Looking at the specs, the diesel TT (quattro) is only 10kg heavier than the 2L petrol Quattro.
They are both ~100 kg heavier than the 2wd 2L variants, which suggests that the difference in weight/handling has more to do with the quattro drive system than the engine.

Might be getting a little off the original thread now though!

More on the Iceni

8spd Auto
6.6 V8
1200 kg.

schrickvr6 – I bought my Ibiza with a VT2 on it but it expired after 5k miles so Allards replaced it (not sure what with as they didn't have any VT2s left) & its now running 220-240ish depending on map, Forge FMIC, TT Quattro brake conversion & Sachs clutch – been fine for 25k miles now, got over 60mpg coming back from Afan the other week but I can get it down in the high 20s if I rag it a lot. Tyres aren't to bad – getting about 8k miles out of the front Toyo's.

Diesel rocks.
petrol drinkers are luddites.
whats not to like about a modern diesel?
Its all about the torque.

the only downside i know of is the weight of them, but thats dropping anyway.
they no longer have to be cast iron i dont think?
my poor motos powerpack is cast iron and has to have 3 additional pumps, so is quite porky at the front, but its a mini estate, not a sports car.

HDiTD would be my preference. they feel very different to a TDi.

personal preference though

that trident thing ROCKS!
its gooorgeous

whats not to like about a modern diesel?
Its all about the torque.

Why is it all about torque?

Why is it all about torque?

In gear acceleration – look at the 30-50 & 40-70mph times for diesels – regularly seconds quicker than petrols!

So is that what it is all about? It isn't about overall handling ability due to a lower front-end weight, it isn't about a flexible engine that you can bung into 2nd at 60 going into a corner to engine brake and be ready to accelerate through? It isn't about being able to accelerate from 30 to 80 in one gear? It isn't about 0-60 times?

It is simply about being able to accelerate a little quicker than some petrol engines at certain points?

In that case, then yes, diesels are better.

Apart from making your hands stink and leaving greasy residue on the soles of your shoes ready to slip off the brake as you barrel into a corner…

😉

whats not to like about a modern diesel?

The noise.
The muck they chuck out.
The noise.
The lack of outright go.
The noise.
The evangelistic owners.
The noise.
The sluggish response.
The noise.

They have a use. In vans, tractors, trucks and taxis. But NOT in sports cars, or any car of an even remotely "sporty" nature.

HDiTD would be my preference. they feel very different to a TDi.

Be careful there: you're getting engine types mixed up with manufacturer name. The TDis to which you refer are generally the VAG cars, which use the PD (unit injector) system. However, they also use the TDi moniker for their 3.0 V6 TDi, which is a common rail engine like the HDis/TDCis etc. IIRC Vauxhall also call their cars (C)DTis, when they're also CR engines.

No, it's okay Jimbo – they are briefly quick at 30-50mph.

Looking at the specs, the diesel TT (quattro) is only 10kg heavier than the 2L petrol Quattro.
They are both ~100 kg heavier than the 2wd 2L variants, which suggests that the difference in weight/handling has more to do with the quattro drive system than the engine.

Yes, hence:

…I think the heavier engine and addition of 4WD probably takes the edge off the handling balance that they achieved with the 2WD 2.0T.

Generally the 2.0T 2WD variant of the TT has had its handling praised as being pretty good. Handling of the other derivatives usually compares less favourably in most comparative verdicts.

A sports car has bugger all to do with in gear acceleration times, its about being able to keep your momentum going and getting back on the throttle as quick as you can.

I can't say I have driven a performance diesel for a while, the last I drove was a 330d about 5 years ago, and although very quick, you still had to think alot more about planinng gear changes, and anticipating the slight lag.

Of course if some one wants to lend me a nice TT diesel I am willing to be proven wrong 🙂

No, it's okay FunkyDunc – they are briefly quick at 30-50mph.

😉

Seriously – I can see the draw of a performance diesel for most road users – most of them can't drive for toffee when it comes to cornering but are happy to point it on a straight and get past the car in front. And they are good for that.

But for those of us who know about road positioning, braking zones, apexes, straightening corners, left foot braking would almost all prefer a proper petrol engine that will rev freely up to 7 or 8k+ and give us the flexibility to use the much broader power band and minimise gear changes. They are simply more balanced.

And if you're driving 'sportingly' most likely on a twisty A road you are going to accelerating from 30 – 50 a lot & its safer for overtaking.

And if you're driving 'sportingly' most likely on a twisty A road you are going to accelerating from 30 – 50 a lot & its safer for overtaking.

And if you're doing that, you'll be using these things called GEARS.

its safer for overtaking.

If you are going for a gap in a performance diesel that wouldn't be 'there' for a similar performance petrol car, then you are not overtaking safely in any sense of the words…

Ok look. I like diesels. I like the noise, I like the torque availability, I like cruising at low revs, I prefer the smell and the lower CO2 emissions. I'm not looking for a racing car, just something nippy that handles nicely. I don't care if I'm not the fastest thing on the road, and I don't like having to work through the gears to get anywhere. I like the feeling of accelerating reasonably briskly but effortlessly at low revs.

