That’s not what I said

However just to be clear burning wood in urban environment is polluting

There are numerous papers out there to prove it and the body of evidence grows year on year

And burning wood in a non urban enviroment polutes less how ?

It has less impact on air quality, which is what matters. More air between your chimney and someone else’s nose means that more of it is washed out of the air by rain and whatnot.

Ah ok , so its simply a case of cant see it from your window since we all share the same atmosphere.

No, don’t be a pillock.

The atmosphere isn’t homogenous, neither is the population. There are a lot more chimneys in cities. Consequently, the air quality is a lot worse. In the countryside, the effect of the houses burning wood is much less because it can dissipate more easily.

Wood smoke is a LOCAL problem, CO2 is a global one. You must know the difference.

It reminds me of the governments plan to have emissions zones on the coast to keep the beaches clean.

A thread which highlights pollution from wood burning stoves yet you seek to attack someone for highlighting this fact

You attempt to find an angle to attack them through expending effort trawling through their posting history

How creepy

Look at my posts on the first page, I pointed out the health risk from fine particles.

I’m not attacking you for highlighting the fact, I’m highlighting the hypocrisy in your over the top attack on wood burning stoves which contribute nothing like what your diesel car and others like it do to city pollution. When I know people are being hypocrites (because my memory is pretty good) I’m quite happy to trawl through their posting to prove it. Especially when you didn’t answer direct questions about which car you drive.

I think everyone on STW knows Molgrips has the most unreliable Passat ever built and a Prius. Trail rat has a Berlingo that he bought having considered a Dacia but didn’t like the TCE engine. You see, T1000, just because you don’t remember anything about posters other than you’ve argued with them in the past and decided you don’t like them doesn’t mean they don’t remember anything about you.

Man i am out of here think ill try mumsnet, you lot are just plain bitchy to each other.

Laters

No, it’s just Edukator.

I knew I shouldn’t have mentioned the Passat. 😉

The anti-stove thing is like the anti-wind turbine and anti-solar panel stuff. It’s anti-renewable energy propaganda which highlights minor negatives to discredit alternative energy sources with huge pluses.

It’s not a minor negative, the smog issue is real which is why they aren’t good for urban environments (or pre-colonisation California). They also have to be used sustainably otherwise it’s all for naught.

I’m not anti-renewable btw, far from it but there are a lot of arguments against many of the technologies being deployed that do need addressing (toxic production of solar panels, environmental effects of large scale hydro, cooling effects of GSHP). Using a single solution is never the answer, the key is diversity of supply and by having diverse solutions you’re not over consuming.

toxic production of solar panels

Check out the Solar World site. And again, people are happy to buy a car with a mass of metals and materials involving toxic production but God forbid a solar panel should contain any at all.

cooling effects of GSHP

highly localised and never going to result in climatic change. It’s just a non problem in the greater scheme of things. The heating effects of A/C are also significant in hot towns but you won’t find many people arguing against A/C because of it.

I agree that a diverse, a preferably local, supply is the key and wood is very much part of the mix. Even if you think the issues related to renewables need addressing I hope you’d agree that they can wait until the much greater issues related to burning fossil fuels have been addressed.

In terms of your home, insulate and ventilate, then worry about the rest.

What was the question?

There is some dubious wood fuel systems out there, the ones with the least oil are the best, as well as using the best timber for the best uses first.

Whichever way, this new interest in wood fuel is good for timber prices, which is stimulating woodland management gradually, because Government aren’t.

Edukator – absolutely, I never meant to suggest that either of these issues were deal breakers but you can see how they lead on to greater issues (either social/environmental impact or using up all the ‘renewable’ heat). It was just a way of illustrating that even the ‘cleanest’ systems we have are far from perfect and not the only answer.

The anti-stove thing is like the anti-wind turbine and anti-solar panel stuff. It’s anti-renewable energy propaganda which highlights minor negatives

Pretty big negatives. Like domestic rooftop solar being viable only because of subsidies from other consumers. Wind only being viable with subsidised pricing and contracts where the wind energy is bought whether needed or not.

Or the fact both sources are intermittent and need near enough 100% backup from other sources for the times the wind stops blowing at night.

At least stoves work when you want them to.

The cost arguments against renewables disappear as soon as you cost in the environmental cost of fossil fuels. Syria has had a series of droughts which are a consequence of climatic change. How much will the war and dealing with the displaced population cost?

Backup, we should be talking about storage, is needed with renewables. Dinorwic was built for nuclear, we need more pump storage as renewables form a bigger part of the energy mix. Many existing hydro schemes are being fitted with reversible pumps and turbines, Germany is building renewable specific pump storage. A Europe wide low-loss grid is slowly replacing the old grid so when the anticyclone sits over one part of the continent the winds blowing around it power the areas in stagnant air. The solutions are there, only the political will is lacking to do it properly.

The best argument in favour of wood stoves is when push comes to shove you can go out and get your own fuel.

I prefer peat myself. 🙂

7°C outside this morning, still 21°C inside.

Trawling through someones posting history because you find the facts inconvenient is creepy and aggressive.

There’s nothing hypocritical about pointing out that urban wood burning stoves are significant polluters and that the body of evidence against them grows year by year.

Your accusation of hypocrisy is baseless, If I’d used and claimed environmental benefits of using heating oil in the urban environment then that would be hypocritical.

What your attempting is a petulant and childish attack because you don’t like the truth.

Once again you are being very aggressive and spouting nonsense.

What your attempting is a petulant and childish attack because you don’t like the truth.

