The freeholder of the property I have a leasehold flat in owns half the garden at the back of the property; I ‘own’ the other half. There is no access to his land other than through my flat and he has not right of access. Therefore the land lies unused and overgrown and has done for many years. The house is in Zone 2 in North London. The land is about 5m x 15m.
How much should I offer him for it? Rumour is that he thinks he can build on it, but no-one would let him and it has no access.

the actual answer is “Somewhere between what you think you can get it for and what he thinks he can get for it”. there’s no hard and fast guide sadly.

Based on info provided, between £100,000 – £120,000.

One meeeeelion dollars?

Land opposite us in Hove that’s about the same area but an L shape went for £65000 couple of years back. It did have access and they’ve built a garage on it.

I’d reckon double that in London – particularly as you’re in a position to gain access if you buy it.

between what you think you can get it for and what he thinks he can get for it

That’s what I figured.

between £100,000 – £120,000

No chance it’s not worth that much. It’s only really worth anything to me and the foxes that live in it.
i.e. I was going to offer a tenth of that.

To be more helpful, check the prices of local flats with gardens – it would be great if you could find two flats identical to yours with gardens the size of the half / full amount of land, but failing that two similar flats with different sized gardens. That will help you work out what value it might add. You then need to work out if the increased garden size is worth that much to you and offer accordingly

No chance it’s not worth that much. It’s only really worth anything to me and the foxes that live in it.

He can just wait till you’ve moved on…

What does the lease from which you derive title say about access?

How many other flats are there?

It’s an asset for him. You will be the only one to gain from the purchase so he will aim to get as much as possible for it. If he thinks he can build it will be more (even if he cannot build he believes it to be development land).
Here’s a crazy idea – ask how much he’d be willing to sell it for. It won’t be cheap.

Clear it, treat as your own bit of open space.

it would be great if you could find two flats identical to yours with gardens the size of the half / full amount of land

There is one at the end of the terrace (we are mid-terrace) that is a smaller flat (about 80% of the size) but has a garden bigger than ours. It’s value is quite a bit lower than ours which makes me think that the bigger garden doesn’t add much value, hence me thinking it wouldn’t add much value to mine.

What does the lease from which you derive title say about access?
How many other flats are there?

It doesn’t mention access and there is none inferred in diagrams. There are 5 flats.

OP, we need an MS Paint picture – can’t think of many situations where half a garden doesn’t border a neighbour’s property and thereby provide another interested party. Roads, buildings, railway lines?

nbt has already answered what I was thinking.

You’re in a better bargaining position than him IMO, assuming you’re not too emotionally invested in getting your hands on it.

Make an offer and leave it with him, follow up the next year adding 20% or whatever.

He’s unlikely to be inundated with rival offers.

A mate of mine bought a similar sized piece of land off his neighbour to extend his garden. Rural Yorkshire 15 years ago. £30k. The other two houses in the terrace also bough similar sized chunks for the same price.

I’d guess 100K as a minimum.

Here’s a crazy idea – ask how much he’d be willing to sell it for.

I’ve written him a letter already asking the same, just not sent it yet.

Clear it, treat as your own bit of open space.

I am thinking of offering to ‘maintain’ it for him (there are trees that need chopping down) and in return he lets me use it.

There is no access to his land other than through my flat and he has not right of access.

Through the actual flat  rather than across your external piece of land?

How long is your lease? Assuming he has freehold over the entire set of flats it could be worth more as a long term option than selling now.
What do you want it for? As just a garden if so would just see if he was willing to lease it either including it into the main lease or standalone.

Clear it. Use it as your own. Keep a pictorial record of the clearance work and your subsequent use of the land. Then in 10 years you can claim it as yours through right of occupation.

No chance it’s not worth that much. It’s only really worth anything to me and the foxes that live in it.
i.e. I was going to offer a tenth of that.

Feel free to offer that. Problem is, you offer something daft the owner is likely to then do some research and get a professional opinion, which will probably result in a price closer to £100,000 being asked for.

I’d offer £50,000 and hope you catch them in a good mood.

And if you can…. defo speak to him …. Dont write a letter !!

Looks to official/serious and will give him time to think/up his price before replying.

Casually ask

Good luck

I’m a little confused. They own the freehold to the property and half of the garden and you own the freehold to half the garden? Or do they own it all and you lease the property and half the garden?

Could you not just ask to use the unused bit of the garden and pay a peppercorn rent for it? on the basis they are not and cannot use it with no access.

Through the actual flat rather than across your external piece of land?

Yes. On the other three sides of the land are the neighbours’ gardens.

Or do they own it all and you lease the property and half the garden?

Yes.

ask to use the unused bit of the garden and pay a peppercorn rent for it

Maybe this is the way forward. Be good to do it by verbal agreement rather than getting lawyers involved and leases amended.

