I never ever imagined I would end up defending the Catholic church but TJ I thnik you are wrong.

Sensible apparoach to AIDS – refuse to do the one proven thing that limits transmission?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/17/pope-africa-condoms-aids

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=19561
Posted 4 hours ago # Report-Post

Abstinence and fidelity as advocated by the Catholic church is another better and proven method which if you are a practising Catholic wouldn’t be a problem.
The Guardian link above does not seems to provide any evidence.Are Catholics disproportionately HIV sufferers in Africa? It’s not just Catholics who are not using condoms.Ignorance ,superstition ,culture and government incompetence are all as much to blame Mandela himself said so.
To lay the blame for the spread of HIV in Africa at the feet of the Catholic church is disingeneous and insulting to say the least. It is also not backed up by evidence.Just look on wikpaedia or at the various HIV charity websites.

nick1962:

Abstinence and fidelity as advocated by the Catholic church is another better and proven method which if you are a practising Catholic wouldn’t be a problem.

Source please? (EDIT: read both those sites, they both put forward my argument below about pragmatism. Eh?)

I’m sort of with TJ on this one insofar as to say *anyone* (yes, that includes a strange old celibate man who tells others how to live their lives as well as others) who says condoms promote HIV/AIDS are absolutely barking.

If you chop your bits off before ever having sex it will also be a similar ‘better and proven method’ but similarly people are just going to ignore it. Best be pragmatic about human behaviour and suggest that condom use would help reduce the spread of the disease, no?

Why would the Catholic church recommend the use of condoms? They promote abstinence outside marriage, telling you that sex outside marriage is a sin and that bad things will happen to you if you ignore their preaching. HIV/AIDS is a (pardon the pun) god-send in that it “proves” them right. In the absence of any other proof of their superstitions, you have to give them some credit for using this to their advantage.

Nick – read the links I gave.

Abstinence and fidelity as advocated by the Catholic church is another better and proven method

Nape – its no use at all as people won’t go for it and also transmission within marriage is an serious issue

The catholic church have a lot of influence in Africa. they use this influence to stop governments distributing condomns if they can and their preachers speak out against using condoms.

they do such things as threaten to remove all aid work from a county if the governments promote condoms, they use their influence to try to get donor countries to only donate if there is a no condom policy. Tehy try to influence UN policy against condom promotion.

The spread lies about condoms

This is responsible for millions of deaths. Millions of deaths that could have been prevented if not for the interference in secular affairs of the catholic church. its unforgivable and indefensible

Condoms and HIV prevention
Condom use is a critical element in a comprehensive, effective and sustainable approach to HIV prevention and treatment. Prevention is the mainstay of the response to AIDS. Condoms are an integral and essential part of comprehensive prevention and care programmes, and their promotion must be accelerated. In 2007, an estimated 2.7 million people became newly infected with HIV. About
45% of them were young people from 15 to 24 years old, with young girls at greater risk of
infection than boys.
The male latex condom is the single, most efficient, available technology to reduce
the sexual transmission of HIV and other sexually transmitted infections.

http://www.unaids.org/en/media/unaids/contentassets/dataimport/pub/basedocument/2009/20090318_position_paper_condoms_en.pdf

By using a condom for sex you are stopping the transfer of bodily fluids between partners, they also help in stopping pregnancies, but then to have pregnancies you need to have sex with someone else, unless you go for artificial insemmination, which defeats the object of sex to start with.

Its the sex thing catholics seem to have problems with.

Unless it involves small boys.

Allegedly.

HIV/AIDS is a (pardon the pun) god-send in that it “proves” them right.

I think you might be confusing that sort of nonsense with the kind of stuff which Christian Right in the United States bible-belt claims. The Catholic Church doesn’t claim that sickness is some form of punishment from God for sinful behavour.

In fact iirc JC made a particular point of associating himself with sick and disable people who weren’t allowed to enter temples because of their “uncleanliness” due to their alleged “sinfulness”. He attempted to nail that myth firmly on the head – much to the disgust of the religious authorities at that time. They later crucified him for his troubles. Apparently.

In fact iirc JC made a particular point of associating himself with sick and disable people

Jeremy Clarkson, or the carpenter from nazareth

Told my daughter (7) in a debate fueled by my wife who is catholic and a roady that actually Jesus was a mountain biker, as you would. She goes to the local CofE primary school and delighted in telling her class and teacher this. Miss Drew did not wholey approve… I’m glad she didn’t add that God rides an Orange!

Ernie as you appear to have come back to the thread can you answer this? I am genuinely interested in how you square this

TandemJeremy – Member
Ernie – I have no issue with the right to worship. My issue is with the influence they have and try to have over the lives of others.