Once again you are being very aggressive and spouting nonsense.

So you criticise people who pollute less than you for polluting and criticise people for their posting style then post that.

I did not criticise you, I responded to the OP’s enquiry about the environmental impact of wood burning stoves. I responded that they are significant polluters in the Urban environment.

You seem to have taken that as an attack on yourself, this is incorrect.

You have made a series of accusations and unpleasant comments and undertaken a creepy trawl through my browsing history

my browsing history

It’s your posting history, not browsing. And he’s by no means alone in that ‘creepy’ behaviour; a few on this forum conduct similar research before making comment, which is weird IMO. You know who you are…

But you can’t expect it not to be a factor in a debate such as this, especially when you entered in such a heavy handed fashion.

Are you happy to damage people’s health?

Reread the thread from from the start, T1000. I was the first poster on the thread to write “health issues”. I pointed out that stoves produce fine particles and that there are cats and filters to reduce them if they are considered a problem. Objectively if we are worried about fine particles the first thing to ban in towns is the diesel engine because no matter how much technology you throw at it it is still a far bigger problem than wood stoves. To criticise wood stoves in towns whilst driving a diesel in towns is hypocritical.

The only things I’ve taken as an attack are:
“creepy”, “petulant”, “childish”, “very aggressive”, “spouting nonsense”.

If you don’t wish to be reminded of what you have written don’t write it, especially not on the Net. It’s a bit like letting the Genie out of the bottle. If someone asks a polite question about whether you drive a diesel car, answer it. If not expect them to remember you drive diesels and check using your posting history.

I’m not alone in checking things in people’s posting history. But I do at least make it clear when I’ve done so:

His posting history tells us T1000

I’ve had things trawled from my own posting history a few times in the last few months, I don’t consider it a problem.

As you’ve seen fit to make comments about my family life and falsely accuse me of hypocrisy your words have no credibility

After my initial comments on this thread you have sought to attack in many different ways, as stated before nothing was directed at you.

the point I made still stands wood burning stoves in the urban environment are significant polluters

Your family life? Quote away, I’m intrigued.

Objectively if we are worried about fine particles the first thing to ban in towns is the diesel engine because no matter how much technology you throw at it it is still a far bigger problem than wood stoves. To criticise wood stoves in towns whilst driving a diesel in towns is hypocritical.

Why does the existence of the former preclude doing anything about the latter?

Syria has had a series of droughts which are a consequence of climatic change. How much will the war and dealing with the displaced population cost?

Syria has always had droughts. Why else is it a desert? Water shortages are more down to dams in Turkey retaining water that would have once gone to Syria and increased population. It’s war that displaces the population not weather. Other than 2008 Syrian wheat production has been pretty steady.

A Europe wide low-loss grid is slowly replacing the old grid so when the anticyclone sits over one part of the continent the winds blowing around it power the areas in stagnant air.

A Europe wide grid to cope with intermittent wind generation is another cost wind generators benefit from but don’t pay for. in any case it won’t work. There are times when there are low wind conditions over continental areas so near 100% backup still needed.

Wind Blowing Nowhere

A Europe wide grid allows the distribution of power generated from all forms of renewables, tide, hydro, solar, wave, bio. One calm day (or even several calm days can be compensated for with hydro. Many hydro schemes are only used at peak time at present but can alos be used to fill renewable short falls.

2008 was the year of the rural exodus following the failure of the wheat crop in Syria. It wasn’t just wheat BTW. That social change led to protests which led to the repression and the civil war.

Edit to add a 2010 report on crop failures and the consequences in Syria

This thread is typical of the way people are prepared to slag of renewables whilst turning a blind eye to the failings of fossil/nuclear power generation.

Or, if you want a more equitable interpretation – it just goes to show that there are many ways of generating energy, and most of them have downsides. Even the ones that are your favourite.

The trouble with log burners is it takes ages for the logs to be ready.

My 2021 log supply…

Frosty roofs, people scraping ice off car windows, 4°C under cover outside. 20°C inside.

I smelt wood smoke so some people have lit up, the main smell outside is petrol/diesel fumes.

I think wood smoke smells great, particularly when riding autumn trails, furnished in colourful leaves, slight chill in the air, dappled sun filtering through the canopy, a distant farmhouse embellishing their stove with more fuel, makes me look forward to the post ride espresso and croissant sat in front of my own stove 😆

Must agree edukator , the cold air is making the diesel nad petrol fumes hang around at face level much longer when riding in town , its overpowering.

Have seen a couple chimneys start to smoke in the mornings this week. No detectable woodsmoke smell over the car fumes.

Im sure there are plenty of studys proving cars are a significant source of polution in urban areas.

Could do alot to learn off the dutch with their flagship car free cities ….

One calm day (or even several calm days can be compensated for with hydro. Many hydro schemes are only used at peak time at present but can alos be used to fill renewable short falls

The UK pump storage generating capacity is 2.8GW. Normal hydro adds around another 0.5GW. Current demand right now is is 32.6 GW. Total energy stored in the pump hydro is 30GWh so at full power the reservoirs are empty in 11 hours. Or less in winter when demand peaks over 40GWh. So for the UK hydro could replace typical 2.5GW winter wind production for 11 hours at best. Not several days.

http://www.withouthotair.com/c26/page_191.shtml

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

This winter National Grid has contingency plans to pay factories to shut down in the evenings in low wind conditions to prevent blackouts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/11933020/national-grid-blackout-risk-factories-paid-switch-off-keep-lights-on.html