’s not all about torque.

As someone who was fit and fast before power meters (now slower so don’t need one!) I don’t think you need one to increase you FTP.

You should be able to get similar training from a HR monitor. As your engineer brain will tell you a power meter is more accurate etc but is it worth the investment for what you are trying to achieve?

For you TR scenario it does seem obvious to get a TT rather than a PM if you can’t get both. It will be compliant with TR and will provide suitable resistance as you get fitter. You appear to be at the threshold of your rollers in terms of resistance.

Regards

The best TT-ers will be riding with cadences of 100.

For those that are interested, Wiggins cadence was about 105 this evening (as timed off the TV so not perfect). Since the OP was planning on TT, he’s in a good place 😉

I suspect he might of been putting down a little more power than me though! Would be great to see the stats from that ride!

when you say “front wheel in stand” what do you mean? Front wheel off and using a frame?

As someone who was fit and fast before power meters (now slower so don’t need one!) I don’t think you need one to increase you FTP.

Obviously. But it does mean you can make the most of your training, and best quantify the results.

While i have the toys like the hr mknitor and power meter none of these are needed to training. I know a cat 2 racer who do not have any toys not even a garmin. He can drop me anytime he wants and has in club rides when he up the pace on bildeston hill.

Even a turbo is not necessary. You need to ride. Hill sprint and reps are a good way of doing 1 to 5 minute intervals depending on the length of your hills. 5 to 10 sec sprints in 53-14 or higher is a good way of building power as well a cadance sprints spinning if you can past 120rpm. Sprinting from a 20mph helps simulate that sprint finish in a race. Local tt courses are a good way of doing 20 minute intervals. I dont have a turbo and i use my power meter more to track my progress than a training aid. I also use a single speed mtb to build leg strength it 29er with 36/17T gearing and on steep hills its a work out. Building strength in your legs is the way to improve ftp but i would not be overly obessed with tracking it i have never even measured it. I dont and every week i get a bit faster and stronger for them hills and sitting on front of a race pack. Turbo are a bit boring it more fun riding although most good time trailist have turbo trianing as part of their riding diet. I am not a good time trailist.

There’s no rule that says good time trialling is linked to very high cadence. 90rpm sees to about the average for the top ten places in the tens and 25s I do. I rarely see people spinning faster than 95. Power meters are great because fhey give consistent data. HR is hugely variable but if you know your lactate threshold measured by a blood test and know the power that correlates to then that’s hugely useful data for training.

but if you know your lactate threshold measured by a blood test and know the power that correlates to then that’s hugely useful data for training.

I never quite understood why it’s so useful.

I had mine measured along with my FTP. This gave me HR and power zones to train to. As far as I could see the lactate threshold formed the upper limit of Z1/lower limit of Z2. Z1 is mega endurance or active recovery – I spend very little time in it. When I’m in Z2 I try and target the upper half of it.

I never quite understood why it’s so useful.

Because you then know with complete certainty, at that point in time at least, what your body is capable of.

Let’s say you know that your lactate threshold arrives at 300 watts, then you know any time your generating power over that level you’re on borrowed time. You can make incursions above that and the fitter you get, the longer those incursions can be, but ultimately, if you continue above your LAT, you will relatively quickly accumulate lactic acid to levels that will shut your legs down.

You can also use LAT to more accurately infer your FTP (although the best way is to do a proper one hour effort). Other ways of infering FTP are to take a percentage of your best 20 minute efforts, but using blood lactate reduces the error even further.

There’s no hiding from LAT. Once that red line (CO2) crosses the blue line (VO2) then it doesn’t matter who you are, you’re on borrowed time.

As for where in the power zones it comes, it doesn’t seem right that your FTP comes between Z1 and Z2. It’s in Zone 4 (Threshold).

I don’t really see how knowing a precise result for lactate threshold (and there are lots of definitions of that) from a lab test is that useful either. I’ve got max power figures from field tests for a range of durations (e.g. 1 min, 5 min, 20 min, 1hr) and think these are a lot more useful to me.

I’ve got max power figures from field tests for a range of durations (e.g. 1 min, 5 min, 20 min, 1hr) and think these are a lot more useful to me.

I think the crucial part of that sentence is the ‘to me’ bit.

For me, knowing that I’m on borrowed time above xxx watts is very useful for time trialling. If the road is climbing, and i’m above that level, I know what’s coming, I know not to panic when I do get there, or I can choose to just back off a little.

The other benefit is that your VAT can be trained. Your VO2 max cannot; it’s pretty much genetically determined so the only way you can improve VO2 max is by cheating (blood doping or EPO will raise your VO2 max).

