Learnt yesterday/today that my job (and many many others) are probably going to be outsourced to contract and there is a high probability we'll be TUPE'd over.

I though the idea of TUPE was that I'd move over with broadly the same T&C's, effectively maintaining my period of employment etc. But the managers round my way are under the impression we could be TUPE'd over, then anytime afterwards (say a month for arguements sake) our new employer could tell us to re-apply for our jobs under whatever T&C's they see fit, if you don't like it, bugger off!

Can't really see the benefit of TUPE if its that easy to evade?!

Thats about 1/2 right your new empolyer just like your old one can change your T&C's and if you don't like it well you know the rest.
How ever re-appling for your job with new terms T&C's isn't the same job.
And if you don't get it then you redundency should be based on your old T&C.

Can't answer your question, but I think this can possibly be done after a reasonable period.
However, from personal experience a few points.
– your pension contributions fall outside tupe
– your redundancy terms fall outside tupe
– unless your contract guarantees a pay rise there is nothing to stop the new company freezing your pay under your existing contract to 'entice' you onto a new contract.

Workplace representation is vital- you and as many of your colleagues as possible need to join a union to try and protect as much as possible.

In my instance we went from a company with a final salary scheme and a generous redundancy policy(Pru)to one with a defined (small) contribution scheme and no redundancy policy at all(Churchill)-'we're a young and growing company, never made anyone redundant and never will'.

Without union backing we would not have retained our redundancy policy, and would not have gained enhanced pension contributions.

Of course, when RBS bought Churchill and chucked us out the door the redundancy was very handy..

I think what Speshpaul says maybe right, however theres something in my head telling me they can't do anything for a minimum of 12 months.
I've been Tuped twice over the last few years and tbh nothing really changes for well over 12 months as they like to see how things go.

It happened to me a few years ago. I worked in an in-house IT department for a big insurance company. We got TUPE'd over to Accenture, an American IT company and truly the Spawn of Satan. We were all promised by the CEO there were to be no redundancies, and true to his word, there were none at that time. Then, 12 months later, we all had to re-apply for our jobs, and in one day they laid off 400 out of 600 people. All work was sent to India. I got out a year later and took a career change. 2 years on, there are 32 people left.

The unions fought hard, but faced with a hard-faced American company specializing in making people redundant, they had no chance. Our fantastic non-contributory final pension schemes were frozen, and we had to join the new company's scheme. The other terms and conditions really didn't change, but there weren't many people left to appreciate them!

Don't think there is anytime limit, you could be TUPEd over and made redundant immediately (actually happens quite a lot), it's just the new company's responsibility not the old one.

The whole TUPE thing was a sop to the public sector unions to allow the conservatives to sort out a lot of the public sector employment problems in the eighties. It was not intended to protect private sector workers. Without strong union backing they are quite within their normal rights to make you redundant or vary your terms as long as they give the required notice period.

Only protection you really get is they can't give you a massive paycut or substantially change your role without offering you redundancy (in effect making your role redundant and offering you a worse role), if they did they'd be liable for constructive dismal.

Edit, meant constructive dismissal 😳

TBH – a lot of the time the only benefit for an employee being TUPE'd is you retain your length of service

Found this on some paperwork from when I last got done

TUPE

As bad as that eh! Should've applied for Voluntary redundancy a few months back and scarpered with 12 months pay!

Nothing is going to happen overnight, first round of 'planned' outsourcing starts in January and well be dealt with in the following months.

Its Openreach/BT, anyone noticed all the poling/copper jointing/fibre optic jobs being advertised by Carillion-Telent?!

Its not a done deal at the moment but it looks more than likely at the moment.

Spooky, Oddly i was TUPE'd from BT about 6 years ago. But different times, the new company started FS pension as part of the deal and we were allowed a £ for £ transfer from the BT to the new scheme. I'm still a C3 on basically C3 money (last time i checked a few quid more)
I still do the same job, for the same customers, same office in an exchange and same van from Fleet.
Bottom line is BT wants to have a number of customer facing business, but contracting out the work force. But what ever happens someone still has to hold together the copper network with zipties:-)
They can't do that from Calcutta!
Chin up

Most of the above is just innaccurate , incomplete or untrue.
On day one when you transfer it is like you were originally employed by the new company. They have taken over the undertaking your company did (it is NOT a merger or a takeover they are acquiring the business undertaking). For example. you clean hospitals for comapny a company b wins the tender or it is outsourced to them. Now they MUST BY LAW employ you on same terms and conditions to do the same job as company A did when they acquire your undertaking – start cleaning the hospitals.
Most of the above was probably a merger which is not the samething as it is exempt as that happens at share level.

