Not by senselessly compromising the safety of the cyclist.

If he didn't have to brake or swerve, and there was no danger of being struck by the wing mirror, where does senselessly compromising come into it?
I'm subjected to far more compromising driving every time I ride my road bike, cars cutting back in too early, overtaking then turning left, or overtaking and then braking hard.
That didn't look particularly bad at all to me. So in answer to Steve's question, closer than that.
And I have to say, name-calling is rather unnecessary.

Name calling?

If you drive so close that the cyclist has no margin for error you are senselessly compromising the safety of the rider. The rider needs room to wiggle and breathe. Other car drivers are doing that to you because you are not positioned safely on the road, I'd guess.

During rush hour traffic, if all motorists waited until there were no oncoming vehicles before overtaking, we'd ALL travel to work at the same speed as the slowest cyclist.

"Wiggling" is dangerous cycling. You should look far enough ahead to be able to adjust your road position to avoid potholes and grids WITHOUT wiggling.

If you ride so close to the curb that you have to swerve to avoid grids or gutter debris, then your technique needs work. But what the hell do I know, 250 road miles a week for 4 years didn't really teach me much.

You should look far enough ahead to be able to adjust your road position to avoid potholes and grids WITHOUT wiggling

should but sometimes unavoidable.

should but sometimes unavoidable.

I'd be inclined to agree with you, but my eyes tend to work uninterupted practically all of the time. So I shan't.

I'd be inclined to agree with you, but my eyes tend to work uninterupted practically all of the time. So I shan't.

Just not always able to point them directly ahead due to other environmental factors. But yes, wiggly cyclists are a bit annoying.

If you can't look far enough ahead to pick your line without sudden swerving movements (due to other environmental factors) then you should slow down.

What makes people think we cyclists should be entitled to blat along completely unimpeded by other road users? We've all got to muck in and use the same facilities without winding each other up.

Don't have to wait for no oncoming vehicles – just no oncoming vehicles if the road is too narrow.

Urban average speeds are not much faster than bikes anyway – even if all the cars slowed down to bike speed it wouldn't make too much difference.

Cyclists wiggle – my kids sometimes swerve slightly when they look over their shoulder. They shouldn't be hit by impatient drivers for the crime of wiggling slightly.

250 road miles per week did indeed not teach you much – but only because you haven't shifted your presumption that bikes are to ride in the road margin and be overtaken as a matter of course. In fairness that is the same wrong presumption that lots of people make.

If the rider can stick his arm out and touch your car, you are way too close.

Cyclists wiggle – my kids sometimes swerve slightly when they look over their shoulder. They shouldn't be hit by impatient drivers for the crime of wiggling slightly.

One would hope wiggly children would be given a wider birth.

One would hope everyone would be given a wide berth! As is required by the Highway Code.

From the highway code:

163
Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should
– not get too close to the vehicle you intend to overtake

212
When passing motorcyclists and cyclists, give them plenty of room (see Rules 162-167). If they look over their shoulder it could mean that they intend to pull out, turn right or change direction. Give them time and space to do so.

213
Motorcyclists and cyclists may suddenly need to avoid uneven road surfaces and obstacles such as drain covers or oily, wet or icy patches on the road. Give them plenty of room and pay particular attention to any sudden change of direction they may have to make.

I learnt enough to see some appalling driving – like people with that "must overtake that cyclist" mentality, even though I was doing 30mph in a 30 zone.
The OP didn't appear to be doing anything like that sort of speed, 14 or 15 mph by the look of it, and the traffic seemed to be moving quite happily in the mid twenties.
As I said, if you're going to ride a bike on the road, you should expect to be overtaken by faster moving vehicles that don't want to trickle along at 15mph.
Expecting people not to, getting arsey when the do, or trying to cause an obstruction so they can't is just going to piss them off and further damage the relationship between motorists and cyclists.

glenp – Member
One would hope everyone would be given a wide berth! As is required by the Highway Code.

