F1 Grid Girls under review

Obvs a model is chosen for their appearance obviously a driver is chosen for their driving ability – and possibly ability to fund their drive/sponsorship.
Their looks are neither her nor there and anyway who thinks it is is either making a poor joke or has very poor understanding

No it’s not (**** nuts). Even Suzy Wolff admits it.

As a racing driver, you’re representing a brand and your appearance is part of your job

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/18332772

The article:

the hard hand of evolution plays at least as much of a role in sports interest and participation as policy does—and quite possibly a greater one. And that, like it or not, tips the balance in favor of males.

Me:

It doesn’t change the fact that the motivation is different. Women just aren’t interested in sport as much as men even when participation is largely equalised.

Junkyard:

It really does not say that and the link is there for anyone who can comprehend to read

Hey? It clearly does say that ???

The most backward looking people in this thread are those suggesting that women who’ve chosen modelling for a career are inferior to those who’ve chosen to drive a stupid car in circles.

This.

I’m chuckling that people who admit they have been conditioned by society to regard driving in F1 as being more ‘exciting’ than posing in a skimpy outfit, want to ban people from posing because brainwashing makes them regard posing as less meritorious than driving fast.

In a world riddled with gender bias do the posters on here that are against grid girls let their children watch films where the male is the hero and the woman is the damsel in distress, as portrayed in so many films? Genuine question.. There are many more examples.

Another question slightly unrelated .. Is the lack of females in top motor sports due to perception, or other reasons. Guys are bigger risk takers than girls afterall (in general).. Couple that with the fact that I imagine most racers are introduced to it fairly early by their dads and it’s no surprise that the pool of female talent is so small.

There are many more examples.

Yes, there are 1,000’s of examples – that is the scale of the issue!

Yet in the study above, when participation is equalised, it still doesn’t lead to more women competing?

Is the lack of females in top motor sports due to perception, or other reasons.

Zero men go to SWMBO’s “Stitch and Bitch” sewing/knitting nights. The S+Bers are concerned that men have been conditioning into liking Mountain Biking and think it should be banned to allow Men to enjoy a more valid pass-time like knitting.

Yes, there are 1,000’s of examples – that is the scale of the issue!

Is it really an issue though? I know one girl who has been a grid girl.. She loved it. But she is also a university educated, extremely intelligent lady with a very successful career.

Let’s not think that girls, regardless of age, are limited by what some people see as cultural bias. I’m going to go out on a limb and give them slightly more credit than that.

For what it’s worth I sent her a link to this thread. She sent me back a set of rolling eyes as a response..

I don’t believe having a girls toys section and a boys toy section is sexist. Telling a girl she couldn’t have a boys toy is.

But that’s exactly what segregated toy stores do! They make it clear that this is boys stuff, and it dissuaded girls from wanting it. It makes (some) girls feel that they are being weird or unusual by wanting boy marketed toys. And this is negative. As I say, kids take their cues growing up from all around them. The comments you hear from parents and grandparents constantly reinforce this. I never noticed it til I had girls.

For what it’s worth I sent her a link to this thread. She sent me back a set of rolling eyes as a response..

Not all women are feminists. Think about what this means…

For what it’s worth I sent her a link to this thread. She sent me back a set of rolling eyes as a response..

Don’t worry, Junkyard will soon tell you what she really meant. Afterall he knows what women think more than they do themselves.

But that’s exactly what segregated toy stores do! They make it clear that this is boys stuff, and it dissuaded girls from wanting it. It makes (some) girls feel that they are being weird or unusual by wanting boy marketed toys. And this is negative.

Just like clothes shops then?

In a world riddled with gender bias do the posters on here that are against grid girls let their children watch films where the male is the hero and the woman is the damsel in distress, as portrayed in so many films?

Yes. But we censor the more egregiously sexist films and we go out of our way to find films with positive gender bias. And our kids are aware of sexism and feminism.

My daughter has often been told “but that’s girls stuff” or “really? Not many girls like that” or had some other comment. It doesn’t have to be a negative comment, even positive ones point out that it is abnormal behaviour and that is negative.

Do you really think that the profit driven toy trade would eliminate 50% of their potential market if they thought they could sell more plastic tat to the opposite sex!!??!!

Perhaps the answer is the market doesn’t exist because the sexes ARE different!!

Just like clothes shops then?

Yes. Try finding superhero clothes for little girls that aren’t pink or tokenistic.

Do you really think that the profit driven toy trade would eliminate 50% of their potential market if they thought they could sell more plastic tat to the opposite sex!!??!!

Segregation allows them to sell more crap. A boy doesn’t want a girl bike hand me down, does he? Cos they’ve invented this boy/girl division. They’ve trained girls to want the pink crap version and the boy not to.

