[Closed] F1 2021 - spoilers here

I turned it off after 10 minutes, but then I knew the result at that point.

I keep trying to stick with F1 but keep getting easily distracted. I think Max will be world champion this year, he really has the right car under him now and Merc are lagging ever so slightly. Next year though....I'm very interested to see that goes with the new cars and regs.

Thing is, if you are going to have to move to a low/midfield team, with the reg change it's probably about the best time possible.

They could even find something a la brawn and have a competitive car.

plumber
Free Member
I really like Bottas

Same, I was a fan when he was at Williams. He has the speed for the most part, I just think he lacks a bit of killer instinct.

If Lewis ended up at the back, I reckon he'd find his way back up to top 5, if not the podium. Whereas bottas would get stuck passing the mid field and end up about 8th. It's just that extra little bit that he lacks.

More unexpectedly shocking news from Mercedes and George Russell Russell to Merc next year.

“Long term” contract according to F1.com. No details but that sounds like a minimum of 3 years—no real surprise given that many of the other rising stars are contracted through 2024 or thereabouts.

Bring it on 🙂

Really looking forward to seeing Russell joining Merc next year. I think he’s going to put Hamilton under some real pressure and I can’t see Russell playing the role of number two driver like Bottas does.

I honestly think there’s going to be fireworks between the two.

I honestly think there’s going to be fireworks between the two.

Let's hope so 😁

Oh, it’ll blow the doors off, there’s no doubting that, but I suspect it won’t get too heated. The question will be what Toto does about it if they’re taking points off each other while Max or another driver in another team is up there with them—ie I don’t think the risk is so much the 2016 scenario, it’s the 2007 one.

3 year deal must really sting for Bottas - as they never fully committed to him.

Russel has a really impressive qualifying record, but he has almost never equaled that in races. Hamilton is still a very strong qualifier, so I would expect that to go roughly 50-50, and he has many years of experience racing at the front under massive pressure. My guess is that Hamilton's experience will give him an advantage over the season, probably going to be like Ricciardo versus Verstappen.

I think next year Mercedes will need to be on it to avoid a 2007 repeat, as other has said. Initially it's more likely to be like that than the 2014-2016 years of inter-team fighting with no threat. They'll have to back one horse and given George is younger and new to the team, unless he pulverises Lewis in the first few races they'll back Lewis to be "Number One" with a promise that the second year (and Lewis' last year most likely) is open season and fight among yourselves.

I wouldn't be surprised Lewis has negotiated seniority for his contract term in an effort to win the 8th title and become the official GOAT on all counts and keep that legacy with Mercedes. I suspect if he does it in 2021 or 2022 then as above it returns to equal opportunities until Team orders come into play.

Apart from Red Bull, I think all the teams will have to start with a policy of treating both drivers equally, letting them race each other when there's no danger of losing positions overall, but telling them to hold position when it's needed for team strategy. That will change later in the season if one driver is a contender and the other isn't, but none of the drivers in the top five teams are going to accept being told they aren't allowed to race their teammate at the start of the season and I don't think Hamilton feels he needs that sort of assistance. I think it'll be a moot point for Perez because I don't think he's going to be a threat to Verstappen regardless of team orders.

Albon confirmed at Williams - hope he does better in a more relaxed environment...

https://www.racefans.net/2021/09/08/albons-return-formula-1-williams-latifi-stays/

...and the wallet Latifi stays on too.

I'm pleased about that, always thought he deserved another crack at it.

Excellent - Albon definitely deserves an F1 career, I hope that he makes a success of it with Williams. The final piece in the 2022 jigsaw is Bottas' teammate at Alfa Romeo, which could well be de Vries.

It's looking like de Vries is nailed on for that seat. Can't see Gio redeeming himself, he's had many years of being very average.

I thought the second Alfa Romeo seat was "influenced" by Ferrari (through some clauses in the engine deal), making me think Mick S is a more likely candidate for the second seat there, and DeVries being left out in the cold?

There have been rumours of Alfa switching to Mercedes power, but I just can't see that happening with a headline sponsor (Alfa) part of the same group (Stellantis Nee PSA/Vauxhall etc) as Ferrari.  Put a direct rivals engine in you premium marketing race team?   Doubtful, or the Alfa sponsorship will disappear!  .

Alfa haven't really committed to F1 long term though - I'm pretty sure they are now on a rolling 1 year at a time branding deal now.

Going back to Red Bull, I can't remember if they have ever been able to control 2 equal drivers, there has always been clashes between their drivers.

Webber and Coulthard?

keithb

There have been rumours of Alfa switching to Mercedes power, but I just can’t see that happening with a headline sponsor (Alfa) part of the same group (Stellantis Nee PSA/Vauxhall etc) as Ferrari. Put a direct rivals engine in you premium marketing race team? Doubtful, or the Alfa sponsorship will disappear! .