+1

Sometimes when riding n the dark you can't see the pot hole that has appeared over night until you are on top of it other times Things move out and cause you to swerve or the wind suddenly blows across through a gap in the hedge. There are lots of reasons why a cyclist may suddenly 'wiggle' just like you wouldn't pass a car/lorry etc that close.

15mph is probably about what I was doing, as that section is slightly uphill and I'm not quick.

The main reason I was positioned that far to the left is that I've no intention of holding up the traffic any more than is necessary, and I've no particular issue if they overtake me into oncoming traffic as long as they give me a bit of room (for much of that bit of road that's entirely possible as long as the oncoming car moves to the left). The road in the other direction isn't all that busy, so no-one would have been held up behind me for more than a few seconds and once onto the flat bits & downhill bits the traffic isn't that much faster than me anyway.

So, let me get this straight. You moved to the left so you wouldn't hold anyone up as you rode up a slight hill.
Someone overtook you, through the gap you'd left, and now you're having a moan…
Hmmm…

You don't seem to get it! When you cycle out in the main lane you aren't "causing an obstruction" – you are asserting your right to be there and be safe – as stated clearly in the rules of the road. When the road is wide enough you can then return to the secondary position, to the left.

The rules are devised in everyone's interest. You just need to learn them.

I don't expect cars not to overtake. But I do expect them to wait until it is safe to overtake. I also expect to be the one that makes that decision – it is my neck.

Shibboleth – Member
I learnt enough to see some appalling driving – like people with that "must overtake that cyclist" mentality, even though I was doing 30mph in a 30 zone.
The OP didn't appear to be doing anything like that sort of speed, 14 or 15 mph by the look of it, and the traffic seemed to be moving quite happily in the mid twenties.

But that what the first driver is doing hes not over taking he is just pushing past the second car is over taking as he changes in to the other lane.

As I said, if you're going to ride a bike on the road, you should expect to be overtaken by faster moving vehicles that don't want to trickle along at 15mph.

Agian being overtaken is fine but not people just barging past you.

Expecting people not to, getting arsey when the do, or trying to cause an obstruction so they can't is just going to piss them off and further damage the relationship between motorists and cyclists.

But that is how they teach safe cycling ie not leting people over take when its not safe to do so. I also have been know to wave cars past when i can see its safe but they can't

Calm down glen, it's really not worth getting your Sam Brown in a twist! As a cyclist, I know the rules and I know what's safe. As a motorist, I also know the rules and what's safe, but I'm also acutely aware of the sort of behaviour that pisses motorists off.
I'm quite an experienced and competent road cyclist, and I too would have moved to the left on an incline like that, knowing that I wasn't going to wiggle. If I'd not been confident in my own ability, I would have adopted a slightly more defensive road position.

So, let me get this straight. You moved to the left so you wouldn't hold anyone up as you rode up a slight hill.
Someone overtook you, through the gap you'd left, and now you're having a moan…

Nope. Didn't move to the left – that's my normal road position on my commute unless I decide I need to ride further out for safety reasons (i.e. I take the middle of the lane when going through pinch-points, or if the road surface is damaged well out into the lane). I had been quite a bit further out a couple of hundred yards back, but that's because there was a lot of slush and ice on the road surface so I had to ride where it was clear.

I don't ride in the gutter, perhaps 2-3 ft into the lane if the road surface is ok, which sounds like it's not as far into the lane as some here (and perhaps not as far as I should).

Shibboleth I am calm – I just can't really figure out how to make a clear point and not come across as agitated. Probably you'll think this sounds agitated also.

I accept that you know what you're doing. Bit puzzling that you said otherwise to start with, but there you go – most likely you were just having a mini-troll until some poor fool typed a little too clearly and then you could tell him to calm down.

What you say about wiggling is the biggest danger to cycling on the road – you (correctly) say that if your confidence was lower you would be more defensive (ie move out further) – whereas cyclists who lack confidence cower closer to the kerb (ie do the opposite).

whereas cyclists who lack confidence cower closer to the kerb (ie do the opposite).