As such, VO2 max is a relatively poor predictor of performance, whereas VAT is much better. If you measure your VAT in month one at 270 watts and then undertake a structured programme of training based around improving that (using a power meter to train around specific zones – which is what the OP should do), and then you measure your VAT at the end of that programme and it’s gone up by 50 watts, then you know you it’s worked; the training programme was right and you should continue on the same structure.

Don’t think you need a lab test to tell you that though. Ran for years and even racing with just a HRM I had known values that if I exceeded i knew, as you say, that I was on borrowed time and would have to back off.

Same now with power. If you ride with power for a while you know what you can sustain and for what duration. I guess having a good known power profile and experience helps in quantifying what that “borrowed time” is. E.g I’m doing 400W, I’m on borrowed time over my threshold, but I know I can stil sustain this for 8 mins before I blow. I don’t think just knowing your threshold tells you much about that.

For me, knowing that I’m on borrowed time above xxx watts is very useful for time trialling. If the road is climbing, and i’m above that level, I know what’s coming, I know not to panic when I do get there, or I can choose to just back off a lit

For this I’d also add that real world max are often different to lab or turbo max as you rarely are able to ride at an exact power at your ideal cadence. You’re always dipping over or under, accelerating and decelerating the pedals with gear changes. So often your 20MP for example may be more on the turbo than on the road. Think it’s important to understand this and how it differs from a training and racing point of view. Again not something knowing some threshold from a lab test will tell you much about.

GeeTee = Are we talking about the same thing? I understood lactate threshold to be the point where your baseline lactate levels jump because the system can no longer clear lactate at the rate it’s produced. It’s unlikely anyone will ever manage to compete at that level because it’s the boundary of Z1 and Z2 and RPE is pretty low.

I was going to retest but I’m facing redundancy and am examining the cost vs benefit. It would be nice to know the aerobic proportion of my power gain but I don’t actually think it will give me any performance advantage because I don’t plan on training on the boundary of Z1/Z2 and my pacing issues in 6/12hr racing is how much time to spend in Z3/4/5 not Z1/Z2.

Adsh, a good article here that goes some way to explaining it and why it’s quite a misunderstood term.

o often your 20MP for example may be more on the turbo than on the road.

Interesting and I agree completely except that for me it’s always the other way around. I find it easier to generate higher levels of power on the road than the turbo, ironically for the same reasons.

Well if you had to choose one over the other… you don’t win races on the turbo!

Well if you had to choose one over the other… you don’t win races on the turbo!

Well quite. Not that I ‘win’ races (open TTs) anyway but that’s obviously not the point.

I agree with gee i find knowing my LT threshold via lab testing very useful. Interestingly I had pretty much already worked out where it was via blowing up in races, so you don’t need to have a lab test. As for the terminology it is confusing, several terms seem to be used interchangably often even though they aren’t. It’s why I got a coach for a period to help teach me.

I also like TCC explanation of going over threshold. He likened them to lighting matches, of which you have a limited supply. During races I keep this in mind and it has made me much more picky and tactical about when I burn those matches.

I agree with gee i find knowing my LT threshold via lab testing very useful. Interestingly I had pretty much already worked out where it was via blowing up in races, so you don’t need to have a lab test.

So what benefit did the actual lab test result give over what you’d already worked out yourself?

Hmmm we are definately talking different things. I took it to mean the lactate blood test that is done at 10w intervals to determine the point at which Z2 starts. Great to quantify gains and aerobic fitness but hardly much use in determining pacing.

Re analogies I prefer bank account. You have an amount of money in the account. The rate at which you spend it determines how long it lasts. You can make additional depoisits but they take time to clear. The trick is to balance spending of carb reserves with depoisits such that you are empty/slightly overdrawn at the end.

You are talking about LT1, there is also LT2 (sometimes called threshold or turnpoint)

A quick google brings this article up which probably explains the confusion better than I can. Basically this is why I got a coach! As long as the two of you agree on the terminology and what it means your on to a winner
http://www.intelligent-triathlon-training.com/lactate-threshold.html

The benefits of the test? – I learned the numbers I should be training to, rather than guessing by trial and error (this is useful). I also learned the power numbers associated to the zones as well (more for interest than use as I don’t have a pm yet). I learned my vo2 max (interesting) and power to weight (interesting). I learned I wasn’t intervalling hard enough. It was used to build a training plan. I had 3 hours of an experienced coach to ask lots and lots of specific questions ranging from xc racing to tt and all inbetween.

Ideally I’d be getting tested monthly and monitoring the improvements / changes. As it is I test annually, though this year I won’t as we’ve just had our first child. Ride data tells me I’m fitter and faster than last season, but it would be nice to confirm it in the lab. Maybe I will just to maintain a decent record.