Religion is a regressive force and causes much harm. so whilst I believe they should be free to practice as they wish I detest and abhor the negative effects they have on society as a whole – from the suppression of women in the Muslim world to the millions of deaths from aids in Africa

TJ

If you are a practising Catholic and won’t remain faithful to your wife/husband or have multiple partners or use sex workers then I’d say you ain’t really a practising Catholic so breaking the “using a condom rule” isn’t a big deal surely?
I read your links.Where is the evidence (to borrow one of our favourite phrases)that Catholicism’s view on condom use led to millions of HIV deaths in Africa? It isn’t suggested in any of the articles on the history and spread of HIV from several online sources and it doesn’t suggest that Catholic non condom use is the main issue.
South Africa has nearly 7 million HIV sufferes but only 3 million Catholics.
No need to continue this arguement difference of opinon 🙂 … except to say the spread of HIV in Africa is a terrible tragedy and two middle aged men on an obscure cycling forum arguing ain’t gonna help one jot.

BTW I did critcie the Pope’s view on condoms earlier.
EDIT-Oh and the link about condoms you posted doesn’t break down HIV sufferers into religious denomination.

Its the influence they wield over public policy affecting not just Catholics. its the relentless lies and propaganda they spread agaisnt condom use.

There is loads of evidence of the catholic churchs influence on this if you want to see it.

Ernie the religious authorities at that time in that place stoned people it was the army of occupation that crucified people but only rebel insurgents who they called by the epithet thieves and one group of which were the nazerines .

Abstinence and fidelity as advocated by the Catholic church is another better and proven method

If you think that saying to people “don’t have sex” is sound advice which will prevent the spread of HIV, you’re sadly, sadly mistaken. You can advocate all you like, people aren’t going to stop shagging, even if you tell them god is watching (the mucky old devil).

It isn’t suggested in any of the articles on the history and spread of HIV from several online sources and it doesn’t suggest that Catholic non condom use is the main issue.

What is, then?

I suspect that, being generous, it doesn’t help. I expect that scumbags like Matthias Rath telling them that magic water and vitamins will save them probably doesn’t help matters either. But that’s a whole other rant.

Ernie as you appear to have come back to the thread can you answer this? I am genuinely interested in how you square this

Yes I had noted your previous post. I have no comment to make.

I am not interested in arguing whether religion is a good thing or a bad thing. If you think that on balance religion is a bad thing, then I would suggest that you don’t follow any. I leave it up to you. In the same way as I recognise that it is other people’s personal choice.

No ernie thats not the question

the question is does the right to religious freedom in your opinion include the right to restrict the freedoms of the non religious?

You have very strongly criticised me for my stance on religion – in that I will oppose its influence in the secular world strongly because of the harm it does IMO.

For you is the harm done in the name of religion acceptable price for the freedom to worship?

Yo see its not just the adherents personal choice – the catholic church restricts the freedom of non catholics as one example

As i said before, condoms stop the transmission of body fluids, as well as stopping pregnacies,and gay people dont usually have theuir own babies, unless through artifical insemination and the catholic church is against the 3 , just perhaps like the unions it fears a lack of new members.

the question is does the right to religious freedom in your opinion include the right to restrict the freedoms of the non religious?

No of course not.

But I’m loathed to make that comment to you, because no doubt you are now going to come out with some bollox about sunday trading, or how church bells ringing on a sunday are offensive to nonbelievers.

the catholic church restricts the freedom of non catholics as one example

How?
I thought governments made laws?

Thanks Ernie. I did feel your stance was contradictory but that clears it up.

Nick – as you point out its a pointless debate. How do they do it? By using their influence, money and power.

TJ
You mean like the Trade Unions? 😉
Enough for me now too.
Won’t someone start a bash the Tories thread I miss CFH and his lifestyle snippets 🙂

ernie_lynch – Member
you are now going to come out with some bollox about sunday trading, or how church bells ringing on a sunday are offensive to nonbelievers.

And lo! the Lord did say “thou shallt behold the evidence of my dominion“

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4245966/Isles-fury-over-dispenser-selling-food-on-Sundays.html

Where the hell are the Western Isles ? Sounds like some god-forsaken windswept hellhole far beyond the boundary of civilization.

Down here in Rainbow Valley Croydon, we have devout god-fearing Muslims (mainly Turkish I believe) who keep their shops open 24 hours, including on the Sabbath, just so that hungry infidels need never be left wanting for a pint of milk and Snickers bar. Gawd bless’em.

🙂

oh for fks sake you guys!

Catholic anti-condom, anti-abortion and anti-gay propaganda reaches the whole population not just catholics.

from: Le Renouveau Français est un mouvement d’inspiration contre-révolutionnaire et catholique.

ah, makes me proud to be French … 😕

I thought governments made laws?