There might be differences between sexes (and you know, this has been studied a bit) but even if there you cannot assume that any given child will like this or that based on gender. Because even if there is a difference it is not 100% on either side.

Just like clothes shops then?

Yes. Try finding superhero clothes for little girls that aren’t pink or tokenistic. [/quote]
Well you could get them from the boys section. Just like if I wanted to wear some hot pink nail varnish I’d go to the womens section of the shop. I don’t see a problem with this. The segregation is there for convenience. I would have a problem if someone said I couldn’t wear hot pink nail varnish as that’s for women.

Like I asked before. Do you wear clothes for men? If so why do you expect other people to give up their ambitions and wants for the sake of setting an example to your kids whilst you don’t?

appearance != looks – of course you’re expected to look presentable rather than scruffy, but since you seem to be taking this “where are the ugly drivers” seriously, then I give you Alain Prost and Niki Lauda (just off the top of my head).

Though I’m curious whether you read the whole of that article, or just cherry picked. From further down:

One of the main issues is that young girls have no one to aspire to growing up, whereas a young boy can grow up wanting to be Sebastian Vettel

How do you think grid girls is helping this?

No – I’m currently wearing what I regularly see lots of women wearing.

It’s giving the girls that want to be models something to aspire to. Removing them won’t increase the number of female drivers!!!!

No – I’m currently wearing what I regularly see lots of women wearing.

#strangest

My little girl likes dresses, pink stuff dolls and other girly stuff. My boys liked that too. Sophie also beats the crap out of the two boys, shoots them with nerf guns and likes to ride her bike. If she wanted to be a brolly dolly that’s up to her just like if she wanted to race cars. As for getting rid of brolly dollies is somthing I don’t agree with. I don’t care if they are there or not but it’s not our place to say they can’t do it. Men and woman are, on the most part, in stringently different. Our genes take care of the most primal ways. Ive met loads of promo girls / brolly dollies when I used to do photography and they loved it.

No – I’m currently wearing what I regularly see lots of women wearing.

Go on give us a clue then.

Blimey, do you lot not keep your eyes open? What is one of the most common clothing combos for women?

One of the main issues is that young girls have no one to aspire to growing up

Because you need to be famous or on tv to inspire someone. My sister was inspired to be a vet because of our local vet not because of all creatures great and small.

Ah, because there’s a shortage of that sort of role model in society?

Removing them won’t increase the number of female drivers!!!!

In the long term, considering the wider effects it might well do – that’s the whole point. Do you need that explaining to you?

Yes. Try finding superhero clothes for little girls that aren’t pink or tokenistic.

It’s easy. For yonks my daughter’s favorite dress up outfit was a spiderman outfit.

One of the main issues is that young girls have no one to aspire to growing up

That’s got to be pretty false.

Beside, you can aspire to be people who aren’t your gender – that’s like saying a boy couldn’t aspire to be PM because we currently have a female Prime Minister.

Or Marie Curie couldn’t inspire a boy to get into physics.

As utter tosh as an utter tosh thing.

Straw men are straw manny. Clearly there are plenty of role models for boys in politics and science (there’s not obviously a problem with role models for women in politics at least either). The thing is kids and people in general do aspire rather more to be like people of the same gender as them – that is a basic fact – and the lack of same gender role models is an issue.

Though I have to admit I am quite impressed at a bloke suggesting a women is talking utter tosh on this issue 😆

One of the main issues is that young girls have no one to aspire to growing up that fit in with my own prejudices

FTFY.

Blimey, do you lot not keep your eyes open? What is one of the most common clothing combos for women?

You picked a fairly tame example there. Hardly pushing the boat out in setting an example is it? It would be a pretty boring world if everyone dressed as such. Why not a nice flowery dress, just to show the boys that it’s fine to wear?

Beside, you can aspire to be people who aren’t your gender – that’s like saying a boy couldn’t aspire to be PM because we currently have a female Prime Minister.

Or Marie Curie couldn’t inspire a boy to get into physics.

This. If celeb role-models are highly important which I strongly doubt – If role-models were so important wouldn’t we all be rock-stars or Astronauts instead of Taxi Drivers, Middle Managers, IT workers, Teachers?

FTF Susie[/quote]

FTFY – another bloke telling a woman she’s wrong about female role models in the industry said woman works in 😆

You picked a fairly tame example there.

Sorry, it just happens to be what I’m wearing. It is an example which punches holes in your argument though.

Because you wrote:

I would have a problem if someone said I couldn’t wear hot pink nail varnish as that’s for women.