Isn't there a limit on how many teams an engine supplier can supply though?

making me think Mick S is a more likely candidate for the second seat there

If I were Mick I’d have taken the earliest opportunity to start negotiating a better seat than the shitshow that is Haas (never mind the double shitshow that is Haas plus Mazepin). I always disliked his dad, which unfortunately taints my sympathy, but I can’t help but feel sorry for anyone having to occupy that seat.

Isn’t there a limit on how many teams an engine supplier can supply though?

Believe its a minimum number rather than a maximum

Isn’t there a limit on how many teams an engine supplier can supply though?

Believe its a minimum number rather than a maximum

Not as such. What happens is that every team (bar Mercedes, Ferrari and Alpine) negotiate an engine deal with one of those or Honda or anyone new entering the game, such as Red Bull, they can pick whoever they like.
However, the rule then says that if a team can't agree an engine supply deal with anyone then the supplier which supplies the fewest teams MUST supply them (I don't know what the rules say if there are two supplying equal numbers or what it says they can charge) Before Red Bull sorted themselves out Renault would have been obliged to supply them if they had no other option, that would have been an interesting relationship! Currently it is still Renault (with 1 team) who would be the fall back option for any team without a supplier.

Webber and Coulthard?

That was before they started winning races, now that they're at the sharp end it seems that they can't support both drivers equally like Mercedes/Ferrari (to an extent).

Ferrari are an interesting example for team orders.
1999 Irvine was definite number two to Schumacher, gifted him a win, costing him four points. Schumacher then broke his leg and Irvine went on to lose the champby two points. Team orders cost them the title.
2007 Kimi won the title and should have been the de facto number one but Massa had a fantastic 2008 and lost the championship by one point, had they got Kimi to support him he would have won, but everyone would have thought they were mad. Not having team orders cost them the title.
.
RB never used to admit to having a favourite but it was clear that they favoured Vettel over Webber even when both were in the title fight, giving Vettel Webber's wing for example, before Webber went on to win the race
.
Top marks to Mercedes though, and they way they handled the Hamilton/Rosberg battle, randomly allocating engines or swapping the mechanics over between 15 and 16, its only now that it is not obvious it will be one of their drivers who wins and its just a question of which that they are having an obvious number one and two. In the first half of 19 Bottas was a genuine title contender.

@keithb

Ferrari has been independent of FCA and now Stellantis since 2016, so I don’t think the motor has any bearing on the Alfa sponsorship

Ah, didn't know that...  With Fiat going into Stellantis, I'd thought that Fiat/Ferrarri were part of the same group still,

Every day is a school day!

I think the company that owns Stellantis still has a c20% share in Ferrari so the link is still there.

Thing with Schumacher was that he was faster than all his teammates, that's why he got number 1 status. Irvine was honest enough to admit that.

From what I understand about the Vettel-Webber thing, the team's telemetry showed that Vettel was faster. I remember Webber saying that he thought he could beat Vettel in an old style car but Vettel just nailed the blown diffuser technique. Problem for Vettel is that he needs that rear-end grip for confidence and just looks very ordinary without it.

Verstappen has demolished all his teammates since Ricciardo. If someone turned up who could outqualify and outrace Verstappen, I'm sure Red Bull would be thrilled. That's what happened when Ricciardo demolished Vettel.

Problem with the Ferrari and Red Bull situations for me is how the teams went about things. Mercedes have obviously told Bottas that his job this year is to support Hamilton, but they started the year as equals and Bottas just wasn't able to beat Hamilton or Verstappen. I think that's a much better way to do things than how Red Bull and Ferrari have treated their drivers.

With Albon to Williams; how about a change of engine supplier for them? Honda/Redbull power to Williams, so they will have 3 teams. Merc: Maclaren and Aston. Ferrari: Alpha and Hass. Alpine all lonely.

Current Williams Team Principal Jost Capito was employed at Volkswagen as Director of Motorsport. Coincidentally, the engine constructors (and Volkswagen) are meeting this weekend to discuss new engine regs - VW is keen to enter F1 and had originally planned to use it's successful V4 engine as the basis of an F1 power unit, minus the MGU-H for 2025. Red Bull is also said to be keen to drop the MGU-H...

VW is keen to enter F1

Yet they haven't, despite years and years of speculation. $250 per year isn't a big deal from the marketing budget from a company that size, the problem is that almost nobody buys a car based on F1 performances. Porsche already have a successful sportscar program that is much cheaper than F1. VW itself makes it's money by selling high-quality commuter shitboxes, I don't see how F1 has any marketing value for that. Seriously, does anyone buy a Honda or Renault because of their F1 engines? All the mainstream stuff is moving towards electric vehicles, hard to see how entering F1 has any marketing value.

"Race on a Sunday, Sell on a Monday"

There is probably still some relevance to this in motorsport but not necessarily F1. Single seater prototypes built with the most exotic power units on the planet don't really translate well to the show room floor. Ferrari could probably claim a bit a overlap but I'd struggle to think of anything else.

The budget cap might tempt a few other manufacturers to have a sniff around but I can't see anymore getting involved not as F1 manufacturers anyway, someone else might follow the Alfa or Aston model.