They do. Here’s a good one.

The government in Iran is planning to cut off Internet access nationally later in the year. The reason? The Internet “promotes crime, disunity, unhealthy moral content, and atheism”.

The Iranian govt are the mods for stw and I claim my £5

I don’t think religion is to blame there. It’s simply being used as a tool for those in power to stay in power. To me, that’s the real problem.

The reason? The Internet “promotes crime, disunity, unhealthy moral content, and atheism”.

Seems fair enough.

Its the sex thing catholics seem to have problems with.

You couldnt be more wrong, really. 😀 Mrsmitch – get that knitted lovejumper on!

Its the sex thing catholics seem to have problems with.

I had an Irish Catholic boyfriend in my younger days. Oh, what a sexy accent (though I do prefer a nice soft Scottish one or, naturally enough, Welsh!).

He was screwed up inside in at least ten dimensions. Boy did that do my head in. He could do guilt for Ireland!

Strangely enough he had to have open heart surgery a short while after we split, I think too many bacon butties (he wasn’t fat) and stress was doing him no good.

Most probably in a straight marriage you couldn’t be more wrong as barnsleymitch says, if you’re catholic. My catholic schoolfriends seemed to have lots of siblings!

Every sperm is sacred.

I don’t think religion is to blame there. It’s simply being used as a tool for those in power to stay in power. To me, that’s the real problem.

these people who want to stay in power are the clerics of the state religion that runs everything…you think they dont actually believe the religion and have done it just for power?
Sure non religious authoritarian regimes do this but there is a clear link in this case between religion and their actions.

scuzz – Member
I don’t think religion is to blame there. It’s simply being used as a tool for those in power to stay in power.

What do you think religion is? Do you think the bible isn’t written to maintain the power of the church?

Strewing one’s hard-won sea jewels past some of the contributors on this thread, is a guarantee that one will see them in tomorrow’s bacon sandwich…

these people who want to stay in power are the clerics of the state religion that runs everything…you think they dont actually believe the religion and have done it just for power?
Sure non religious authoritarian regimes do this but there is a clear link in this case between religion and their actions.

I don’t think it’s absurd to suggest that this may be the case.

What do you think religion is? Do you think the bible isn’t written to maintain the power of the church?

This is in effect my point.
There needs to be a clearer differentiation between personal religion (such as one’s beliefs) and power-through-religion.

The former is in my oppinion completely fine (see TJ’s ‘consenting adults in private’) and is in accordance with the central ‘love everyone’ theme that the religious on these threads are pushing.

The latter is (to me) unacceptable – as soon as you extrapolate personal beliefs onto others, especially as a means of control, you’ve lost sight of (dare I say it) the personal philosophical parts and turned ‘religion’ into a hollow shell designed to manipulate and enslave.

Let’s avoid ranting at people in the former category as if they were in the latter.

Scuzz
Hammer/Nail interface

Scuzz
Hammer/Nail interface

+ a lot

Let’s avoid ranting at people in the former category as if they were in the latter.

In the same way that a tiny tiny tiny minute, almost invisible fraction of Muslims are of the terrorist Jihad sort, a tiny tiny tiny minute, almost invisible fraction of Christians are the “God hates Gays, burn in hell” sorts. Sadly, it is these microscopic numbers that are given all the press and so the world views the religions as what these people portray.

True and proper Christianity, as would be applied to the VAST majority of Christians out there, is not about doing things to gain favour with God, it is not about seeing yourself as above others, it is not about being intolerant to homosexuals or different races or whoever, it is not about pushing your ideas and beliefs on other people. It is quite simply about living your life caring for those who need it, loving whoever you meet and interact with, and just generally being decent. Which is also the same as the VAST majority of people on planet earth. Which kind of confuses me as to why there is such vitriol poured out on Christians some times?

On top of that Christians have the belief that we have a God who is looking out for us and helping us and cares for us and so there isn’t anything in this life that we really have to worry about. Again, this is sometimes ridiculed as being a ‘crutch’ to lean on when things are bad. So if I carry on as normal and am not fazed by things such as potential redundancy at work, financial trouble, illness, death etc, that is a bad thing? It doesn’t mean those don’t cause me problems, of course they do and as much as anyone else, but for some reason the fact that I might be able to not get stressed and worked up about it (and caveat here that of course there are non-christians who do the same) is deemed a bad thing? It isn’t ever meant by anyone as an ‘ooh we are better than you’ sort of thing, that’s just our belief and you know what it is a great comfort to know it when times are hard.

Sorry for the slight thread derailment, just sticking it on the tracks as I finish. Just wanted to try and tidy up some misconceptions that people have.