I aren't Brant but they built machines for us that used a fair number of parts and on some of them as there were motorised moving parts they needed to be able to get alignment good and with good tolerances. I wasn't trying to say that this particular company could fab bike frames, and as I said there is a good chance they they wouldn't want to as well. But IME (which isn't massive by any means) there still are a number of SME fabricators in the UK, they do have good skills and may be able to do the job.

If you could get some proper CAD drawings done you could try ringing round and trying to get quotes for 20/50/100 off frames. If you could specify tubes to use and maybe any parts (BB,Head tube, cable guides/stops etc).

If I was serious about doing this I'd probably get some UK bespoke frames made up as prototypes to get the ride feel right. One at a time so that I could get the ride feel right with each iteration. Maybe lend one to STW or someone similar, friends etc to get their opinion. Once I was happy with a frame design I'd get it drawn up and then go out for tenders.

So at the end of the day you could lose 2 or 3 grand just prototyping and when and if you get quotes back find that it is economically not viable.

For me it'd definitely be a post lottery win project. Too much in debt and too cowardly otherwise.

so you can buy an off-the-peg, brazed and lugged road frame, built in leeds for £380 from bob jackson.

1. what's the quality of a bob jackson frame like?

2. does bob jackson have the ability and technical knowledge to produce a welded mtb frame?

3. if the answers to 1 & 2 are favouirable, how much would they charge?

EDIT; looking at the bob jackson website it all seems to be road bikes, so they either consider mtb to be the devils own work or the answer to question 2 is no.

EDIT2; or they don't see a market for uk built mtb frames!

or alternatively, can you buy a brazed and lugged road frame of camparable quality to bob jackson, built in china or taiwan and if so how much are they?

Lincolnshire Poacher?

£245 without fork

although that has fancier lugs I think.

or alternatively, can you buy a brazed and lugged road frame of camparable quality to bob jackson, built in china or taiwan and if so how much are they?

Lincolnshire Poacher?

£245 without fork

although that has fancier lugs I think.

What he said ——^

Although as Brant said, not all luggs are created equal. And Fixie-inc (IIRC) are knocking out welded and painted 953 frames for £1000, and I don't remember them being made in the UK! Which I guess proves that brand/material kudous can be worth more than the frame!

[dribbling]
Mercian in Derby make dribble worthy XC bikes, If I won the lottery I'd get one (well, probably several) made up in subtle variations of the Paul Smith colours [/dribbling]

So in summary, identical frames, to make it in the UK is 50% more (at least).

thisisnotaspoon – So in summary, identical frames, to make it in the UK is 50% more (at least).

ditto

There's only one problem stopping a UK built frame being a viable option and that's start-up capital.

To say that a UK company can't compete with the far-east in manufacturing is nonsense. HOPE seem to shift a fair bit of kit, often competing against massive companies such as Shimano and SRAM.

HOPE seem to shift a fair bit of kit, often competing against massive companies such as Shimano and SRAM.

Your thought process would work if you wanted to CNC this frame out of billet aluminium.

There's only one problem stopping a UK built frame being a viable option and that's start-up capital.

Start-up is great. A sustainable business model is even better.

I think you'll find production overheads per unit relatively high.

Just to stick my oar in at this late stage, I did quite a lot of research into doing things in the UK when I started Cotic, and there are plenty of people out there who could do it, but to be quite honest none of them were in the least bit interested. Anyone who can build bike frame materials to proper quality and tolerances is either doing motorsport or defence contracting. Both of these industries have vast quantities of money sloshing around them, and a habit of "JFDI, I need it tomorrow evening, here's the cash" type behaviour. I guess it's the high quality, low-volume thing in a nutshell, but basically nobody wanted the business.

Your thought process would work if you wanted to CNC this frame out of billet aluminium.

Sorry Brant I forgot that all that Hope do is have an un-skilled ludite throw a lump of aluminium into a cheap-as-chips CNC machine and out pops a complete disc brake, headset, wheelset. Each component fully built complete with all carbon, rubber and steel parts fitted ready to go. It must look like Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory at Hope.

cy – just out of interest, when you were trying to find a UK manufacturer how many frames were you asking them to build compared to how many frames you sell per year now?