“Race on a Sunday Sponsor a popular sport with the right demographic such as golf, tennis, football, yacht racing, etc. that is a fraction of the cost of F1, Sell on a Monday”

FTFY

Yet they haven’t, despite years and years of speculation. $250 per year isn’t a big deal from the marketing budget from a company that size, the problem is that almost nobody buys a car based on F1 performances.

Quite. However, both Porsche and Audi are working with established constructors on the 2025 engine regs. We've been here before of course, but it seems that the VW Group are serious.

Representatives from Porsche in FIA Engine working group with Renault, Ferrari & AMG.

And here.

Porsche already have a successful sportscar program that is much cheaper than F1.

As stakeholders in discussions for upcoming engine regs, Porsche/Audi are ideally placed for 2025.

Don't forget that back in the late 1980s/early 1990s the engine regs for sports cars and F1 were closely aligned, Peugeot took the basis of their Le Mans engine to F1 with McLaren and well...didn't do quite as well as expected.

does anyone buy a Honda or Renault because of their F1 engines

Clio Williams? Ok, didn't have an F1 engine but the association is there

Single seater prototypes built with the most exotic power units on the planet don’t really translate well to the show room floor. Ferrari could probably claim a bit a overlap but I’d struggle to think of anything else.

McLaren?
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I didn't think the budget cap applied to engine development though, just what the teams paid for their engines? Or have I missed something?

PJM1974
Free Member
Don’t forget that back in the late 1980s/early 1990s the engine regs for sports cars and F1 were closely aligned, Peugeot took the basis of their Le Mans engine to F1 with McLaren and well…didn’t do quite as well as expected.

That was Group C being torpedoed by Bernie though. Taking engine regs that still weren't that reliable over 90mins and asking them to do between 3-24hrs was perfect to make the sports car series implode

This popped up on my youtube feed today, found it quite interesting, it really was a different world back then.

Thats weird as I watched that a couple of days back and youre right how times have changed!

That's a cracking film. It's around that time I first started watching F1 and those are still some of my favourite cars. Admittedly though, reliability has come on a bit. As has safety.

Sadly it was only a couple of years later that my hero Jim Clark was killed which took the shine of things a bit and my attention switched to rallying.

times have changed!

They sure have.

So Toto is saying Merc will use team orders, Bottas is saying he's going to race to win. What could go wrong there?

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/32183734/toto-wolff-hints-mercedes-team-orders-monza-sprint-race

The obvious strategy if Bottas is cooperative would be to let Hamilton through on the first lap and then try to back Verstappen up into the McLarens while Hamilton cruises off out front. Except Bottas is behind Norris on points so he's not going to want to make things easier for Norris. Would be fun to see Ricciardo try one of his late braking passes on Verstappen though. Again, what could possibly go wrong there?

So Toto is saying Merc will use team orders, Bottas is saying he’s going to race to win. What could go wrong there?

Well, there you go. Bottas feeling a little less of the Mercedes shackles now is letting himself off the leash. There’s various articles about how badly he’s been treated at Mercedes appearing, and one wonders whether when in front of Lewis he’ll make anything easy. Yet, Lewis has the tow.

Anyone wondering how Max suddenly found 0.4-0.7 tenths or even why RB were that far down at all?

Probably wouldn't work anyway as Bottas doesn't have a great track record of being very effective in those sort of roles. To be fair to him, the times he has been asked to back the race leader up his tyres have been past their best but even so, the last two or three occasions when he was being asked / expected to do that he has more or less caved in at the first time of asking. Not sure Hamilton would want it either.

Much as I like Bottas, he doesn't have that mysterious "x factor" that distinguishes the truly great racers from the very good. Which will be partly why, despite being in the best car for the past 5 seasons he has still only managed to win 9 races. During which time Hamilton has won 44.

Bottas doesn’t have a great track record of being very effective in those sort of roles

It did occur to me that his purple-purple-purple lap yesterday was a middle finger to Mercedes at a point he should have been keeping the gap to Lewis for Lewis benefit.

I found it interesting to see the difference between the new vs old parts though.

Anyone wondering how Max suddenly found 0.4-0.7 tenths or even why RB were that far down at all?

Red Bull sacrificed Perez to give Verstappen a tow. On pure speed, I think the McLarens are probably quicker over one lap. My guess is that the two Mercs will cruise away out front and it will be Verstappen versus two McLarens for third place. The main race will be interesting because there may be two McLarens versus one Merc and one Red Bull, so McLaren will have a strategy advantage with two cars.

Verstappen may well just have to settle for 5th (in both races). Wouldn’t e a surprise to anyone either, there’s only so much you can do at a track like that if you’re out-gunned down the straights

Verstappen may well just have to settle for 5th (in both races).

Bottas is being relegated to the back of the grid for the race because Merc changed his power unit. There's a decent chance that tomorrow will see Hamilton, Norris, and Ricciardo on the podium with Verstappen fourth.