From the Tory manifesto

“We will tackle unauthorised
traveller camps. We will give the
police new powers to arrest and
seize the property and vehicles of
trespassers who set up unauthorised
encampments, in order to protect our
communities. We will make intentional
trespass a criminal offence, and we
will also give councils greater powers
within the planning system.”

Your thoughts

I suppose ideally about this rather than general political mud slinging. I live in hope……

Same old story of over-reaching legislation being smuggled in under a blanket of something the public gets (often justifiably) angry about. The question really being whether it’s a matter of misguided solutions with reasonable intent, or a deliberate attempt to hoodwink the public into accepting legislation whose intent is really to be used to other purposes. Who knows for sure? But clearly there’s potential for such a law to be used in many other applications.

Terrible idea obviously. Those times when you get stuck trying to follow a non existent trail into a thicket and think you can just cross that field to get to a road and safety? Illegal.

I mean, it might end up being well thought out and useful. But…

Seems an easy way to slip extra stuff in undercover. Even if the intent isn’t there now, I can see it being used/abused further down the line.

Governments and Police have form for it

Good spot OP. I’m sure many of us on here do a spot of harmless trespass. The aggrevated trespass law dealt with anything more mischievous.
If they get back in, hopefully parliament will bring some sense into any change in the law, but this is definitely a shift to the right, taking away our hard fought liberties.

This law won’t get used on travellers, it’ll be used on everybody else.

Intentional? Im lost….simple defence?

Wasn’t it a private member’s bill a few months ago? I seem to remember another thread about it either on here or another forum.

One way to reverse CRoW I suppose.

What I thought was most interesting about this was the context. While criticising Labour for antisemitism, the Tories pull out such an obvious anti-gypsy proposal. I guess they figure their electorate only half paid attention when the holocaust was being taught at school.

I thought that the word intentional might cover 2 things.

The first is cheeky camping. If you found under a tarp in Wiltshire having a brew it might be hard to argue this was you emergency kit and you didn’t mean to be there.

Secondly riding established but cheeky trail. Harder to argue that you thought you were on bridle way of your miles from one

Thirdly could be terrible for Rock climbers who never have a right of way

I saw this in Facebook

On the 12 December you have the opportunity to make sure England does not end up a shit place to be a mountainbiker, walker, or camper.

epicyclo

On the 12 December you have the opportunity to make sure England does not end up a shit place to be a mountainbiker, walker, or camper

Or a worker!…I could go on..

This law will also be used against hunt sabs and monitors, so enabling the fox hunting fraternity.

My bet is the hunt sabs are the main target.

This law will also be used against hunt sabs and monitors, so enabling the fox hunting fraternity

Not necessary. They’ve always thrown anything they can at sabs. Can’t count how many Saturday afternoons I spent in cells for aggravated trespass only to be released without charge long after the hunt packed up.

Surely this will end up being challenged in the High Court? It’s very blatantly targeting a specific ethnic group. Although I can’t help wondering if that wouldn’t be the sort of long running distraction that BoJo would love. Good old common sense BoJo against the out of touch judiciary.

Even the police don’t want these powers. I’m not sure what Angry Gammon expects will happen. Every time a few caravans pull up a full riot squad of police are going to turn up arrest men, woman and children?

On the 12 December you have the opportunity to make sure England does not end up a shit place to be a mountainbiker, walker, or camper.

Last time I ventured down there I got the impression it already was!

‘No trespassing’ and ‘private’ signs all over the shop. I’d never really thought about how totally bangin’ right to roam is until I saw what people have to deal with in England.

That aside, this sounds like a terrible, terrible proposal. Hopefully it’s yet another one of those pre-election lies to win votes that will never come to fruition.

Last time I ventured down there I got the impression it already was!

It must have been a very convincing impression as it’s not.

Crap proposal.

Far too easy for it to be misused.

Current laws are pretty good, as above. Aggregated Trespass covers all bases.

And how will it be implemented against travellers? They turn up at a location. Someone complains. Police arrest everyone? Wives and kids included? What happens to the vehicles? Would need an army of police to enforce each time.

Knee jerk bollox. And that’s before the discrimination lawyers get hold of it.

Drac

It must have been a very convincing impression as it’s not.

When you’ve grown up with the freedom to roam going to a country where there is a restriction on that freedom feels oppressive.

If you’ve never had it, you probably don’t miss it.

But the point is that it looks like you’re going to lose almost all of it if the big landowner’s party gets in.

Oh, that does sound like a stupid plan (or great if you are a knob).

Does anyone have a link to it?

When you’ve grown up with the freedom to roam going to a country where there is a restriction on that freedom feels oppressive.

Or, in my case, downright confusing. A casual look at an OS map of England or Wales shows a plethora of pink lines of various styles and I’m never sued which I’m “allowed” to ride so it simply puts me off. Similarly with locked gates, Private/No Entry signs etc. I’m not trying to excuse my ignorance/laziness, simply pointing out the cumulative effect

Depends how they define trespass. It was and still is a crime to trespass in Trespass in Scotland. Trespass Scotland Act 1829 I seem to recall. Trespass was defined as lodging, or camping or lighting a fire. though. The right to roam act did not abolish the Trespass Act but created an exemption for wild camping and defined the right of access. Walking on land though was never a crime bar exemptions like railways etc.

