[Closed] F1 2021 - spoilers here

a car that even Hamilton has said “You can’t just turn up, jump in, and win with”

To be fair, Hamilton’s unlikely to say “you could randomly pluck someone from Formula Ford and drop them in this seat and still win” 😉

driving so close behind Verstappen in order to push him to work his tyres harder, seems, with hindsight, to be a masterstroke, but you need a driver like Hamiliton to be able do that.

In a way, reminiscent of Mansell releasing Patrese at Monza to hassle Senna before Mansell later pounced for the win. Except Hamilton somehow manages to play both those roles 🙂

Though I think he was possibly focusing more on forcing the mistake, like at Portimao.

Verstappen is more of a Senna/Mansell in the “win it or bin it” vein.

Verstappen’s first season reminded me hugely of Senna: he would put himself in a position where he wasn’t driving into people but he put his opponents in a position where they had a choice: back out or collide. It was smart driving and made it clear to everyone from day one how he rolled. Sure, he went on to overstep the mark in terms of defending, but his overtaking was clever and ballsy. I think he’s now back at that point, and yes, very Senna-like in that respect.

a car that even Hamilton has said “You can’t just turn up, jump in, and win with”

Russell had a bloody good go last season

Where does that leave Russell though

Neither Mercedes seat is inked in for next year and Russell’s Williams contract is up. I can’t see a good reason why Mercedes wouldn’t want Hamilton and Russell in 2022.

Bottas looked a prat not letting Hamilton through, and then being passed by Hamilton 3 corners later, effectively putting up no fight.
I'm sure he'll keep his seat this year but I think his own ambitions don't match the reality that Lewis is the GOAT.

there were rumours of Bottas being replace before yesterdays escapades.

Mazepin made history at the weekend? First driver to ever be brought up in live TV radio messages between a team and race control?

there were rumours of Bottas being replace before yesterdays escapades.

There were also rumours of Hamilton moving to Ferrari a while back, also that Joe Biden suffers from dementia and Kamala Harris is really in charge, also that Hillary Clinton drinks the blood of babies. Check on the internet, you'll see there are rumours, definitely.

Russell had a bloody good go last season

Last years car was apparently VERY easy to drive fast right from the outset which is one of the reasons it was so dominant. By the time Russel got his hands on it, they understood it perfectly and how to dial it in with finesse. This years car is more flighty at the rear and doesn't turn in as well as last years. It was one of the things Hamilton mentioned after qualifying and the thing they were struggling with in testing.

This isn't to say that Russell coulnd't handle this in time, I mean he's put up with the Williams, but just saying last years Mercedes was quite a bit more "about the car" than perhaps this year. Russell has also shown that he can make some serious errors in a slightly flighty car.

IMO, the advantage of having Russell there is to have him train-up next to Hamilton in preparation for the next phase of Mercedes dominance.

I know what a rumour is, condescending ****. I mentioned it cos it cropped up on sky previous to his incident yesterday

Here's what we know for sure.

Hamilton is serious about racing next year and Merc is keen to have him stay. That means that it's nearly certain that he will drive for Merc next year. However, Hamilton will retire sometime in the next few years and Merc need a top calibre driver to replace him. Bottas is probably not that guy, I think there's widespread agreement about that. However, he is a solid, dependable guy and Merc like him so he would have to massively screw up for them to dump him mid-year.

Russell looks promising, but he wouldn't be the first promising guy to disappoint. Vandoorne looked really good on his debut and then ended up disappointing, for example. Putting Russell into a Merc next year alongside Hamilton would make sense. Putting him in this year would be a big risk that would make no sense.

On the rumour front, "people are saying" that Lando Norris would also be a good contender for the Merc seat. He has accomplished much more than Russell and Merc could probably do a deal with McLaren to swap Bottas or Russell for Lando, plus a discount on engines. That's just speculation from people imagining what they would like to happen. There's utterly no evidence that Merc are seriously considering Norris.