Jim – i think he means (and rightly so) that you can't really compare Hope with Shimano or SRAM, different production techniques and approaches and business model.

Make sense?

C CNC machine is a CNC machine wherever it is in the world it will cost near enough the same.

R&D costs the same wherever you build the frame (bacause it will be in the UK)

The only think hope have to pay more in yorkshire than in tiawan is labour, and I'm guessing the average employee can make up quite a few brakes/hubs/headsets per hour, even bleeding takes a matter of seconds with the right kit (a vacumn hose). So as aproportion of their costs, its probably minimal.

Welding a frame takes much longer, and much more skill, and therefore costs more.

Are Pace frames made in the UK and are they more expensive than similar Tiawanese made frames?

Pace, Whyte etc are all made itn he far east (as far as I know). They seem to justify the higher costs with more intricate dropouts, tube shapes etc. I think Pace may paint in the uk, though.

cy – Premier Member

Just to stick my oar in at this late stage, I did quite a lot of research into doing things in the UK when I started Cotic, and there are plenty of people out there who could do it, but to be quite honest none of them were in the least bit interested. Anyone who can build bike frame materials to proper quality and tolerances is either doing motorsport or defence contracting. Both of these industries have vast quantities of money sloshing around them, and a habit of "JFDI, I need it tomorrow evening, here's the cash" type behaviour. I guess it's the high quality, low-volume thing in a nutshell, but basically nobody wanted the business.

I too know that there are people who have the capability to build frames in the UK, apart from butting tube, that's not in my sphere. The OP's point was given the changing economic weather maybe it could this make this more attractive to UK companies now. With lean and short run production taking over in the UK I can see the possibilities.

bob jackson replaced a tube and repainted a frame of mine it cost more than the price of a 456 which i later bought . And the 456 rode better . I couldnt care less where it was made as long as it rides nice and is a good price which seemingly isnt an option with uk built frames it one or other or neither lol. For the op im sure its possible but i imagine it would be hard for people to see past the price tag for the sake of a flag on the frame.im more interested in the guy who designed the frame than where it was put together ie id rather ride a brant/cy bike made abroad than a fancy new name new on the block but made in uk. Igmc 🙂

a no name brand will struggle to break into the market, especially if they are the same price or more than existing brands. With the price of an on-one or a cotic etc why would you buy a no name, un tested frame for more? to me on-one, cotic, 18-bikes etc etc are available with ease, have direct support (even on this forum) now you cannot get better than that, how much support do you see on forums from other companies? in a nut shell they have cornered the market! and tbh if it rides well, has a history of being good and reliable, has Uk support all at their low prices who really cares where it was actually built? now a lot on here have an on-one, in fact I would almost say it has a cult following on the 456…. small uk, personal service and support and very cheap to buy. fine its made in Taiwan, but how can you compete with that?

I dont think it is likely that you can shift 2 frames per day, every day? if £200k profit was that easy, others would have done it!

Personally I would not want to go head to head with cotic, on-one, orange or for that matter any other frame makers… trying to get a name for yourself above them would be nigh on impossible.

I think an assumption has been made, are your 1st frames going to be an instant success that ride perfectly and appear in top reviews? many designs will be ditched and it could take years to get a good design, even then it may not get any reviews never mind top test marks from MBUK, Singletrack, MBR etc all it would take is 1 bad review and game over.