Sure I'd like to be able to drive flat out in a really fast car (and yes I know all about braking zones, apexing corners and stuff thanks) but that's just not possible without going on track days. Anyone who does that on a public road should be beaten to within an inch of their lives and have their license taken away. So given that it's a public road with traffic and such, only modest speeds are possible. So there's no point in getting a car that needs twice as much fuel to just tease me with the potential that I won't be able to fill. Burning down sliproads on suburban dual carriageways just doesn't do it for me I'm afraid.

Sweet handling, well balanced, good pace – the flowing singletrack analogy, is all about light weight and balance – as much the balance of engine revs, speed and chassis handling, as the physical weight balance.

By that I meant appreciating the flow of a road, not going for absolute maximum speed in a white knuckle road. I am not an adrenaline junky.

I suppose if you are going to get anal about the definition of a sportscar then a GT or roadster is indeed what I want.

And if you're doing that, you'll be using these things called GEARS.

To me, changing up and down all the time is a faff.

Molgrips – I don't think anyone is having a go at you for wanting a diesel (your money, your choice). I think it is more aimed at those that seem to think that diesels offer a better performance solution than petrol engines.

You clearly don't – you just want a strongly pulling, sporty feeling diesel.

🙂

Thankyou MF 🙂

Quite tempted to bin my Passat, steal its engine and try and put it something nippier, on account of how easy it is to tune up the old VW TD.

This thread is a stormer.

Molgrips how about an automatic VW Beetle soft top? It'll waft you down the shops with zero gearchanges, and it won't have enough grunt to spill your chai-latte-mocha-frappucino all over the beige leather seats. They do a special matching handbag for thrashing irresponsible drivers with, and if you sign up before the end of July you get a free course of HRT.

To me, changing up and down all the time is a faff.

It's also a BIG part of the whole "sports car" thing. 50% of your involvement!

If it's a faff, why not get an auto? 😉

About the only new car I like the look of, and it comes with a Diesel engine option…

Anyone who does that on a public road should be beaten to within an inch of their lives and have their license taken away.

That's me **** then given essentially that's how I was taught to drive.

Well a TT may not be a sports car by purists standards but it's better than an auto beetle isn't it?

Bugger off and get back to watching Top Gear repeats on Dave. Wouldnt' want to miss Tw*tson telling you what to think eh?

If it's a faff, why not get an auto?

My other car's an auto. And I like having control, I just don't like having to change gear to get things to happen. I get a choice in a diesel depending on how I feel.

Fingerbike – what's that? The bluesport?

I must admit – that new Scirocco (above) looks great and shares the same engine as the TT in 2.0l Turbo variant (no idea about the diesel, but I would assume it is the same too)

Nobody who has the first clue about driving cars for pleasure listens to anything Clarkson says.

The VW Beetle has been the most popular car in the repressed-tight-fisted-pseudo-sporty sector for 4 years running, it'd be a great choice.

Has anyone here driven a 'new' Beetle?

It feels like you are sat at the other side of a large table trying to look out of the windscreen.

New Scirocco comes with the 2.0 170bhp 258Lbs/ft TDI engine, can get it with the DSG gearbox option too, I'd like to own one one day…
A friend had a TDI engine conversion in a Corrado, went very well, stayed level with the VR6 up to illegal speeds…

The VW Beetle has been the most popular car in the repressed-tight-fisted-pseudo-sporty sector for 4 years running, it'd be a great choice.

It's not at all quick though is it, by anyone's standards? Or sporty. And it looks naff nowadays.

Here's one for you: Leon TDI Cupra vs Golf GT TDI vs the Sirocco?

Been having similar thoughts myself about swapping the Civic Type R and getting a relatively quick diesel. The new Golf GTD is probably top of my list. Looked at the BMW 123D Coupe and Audi TTD and although they look and perform slightly better than the Golf, I think the Golf is the better all rounder (looks, performance, practicality, comfort, etc).

Scirrocco 2.0 TDI GT is also meets the criteria.

Whilst we're on hot hatches, what about the Honda Civic diesel? It's meant to do 0-60 in 8.4 or something.

molgrips – Member
Ok look. I like diesels. I like the noise, I like the torque availability, I like cruising at low revs, I prefer the smell and the lower CO2 emissions. I'm not looking for a racing car, just something nippy that handles nicely. I don't care if I'm not the fastest thing on the road, and I don't like having to work through the gears to get anywhere. I like the feeling of accelerating reasonably briskly but effortlessly at low revs.