And if you can…. defo speak to him

easier said than done.

could he offer the same piece of land to the property immediately behind so they could extend their garden towards yours – would also give *them* a plot of land big enough to build something on?

is there actually anything to stop him building one of those funny step bridges you sometimes see at the back of split houses to allow access from one of the flats above you? Or flogging it to one of the other houses (who could build onto it)? I’d agree with the 6 figure valuation for London

I am thinking of offering to ‘maintain’ it for him (there are trees that need chopping down) and in return he lets me use it.

Seems a sensible option where you both benefit and you don’t have to tie up or borrow more money. Might make sense to buy if you are thinking of selling up in the short term but If you are planning on staying then it seems a poor investment as the benefits it gives in quality of life are probably available for just the maintenance.

On the other three sides of the land are the neighbours’ gardens.

Three more potential buyers and potential development options. I’d say the £100k mentioned is high but not far off. I doubt it would add anything like that to the value of your flat so unlikely to be worthwhile. Renting makes more sense to both parties, although if he is an absent landlord just using it makes even more sense 🙂

interesting, hadn’t really considered it being competitive…
actually one of the adjacent gardens is in a similarly unused state but has 20m oak tree in it.
the garden off the back is a communal garden for a small block of flats which is never used.
the other side might be interested but I doubt it.
the guy next door but one actually said he wouldn’t let the freeholder build on it and would buy the land off him to stop him doing so.

I am thinking of offering to ‘maintain’ it for him (there are trees that need chopping down) and in return he lets me use it.

You *might* be better writing to him to ask him to maintain the trees and deal with any other issues. If you plant in his head that it is a liability that costs him cash today rather than an asset it may smooth the path!

Make an offer and leave it with him, follow up the next year adding 20% or whatever.

I’d have thought you reduce your offer each year, otherwise you seem keen and he can wait five yrs and double his money!

well poly there is a disgustingly overgrown fig tree that is blocking light and encroaching on other people’s gardens – I like your thinking.

I’d have thought you reduce your offer each year, otherwise you seem keen and he can wait five yrs and double his money!

It’s london, adding 20% to last years prices is like offering 40% less anywhere else.

There is no access to his land other than through my flat and he has not right of access.

You sure? He might have an ‘easement of necessity.’
I don’t know if this allows going through someone’s house but would allow access through their garden, just on foot I think which would still make building something awkward.
IANAL
.
Much bigger piece here (20x20m maybe) sold for £4.5k. It had already had planning refused though, but it did include a parking space. That’s about 1/20th of the value of the adjecant two-bed flat which bought it, so guessing it might be worth less than 1/20th of the vlaue of your flat if it’s smaller and has no parking?

If he is the freeholder of the overall plot, he will have a prescribed right of access.

As the leaseholder, depending on undertakings and lease period you may not be able to purchase the land in perpetuity but add use of it to the lease.

It’s not necessarily straightforward and difficult to offer further advice without reviewing deeds/leases but easily resolvable with enough fee.

Update: seems he does have access, but via a 15m long 1m wide alleyway down the back of the neighbours’ gardens on one side. Alleyway leads onto a side road.

I just wanted to clarify something, you’re getting valuation advice on a land deal from the STW forum?

It’s just that it isn’t always the first choice when seeking a Red Book valuation.

Do yourself a favour and appoint a RICS registered surveyor, not an Estate Agent, someone who will use comparables to give you a proper Red Book valuation and will engage the sellers agent.

“Update: seems he does have access”
Every possible corner is being developed near us….Maybe he’ll do something like this?!!
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airbnb-amsterdam-shipping-container-cottage-netherlands-a8917236.html

you’re getting valuation advice on a land deal from the STW forum

obviously!

appoint a RICS registered surveyor

but STW advice is free.

Maybe he’ll do something like this

conservation area so hopefully not.

Our house had a similar issue regarding land at the bottom of the garden with no access. Bought it for £10k, including the portion at the bottom of the next door garden that they didn’t want to buy.

With no access what can be done with it apart from as an extension to your garden?

I’d say a 1m access corridor is enough for him to work with for building. I did the ground investigation for a pair of houses in London last year- it was in a walled garden in a block of flats built around 1910. To get access they’d bought one of the ground floor flats and were taking the walls out to get a mini digger for the foundations through, and a conveyer belt to get the soil back out to skips.

Yes STW advice is free but you’re just about to get your pants pulled down and professional advice, although an upfront cost will likely mean you saving much more in the long run.

You say he can access the land. This is important information but have you had the title checked? Does the owner have benefit of the access? There may well be a ransom strip preventing him from getting access he may not have the freehold to the access or an options agreement on it.

Is the site constrained in any other way? Does one of the Statutory Undertakers have an easement? Have you checked the Services Map? For all you know there may be a medium pressure gas main under the site making development difficult and material affecting its Potential Use Value.

Have you checked with the Local Planning Authority on their view of its development potential or even if there’s an extant permission in place? All material considerations in negotiations on value of land.

Planning consent will greatly increase its value but if it doesn’t have it and the LPA don’t see it as having development potential then its value is based on its Current Use Value as open space which in the north of England is £10k per acre. If it’s got development potential then who knows what bonkers value it will command down there.

I strongly suggest you either get professional advice or bend over. Your choice!