My son likes nail varnish. He’s stopped wearing it though because he gets told it’s for girls. Similarly molgrips already pointed out:

My daughter has often been told “but that’s girls stuff” or “really? Not many girls like that” or had some other comment. It doesn’t have to be a negative comment, even positive ones point out that it is abnormal behaviour and that is negative.

– there is lots of reinforcement of gender stereotypes going on.

It is an example which punches holes in your argument though.

Not really, go to any department store that has womens and mens sections and there will be gender specific versions of the outfit you posted. I’ve yet to see a dress in a mens section though.

In the long term, considering the wider effects it might well do – that’s the whole point. Do you need that explaining to you?

No because studies don’t back that up. In the one above, even close to 50/50 participation dissent lead to any more women competing in or watching sport.

cite

In the one above, even close to 50/50 participation dissent lead to any more women competing in or watching sport.

I must have missed the section where they discussed the effects of gender stereotyping in society – what page was that on?

But that’s rendered irrelevant. In your make believe world where literal equality prevails- the best you could ever hope for is 50/50 participation right?

And the study shows that even then, more women aren’t driven to compete. The innate imperative to do pointless things better than other people isn’t as strong.

One of the main issues is that young girls have no one to aspire to growing up

This is blatantly untrue. Roll out the ‘straw man argument’ all you like, but there are many role models for girls in all walks of life.

Removing grid girls would have absolutely bugger all impact on what girls grow up thinking they can and can’t do. It would not remove the barriers to them becoming f 1 drivers. it would however remove the opportunity for them to do something that they could quite possibly have a realistic chance to do, make decent money out of, and have a great time doing to boot.

I have no problem with people thinking it’s tacky or unnecessary. but that’s no reason for getting rid of it.

Yes. But we censor the more egregiously sexist films and we go out of our way to find films with positive gender bias. And our kids are aware of sexism and feminism

Would you let them watch an Indiana Jones movie? Imo the narrative of those films is just as gender biased as an f1 race. Perhaps we should ban those as well.

This same shit got rolled out on the podium girls thread.

Lots of judgement about what is “worthy” employment without asking the people doing the job.

Would I object to my currently 3 year old daughter wanting to be a grid girl/monster girl? Nope. I’ve always taught her she can do what she wants. If it makes her happy, fair play.

This is blatantly untrue. Roll out the ‘straw man argument’ all you like, but there are many role models for girls in all walks of life.

Name all the famous female drivers who are role models for them then

No using google

Same with men

Removing grid girls would have absolutely bugger all impact on what girls grow up thinking they can and can’t do

You have no way of knowing this and if we want equality we need to remove all the barriers.

If I want to remove a wall I need to take out every brick, One brick wont make any difference till that one brick makes the wall collapse

I would wear skirts and dresses if they made them for men’s bodies, and they were accepted by society. They fact they aren’t is another example of gender segregation isn’t it? What’s your point?

My wife rarely wears them though, so that confuses the issue even more.

The problem we had was finding underwear she liked. Boys underwear is differently cut.

Would you let them watch an Indiana Jones movie? Imo the narrative of those films is just as gender biased as an f1 race. Perhaps we should ban those as well.

I don’t think you really understand. Yes, many movies are sexist, because society was much more sexist. But movies can still be good stories. IJ was made a long time ago, and we will point out the sexism and the historical gender based roles when we watch. We’ll also watch The Force Awakens which directly addresses and parodies films like IJ, and we’ll point that out too.

However, F1 is being made right now, and it’s real life. And the girls serve no purpose other than eye candy.

Removing grid girls would have absolutely bugger all impact on what girls grow up thinking they can and can’t do. It would not remove the barriers to them becoming f 1 drivers.

No, but it’s a step down the road towards erasing society’s gender bias. My wife would’ve made a great engineer. But she was brought up in a family that were still passively embedded in traditional gender roles without realising it, and even at the same time as overtly trying to promote equality. They didn’t stop her from studying engineering, but she never asked to. And she never asked because she just couldn’t see herself doing it.

The way you perceive yourself is a massive issue. That’s why people keep talking about positive role models for women or ethnic minorities. When you are surrounded by men doing something, or white people doing something, you just assume that’s the way the world is because why wouldn’t you when that’s all you see?

We do watch Indiana Jones etc, but we make damn sure we also watch The Force Awakens and anything else we can find with proper non-token female characters. And not ones where the women succeed by becoming like the men, which is another failing of many flims.

Equality doesn’t mean buggering about with the odds. It means letting things happen naturally. You telling me what to think isn’t equal or fair. None of us have a right to judge anothers view point.
Or put it another way, if you are right, so am I!
If you object to the girls, don’t support their employment by watching the racing. Show some moral strength rather than ranting and doing nothing.