That said the criminal trespass law was rarely used. Illegal travellers camps being dealt with by civil injunction.

Given the practicalities of arresting large numbers of men and women and dealing with children vid suggest civil law would be best. Perhaps reform to make civil legal action faster and cheaper. But the devil will be in the details.

Does anyone have a link to it?

It’s on page 19 of the tory manifesto-

https://assets-global.website-files.com/5da42e2cae7ebd3f8bde353c/5dda924905da587992a064ba_Conservative%202019%20Manifesto.pdf

It’s the way it’s worded that’s important. The sentence that begins ‘We will make intentional trespass a criminal offence…’ is a separate statement to the one about traveller sites and is wider-ranging.

irc

…Trespass Scotland Act 1829 I seem to recall. Trespass was defined as lodging, or camping or lighting a fire.

Ah yes. It was a great help for landowners with recalcitrant tenants who refused to move away when their houses were pulled down around them or burnt down.

Yup no right to roam is shit but England really isn’t.

Party of the petty and miserable advocate petty and miserable policies to appeal to petty and miserable people.

Can’t think the rozzers are going to be that hell bent on chasing a few mountain bikers around footpaths, they haven’t got the numbers to send officers to some burglaries and I doubt they’ll be enthused about the extra work generated by a party that they have nowhere near the same instinctive loyalty towards compared with a decade ago.

All the good stuff round my neck of the woods got caught early by the NIMBYs and byelaws slapped all over years ago. But stupid rules need enforcing and……

If the Tories get a majority we will all be working every weekend anyway and the countryside will be sold off to developers and paved over. Or fracked and destabilized. I’ll happily do my bit to peacefully protest by riding a bike on it.

It’s about time the olde worlde rights of way system was sorted out. If it was we wouldn’t have to worry about this sort of stuff. Footpaths tha5 are good enough to drive on but you’re not legally allowed to ride a bike on and bridleways that you can ride a bike on that are like a bog. Loads of well surfaced linked vehicle tracks that are out of bounds just cos they were never registered. None of it makes sense these-days.

trespass has always been a civil offence
it does sound very like China tryng to make everything that they havent planned illlegal

Morally bankrupt government plus morally bankrupt PM.

If they get a majority it’s not going to end well. This proposed law will seem insignificant compared to what could well happen.

The cops will be checking Strava for criminal activity.

How about making so that if the country is invaded you cannot be required to defend land you’re not allowed on.

Those bits aren’t your country after all… 🙂

Or to put it another way, if the big landowners have the right to use your body to defend their land, then you have the right to roam that land.

No Strava here. I’m not daft and I know of a couple of instances where Strava has been especially unhelpful to riders.

They are coming for us, though. The amount of hate out there for mountain bike riders has gone up tenfold since the Brexit vote. Mainly down to bitter old giffers who haven’t enjoyed themselves enough in their lives so want to deny others any form of fun. These are the kind of people who have days to waste making a pain in the arse of themselves to parish councils, locals councils, landowners etc.

I think it’s just a manifesto titbit designed to appeal to the scarlet of countenance and frothy of mouth.

I find it difficult to see how it could be enforced anyway, 70m people and only about 3 Rozzers, they are outnumbered as it is and struggle to enforce existing laws. When was the last time you didn’t see someone driving with a phone in their hand?

When was the last time you didn’t see someone driving with a phone in their hand?

Quite right, but miserable old gits have a lot of time on their hands and can be a real pain in the arse for the police. Some around me would turn up day after day at the local police station until ‘something is done’.

70m people and only about 3 Rozzers, they are outnumbered as it is and struggle to enforce existing laws

The problem is, they have targets to meet and have to demonstrate that they’re doing something (and I’m not blaming the police officers for that). Somebody posts “hate speech” online, all they have to do is identify them and they have the evidence for prosecution. If they don’t know who broke into your house, they’re unlikely to find out, so no prosecution. If trespass is easy to prosecute, it will get prosecuted.

1. This is a manifesto line to give the red trousered give something to hurrah about in the pub. 2. It’s probably racist (to discriminate against travellers) so wouldn’t pass the Commons let alone the Lords. 3. There’s no-one to enforce it, the cops can barely keep up with the crap going on in towns and cities, they’re aren’t going to be arsed to chase middle aged white people around the countryside. 4. Our access laws are headed in the other direction, 5. The countryside   (non-agricultural, and even that post Brexit will probably crash) economy is dying on it’s arse, and needs all the help it can get, restricting the access of middle class rich mountain bikers is precisely the opposite of that.

There are laws on illegal camps already. The public order act 1986 was introduced to tackle the summer solstice camps. ss61 of the Criminal Justice and Public order act 1994 refined it further.

ss61

We currently don’t have enough police to enforce it. One day we might.

A big land owner like the Duke of Bedford might take the option of few private prosecutions as a way of shutting down say Woburn