+1

we should get a secret handshake or something.

its totally swings and roundabouts!
its like comparing a hardtail to a FS, neither is better, they just do it differently!
some people just cant ride HTs, no matter how hard they try, they dont have the ability to adapt

But for those of us who know about road positioning, braking zones, apexes, straightening corners, left foot braking would almost all prefer a proper petrol engine that will rev freely up to 7 or 8k+ and give us the flexibility to use the much broader power band and minimise gear changes. They are simply more balanced.

what a stupid comment

you COULD minimise your gear changes, by reving up to 8k revs,
OR
how about, you could minimise your gear changes by not bothering to change down in the first place, because you have 3 times the torque of an equivelent petrol and dont NEED to. you also have a stonking great turbo, which would be useless to a petrol driving mortal, but as you have embraced the power of the oily stuff, you know exactly where to blip the accelerator* to get the best out of it.

(*not a throttle, throttles are for girls)

1:swings
2:roundabouts
3:swings
4:roundabouts
5:GOTO line1, repeat

Photos are funny aren't they?

Scirocco looks great in press photos, but the ones that I have seen in the flesh look all wrong. Like a squished, flattened Golf with a fat @rse (IMO of course).

On the other hand the Alfa MiTo looks really weird and boggle eyed in photos, but is really quite handsome in the metal. If you really want a hot hatch…. the Alfa MiTo GTA is due out sometime soon, and in the proper traditions of Afla GTAs, the MiTo will reportedly be lightened as well as being given more power etc.

what a stupid comment

It is only a stupid comment if you do not understand how to drive a car quickly. Two things make it very difficult to drive a diesel as quickly as a similarly powered petrol car for example a TT versus a TT diesel.

The first is the extra weight making the vehicle unbalanced, meaning slower entry speeds and therefore less momentum and considerably slower exit speeds.

The second being the wonderful thing you keep mentioning – torque. YOu get a sudden rush of power over a very limited rev range – not only does this mean you will be changing gear sooner than the petrol (meaning more loss of time), it also means that you have to get the car much straighter on the exit of a corner before flooring it, otherwise understeer becomes your friend again. That and wheelspin.

But of course you knew all that didn't you?

Agreed on the Scirrocco. Looks great from some angles, but like Feargal Sharkey's face from other angles.

And out of curiosity, I just checked the power output on the TT standard 2.0l turbo (not the higher output 270bhp 2.0l one) v the TT Diesel turbo

The petrol… 200bhp @ 5100-6000 Max torque 280 @ 1800-5000

The diesel… 170bhp @ 4200 Max torque 350 @ 1750-2500

So – a usable 200bhp over a near 1k rev range, as opposed to a short peak of 170 just ONLY at 4200 revs.

And a max torque of 280 over 3200 revs, as opposed to 350 over just 750 revs.

Quite simply, diesels are not as flexible as petrol cars. They just go from 30-50 more quickly sometimes – but the petrol can use its 280 torque over a much longer range than the equivalent diesel – it would be interesting to see how the torque drops off either side of the max power on the diesel…

OR
how about, you could minimise your gear changes by not bothering to change down in the first place, because you have 3 times the torque of an equivelent petrol and dont NEED to. you also have a stonking great turbo, which would be useless to a petrol driving mortal, but as you have embraced the power of the oily stuff, you know exactly where to blip the accelerator* to get the best out of it.

But that's the whole point of this, err, debate… using torque in that way just doesn't work when it come to handling in the twisties. Drop to third, turn in, balance the car on the throttle – doesn't work in any diesel car I've driven. You either drop off boost and end up with a lumpen response mid corner, or get a whole gobfull of torque that unbalances the chassis.

I (foolishly) tried to use engine torque instead of revs for cornering during a test ride of a litre V twin sports bike a few years ago… Yes the V twin motor picked up nicely from low revs / high gear in a straight line – but trying to exit a corner using the engine's ample torque saw me run wide of my planned line and thanking my luck that nothing was coming the other way.

And I do currently drive a diesel car… great when your on the motorway / dual carriageway, big cruising A road. Acceptable / good straight line acceleration, especially for overtaking, but even after 18 months still can't get used to the lumpy (ie unbalanced) power delivery out of corners, at roundabouts, pulling out of junctions etc.

If it wasn't for the Government's biased revenue collection I'd have a petrol engined vehicle

I am enjoying this LOL!

YOu get a sudden rush of power over a very limited rev range – not only does this mean you will be changing gear sooner than the petrol

I dunno about that, in the ones I've driven that's been entirely controllable by the driver. Sure, if you stomp your foot to the boards as soon as you hit the apex it might be a problem, but why do that and cause trouble when you dont' have to? The torque figures are MAX torque, you do have control over it.

You do change gear sooner in the petrol on a long open straight ie if you were on a track – but in real windy country roads where the corners are sharper and the road narrower I think it's better to have torque on tap whenever you need it to avoid more gear changes. DISCLAIMER: I have never driven a well-balanced turbo petrol which as I understand it can have tons of low down torque as well so the above may not apply.

I'm glad I bought a Diesel now because diesel is (in some palces) now the same price as petrol.

Was a different story a year or so ago.

The difference in power delivery does take some getting used to. I had a petrol version of my current car which on paper is the same speed, but the engine felty like it had no guts.