Living the dream sounds great and should you try it. good luck, you will need it

Blimey I’ve wasted a long time reading this thread…

The debate is an old one now, and as much as people often like to state their support for “British Products” their personal beliefs are often significantly watered down when it comes to parting with more cash for a frame.
You simply will not produce a comparable product in the UK for the same price as the far east, I actually think the “British Brand – Far eastern manufacture” isn’t a bad business model when you’re trying to sell to a market where Value for money does actually count… Say what you like Dialled, Cotic, On-one, DMR, etc all sell products that meet both the functional AND cost expectations of their customers…

Most of the sprouting on this thread have assumed an “All in house” approach which if you’re even going to attempt production of most products in the UK is a Non starter, to produce a batch of 100 frame you have to consider there is something in the region of 2000(?) individual operations (bending, mitring, welding/brazing, aligning, painting, etc) and whilst having a one stop shop for all of these quite different tasks would be nice those few that do exist and not really geared up for large batches (frame builders), what we do have in this country still are a few businesses that specialise in certain operations Machinists, sheet metal/tubing cutting and bending, fabricators, paint shops/platers. If you were going to try and batch manufacture a frame in the UK you would have to be mental not to try and source the different operations from different suppliers, the major advantages are you don’t have to locate skilled trained up labour, you don’t have to absorb the cost of production errors/reworks (suppliers is liable) you don’t have to layout money up front for tooling/machinery, you don’t have to find production premises (you may have to find storage though for the finished products), operations can be carried out in parallel/smaller batches to shorten lead times and get products to market faster. In short good procurement and delegation is what would give you a fighting chance of hitting a key price point with a UK manufactured bike frame.

The Major downside is of course that each business you deal with will add a margin to the services they provide but unless your start-up is incredibly well funded there is no way you could bring all the work required to manufacture something as complex as a bike frame under one roof from day one…

I’ve never worked in the bike industry but I have worked in manufacturing/engineering and I’ve yet to work on any product where all parts and processes were sourced from one location or business.

Of course all of the above manufacturing services can be found under one roof…. In Taiwan

Of course the first consideration is marketing, which is not just placing the odd advert or chucking up a website; But the primary function of establishing an actual market for the product, you might want a 650B Soft tail with an Eccentric BB but are there more than 3 other people on the planet who want one too? And if there is a demand what price point is it at? And does the “Made in the UK” label hold any sway with your target market? This should be your starting point, and sometimes there’s a gap in the market for a reason…

even then it may not get any reviews never mind top test marks from MBUK, Singletrack, MBR etc all it would take is 1 bad review and game over.

are people really that naive? most reviews aren't worth the paper they are written on.

all it would take is 1 bad review and game over.

Pastey Ti Howler…

are people really that naive? most reviews aren't worth the paper they are written on.

really? you honestly think that if a new company starting up gets a bad review on the net and in mags , they would survive and get great sales? most people search the net and read mags for reviews, ok an exising brand may survive a bad model or 2 but a new company would sink.. at start up a company has only 1 thing, the quality of its product, they have no reputation to go on, no existing client base, just their new, un tested, unknown product, a review can lauch them into the limelight. And word of mouth of reviews spreads fast in the industry… you know the "what about this new frame", "yea had it or read a review and it was not good, stick to the known brands" Big existing companies live of their track record, Cove, Specialized, Trek etc, they are known and you cannot go wrong, small brands live only on their rep and word of mouth as well as reviews.. who would buy a no name bike especially with any bad reviews. Is a new frame going to instantly get top votes, reviews and word of mouth? I doubt it

that said if your the king of person would who splashes £500-600 on a no name frame with no history, then you obv have more money than sense. I can think of quite a few frame makers who have lauched to fame through reviews, which lead to word of mouth on forums. A review speaks 10,000 words once people start to talk about it!

all companies start out as no name small brands.

look, i apologise because this is going off on another tangent and i'm adding to it.

but

CrAsH…tEsT..RiDeR – most people…read mags for reviews

do they?

and

CrAsH…tEsT..RiDeR – if your the king of person would who splashes £500-600 on a no name frame with no history, then you obv have more money than sense.

if you're the kind of person who splashes out £500-£600 on any frame because a commercial publication said it was good when that same commercial publication runs full page adverts for the manufacturer involved, then you too obviously have more money than sense!