OK, so I got it wrong. Steve *isn't* a competent cyclist. Sorry guys, I shouldn't have assumed.

As you were…

;o)

OK, so I got it wrong. Steve *isn't* a competent cyclist. Sorry guys, I shouldn't have assumed.

I'm perhaps not competent by the godlike (in their minds if not in practice) standards of this board, however by general public standards I am. I'm certainly a lot more competent than my wife and kids.

I've even got a qualification – my cycling proficiency certificate turned up in a pile of old papers recently…

Does that qulaify you to call someone a cock, simply because they don't agree with you?

Can I also back up your words glenp.
Whilst I am far too cool to do it myself, the use of a judicious wiggle is a fairly reliable tool to get a bit more space/care.
Generally. drivers (like shibboleth perhaps?) will give less space and consideration to superconfident, competent riders and will take bigger risks around them.
Shib, you're 'acutely aware of what pisses off drivers'?
Good for you, Frankly, If I'm legal and have priority, I couldn't care less about slighting the ego of some poor driver if it means my safety is compromised. I probably would have been positioned further right in the clip TBH.

Does that qulaify you to call someone a cock

Yes.

Lacking confidence or experience isn't the only reason that a rider might be too far in (btw, I'm not even saying that you were too far in steve). That's why drivers should leave a decent margin for error, rather than assume they know everything about a rider from a minimal glance at them as they approach.

Shibboleth – I don't think he was calling you a cock for not agreeing with you. Probably a much more simple reason.

Probably a much more simple reason.

Yeah, probably now realising how silly he looks videoing his commute and then posting what he thought was *like, really scary, man* on Youtube and this forum!

I think we've probably all said enough, I'm sure he realises that he just needs to MTFU a bit and stop being silly.

Yeah, probably now realising how silly he looks videoing his commute and then posting what he thought was *like, really scary, man* on Youtube and this forum!

Very far from the truth. The majority of sensible posters confirmed my thought that the driver was unacceptably close, however as is typical for STW (and any other large gathering of people) not everyone agrees. And of course one misfit deems it acceptable to risk mowing down cyclists in order to save a few seconds on his way to his all-important job, but in these days of care-in-the-community and the internet hardcase that's also not surprising. Perhaps it's due to their general unhappiness – who knows.

I've even had some useful advice on road positioning from people who commute more often than me.

Nice one. I'm pleased for you. Now you just need to learn to keep the petty name-calling in the playground.

Nice one. I'm pleased for you. Now you just need to learn to keep the petty name-calling in the playground.

Note to self: Don't feed the troll.

I'm not really criticising your positioning (in my last sentence), epicsteve, I'ts just that I'm personally a bolshie m**********r, 🙂 and I'm too cynical about peoples impatience to play nice all the time.
Generally, the old saying about' giving an inch/ they'll take a mile' rings true.

I'm not really critisising your positioning (in my last sentence), epicsteve,

I've no problem with constructive criticsm. I've done quite a bit of cycle commuting in the past but previously it was 10 miles each-way out of town, on mostly quiet roads. For the current commute (which I don't do all that often either) I can vary it from mostly off-road, quiet side roads or on reasonably busy main roads (which is fastest) – but I really don't have all that much experience of cycling in dozy morning rush-hour traffic. I've got a lot of motorcycle commuting experience but despite also being on two wheels it's totally different (although as you pass a lot of cars you see lots of scary stuff – people shaving, doing their make-up or reading the paper while driving).

I won't be commuting again until next week but I'll try a foot further out on that section and see how I get on.

is there nothingoin stw we wont argue over?
You have to stop cars overtaking you by your position in the road when YOU DECIDE it is not safe. That first car would have got a tap from me the second one overtook as it should. I often sit in the outside of the lane as I have seen cars overtake me on blind bends and being that far out stops them. If they beep me or get annoyed I know I just stopped someone from endagenering my life. It just affirms my decision was correct. Do what is safest for you
I would be further out on that section – far enough out that they cannot overtake without putting a reasonable portion of their car on the other side…only way to make them think about it.