You are very well protected. They cant (assuming they employ other cleaners elsewhere) even harmonise your wages to be in line with other employees (though transfering to better T & C is allowed) doing the same job on lesser money.
It is generally hard to make non management roles ( Company B probably has its own HR, Payroll clerk,etc)redundant. Where they do they do it in your current T & C. Pensions are complicated.

govt guide pdf please read

Junkyard, my statements are my experiences with major employers- whilst contractual conditions are tuped company policies are not- redundancy compensation is normally a policy.
There has been a change to pension provision since I went through this, setting minimum standards, but there is no requirement to match the previous plan.

They cant (assuming they employ other cleaners elsewhere) even harmonise your wages to be in line with other employees (though transfering to better T & C is allowed) doing the same job on lesser money.

But they can freeze pay to gradually bring this back into line.

Thought it might be Openreach, work for them myself

They have some evil managers there just now, think industrial action will be coming very soon

what happens is…

a company who think they know more than you coem in, promise the world, fail to deliver, **** up virtually everything that made you good in the first place, then **** off.

Or you could be lucky, and have **** all to do with BT.

Don't happen to work for Openreach do you?

You've not read the thread – have you TT?

Not carefully enough, but edited my original response already

Come on it is friday and been a very stressful week working for that rotten lot

Freeze pay – If your current employer can freeze pay the next one can as well. Depends on current contract.

Company policies apply to the company employees therefore they are T & C of employment.

OP please just read the govt pdf.

BT have bought nothing but shit to my organisation.

Junkyards response is the most accurate yet.

On transferring to the new company, your length of service and T&C's (excluding pension arrangements) will continue and there is no maximum time limit for this, however at any time after transfer, if the company has an "ETO" business (economical, technological or organisational) reason they can begin consultations to change your T&C's. Harmonisation is not a valid reason.

i was tupe'd 4 months ago, it was a massive move and very stressfull, work and home as the wife gets her oar in too, i even started smoking again after almost a year off, along with that overnight came a night and day chage to the systm of work, i mean computer wise, learning a system all over again, it was as if the prevoius company never existed and almost a crime to mention the name, but over these months ive settled and all seems good, and in some ways a bit better, then others benefit wise a bit worse, my t and c's are as before with no change at all, but you need to keep on top of the pension side of things as these arent sometimes transferrable, so its a stop your current/move/ or whatever the new company provides, im in the rail industry

TUPEing is just a way of ditching staff you don't want anymore.

Your new employers will be tied to a work period under your originaly T&C's after which they can do what they want. The work period is the key issue.

Without the TUPE legislation you could be fired immediately because there would be no obligation for the new company that provides the services or activities that you currently carry out the retain any personnel, so you are actually a lot better off as a result of the legislation being in place.

samuri – Member

TUPEing is just a way of ditching staff you don't want anymore.

Your new employers will be tied to a work period under your originaly T&C's after which they can do what they want. The work period is the key issue.

Just read the guide please
This is exactly what they cannot do and there is no time limit to TUPE

Dont confuse merger/takeover with TUPE.

Thanks for all the responses/links 🙂

Remains to be seen what happens, but it was laid out plain and simple what would happen if cost saving measures didn't get accepted. The results of a Union vote was a no vote against their recommendation, since then company emails have been very blunt and to the point, 'we told what the consequences would be, now suffer them'! I think all the no voters thought the company was calling their bluff. Annoying thing is, the cost saving measures would have the biggest impact on the employees that are not been threatened with outsourcing, so the decision was largely out of our hands as they outnumber us many times over.

Don't think either the union or the company will want to been seen to back down over this.

Junkyard is absolutely correct to say you just move to the new employer on the same t & c's. The point is though there is nothing stopping your current employer from making you redundant or changing your t & c's and the applies to your new employer. Provided they follow the rules, consult and provide the apprpriate notice period they can harmonise pay or make you redundant, they just can't do it from day one. Notice period for changing t & c's rarely exceeds 3 months. We did it recently, scrapped shifts, reduced the working week etc., a lot of the guys effectively took a 20% paycut after their notice period.

I think all the no voters thought the company was calling their bluff

I didn't think that nor did many of my colleagues who voted no
More a case of having terms and conditions setback years and even if you accepted the deal nothing to stop BT then making people redundant

Many of us older employees could get through a few more years, but sometimes have to think about the younger generation who would be blighted with this deal for ever more

Having worked for them 34 years this is the most devious senior management I have seen and time to make a stand
Already stolen my final salary pension, no pay rise and then this assault on my hours of attendance and other conditions

How can being forced to work away from home for up to 4 months a year with a weeks notice be right or forcing employees (many of them female in offices) to work until 9 o'clock at night in dodgy inner city areas and then travel on sparsely populated public transport

All their spouting about work life balance means shit as opposed to profit and they don't give a flying **** for their workers as these proposals show