i'll try and be quick here, i used to work with a bloke who many years previous was a test rider for bsa motorcycles, he was testing at mira one day and in the canteen was talking to a tester from motorcycle news who was testing a new bmw flat twin. the bike broke down twice, had several faults, lacked power and handled poorly, basically the tester thought it was a bag of shit. the following wednesday, the report was in motorcycle news… no mention of faults or short comings, handled well, plenty of power, basically the bike was brilliant!

there's more, there's an independant publication called trail bike magazine, the editor/owner, si melber, once published a letter from yamaha explaining how they were unhappy with a report he gave on one of their bikes and threatened to withdraw there advertising with him!

sorry, there's more still, bike magazine once tested a ducati 900ss, in the test they commented that it was a great bike and an improvement over last years model which suffered with several problems (they listed them but i can't remember). i pulled the copy out of my collection with the test to which they refered, nothing, nowt, zilch… basically it was a great bike the year before too!

i suggest you should buy magazines in order to see what is available (so you can look at it and make up your own mind) and look at the well staged and airbrushed photography.

again, apologies for continueing to go off on this tangent.

all companies do start off as no name brands but they dont all try to start off with a uk built highish price frame they start small and cheaper and expand improve as they grow. as on-one did they went from cheap end to now offering high end carbon and ti options (as well as cheap still :-). I think they would have found it more difficult if they had arrived on the scene offering a thousand quid frame right from the off and not ouch else. Imo anyway

Great thread this with lots of interesting points. I've got a thought about the market and its volume which leads me to the conclusion you need a long term vision. Where do yu want the factory or product or company in 10 years? If (big if) there is a market now for a niche uk, quality frame will that market continue or will it sell out or change? If it sells out or changes you have to move with (or even ahead of) the change to survive. Frequent changes mean more costs and I suspect you end up trying to compete with very large and established companies – that's hard. Stay small and low cost/investment from the start, don't sell out the niche, make an okay living perhaps but you don't get rich quick.

I'm intrigued by on-one and some of the things they've done. Take the Ti456. They percieved a market based on affordable bike biult by a top Western welder/biulder – they sell a bundle of Lynskey biult frames. They are about to change to another biulder and my guess is far eastern. I guess they acknowledge some customers will be put off by that but other benefits (a drop in price, or a gucci engraved head tube and tapered stays) will attract others so they sell to a slightly differnt niche for a while and make a little bundle more. 6 months later they offer another small tweak, different drop outs or something and sell some more to another little niche. It seems very smart marketing. Harder to do that if the frames are being biult in the uk? Or easier?

interesting thread , one thing that is not true from my dealings with my Taiwanese agent Rick Tsai is he is incredibly proud of chinese background , I guess it would need an entire thread of its own .

" call someone from Taiwan chinese would really annoy them "

The true original Taiwanese islanders are very much in the minority in Taiwan , I seem to remember they are referred to by the "chinese Taiwanese" as aborigines . The chinese that came over with Chang Kai Shek came with thousands of years of heritage and dynasties , they havent lost the belief they are chinese .

It really is very fascinating , I dont know it all but the Taiwanese people we deal with are very proud of the chinese origin , I think the comment was "chinese history Taiwanese freedom" but i was probably hammered at the time to take it all in watching Brant downing a red chilli chicken concoction .

Anyway – completely off tangent and Ill get me coat .

Great thread, really interesting

Am I correct in thinking that Orange are the only volume cycle manafacturer in the UK. Like Hope the key thing here is that they use a high capital cost method of production.

The business I've wondered about is custom made but in Taiwan. Some one here chats to customers , measures them etc. They agree a design with the customerand the send it electronically to Taiwan.

Some time later the customer gets a frame

Mick, true but i just thing the "don't do it because some one else is already better" attitude a bit silly, that was more my point

Ampthill, you'd loose all the reasoning for going to Taiwan. they like volume, thats where some of the cost is absorbed, they set the jig up once and do 200 frames, if they had to start from scratch every time they'd get a lot more expensive

Having read this thread, I know why they changed the colour of the original Inbred.

Two Wongs don't make a white.