I can't see Bottas being replaced mid season as Merc on the whole don't do that. As long as he can bring good points home on race day and help Merc to win the constructors title then he will have done the job they require of him. Obviously he has his own ambitions and does still seem to think he is capable of winning the drivers title. Unfortunately, the evidence suggests that he isn't a strong / good enough racer to be able to do that over the course of the season. Sure, if you believe the little hints he has dropped now and again that here have been races where he was dealing with an issue, then we could cut him some slack, but in reality we have seen over the last 3 seasons that he just doesn't quite have that winning x-factor. He can drive very quickly and certainly helps to push Lewis and Max to their best in qualifying but is not fast enough or consistent enough throughout the race. He should have been better / more competitive in Portugal and he should have been able to do better in Spain. But he was too far off the pace and therefore his lack of letting Lewis through just ends up looking petulant and silly.

I still think Russell will be one of the Merc drivers next year which could make things quite spicy with Lewis but could also leave Merc being very dominant with two very strong drivers

true or false, if it's being aired by a premier f1 broadcaster then chances are Bottas has heard them too (or even watched the sky piece before sundays race).... and yet he still pulls yesterdays stunt.

Bottas is the perfect number two points hoover. When he finally realises this, he’ll be an even better second driver. Yesterday showed he hasn’t yet realised it. There is no shame in being the best number two in a team sport - maybe maturity will bring that.

Max has looked much more mature this year. He can see his trajectory. He will be a WC eventually. Now he seems to have patience and be enjoying it. Even losing yesterday. Bottas does not look as if he is enjoying it.

“The secret to happiness in middle age is to lower one’s expectations” Jo Brandt.

It's human nature to get frustrated in situations like that. Merc had to deal with much worse when Rosberg and Hamilton were teammates, and it's nothing compared to Hamilton-Alonso, Senna-Prost, Piquet-Mansell, etc. Bottas is generally fairly level headed so Merc will sit him down and have a word with him, tell him he is a valued member of the team but they don't appreciate that sort of thing. Then things will go back to normal and it will go down as a minor footnote in the history of the sport.

Lewis keen for a new contract

Here’s a thing; if you were Lewis and had won the 8th World championship, therefore having more than any other driver ever, more poles and more wins than anyone ever,would you bow out at that point? He doesn’t need to stay, he’ll retire as the GOAT at a point the cars will change radically. Best to step out then than risk the tail end of your career in a vary different car with no experience in it.

If Lewis goes Russel could step in and Bottas gets another year, or one of the reserves steps up. If Lewis stays Russell goes to no 2 as his protege.

If I was Lewis, I’d be keen to prove that “It’s not about the car”. One more season to do that. Then retire.

Hamilton is serious about racing next year, that's why he did the tyre test of next year's tyres. He's in talks with Merc about his contract. He pretty much has the best job in the world and seems to be still enjoying it. He has no intention of retiring at the end of this year.

That’s the difference between doing a job and doing what you love which happens to be your job. Hamilton seems to be absolutely LOVING driving at the moment. So why not stay and get paid for it?

Is he really bothered about his legacy any more?

100 poles, soon to be 100 wins and likely 8 WDCs. It’s a healthy legacy.

Best to step out then than risk the tail end of your career in a vary different car with no experience in it.

He'll have as much experience as everyone else on the grid. Added to which he's in a team which has (uniquely, IIRC) proven that it can sustain championship-winning form across significant changes to the formula, and he's one of a handful of current drivers who have a reputation for being able to adapt his driving to the car. Next year might throw a lot of things up in the air, but there's absolutely no-one better placed to catch them all and run with them. There's a slim chance that future events might lead him to focus on other interests than racing, but there's zero chance that he's looking at 2022 and feeling scared by some notion of not winning.

He's clearly very motivated at the moment, as the results don't just happen and he's driving better than ever. Even if he won an 8th this year that fire is still going to burn strongly so can't see him stopping.

dodgy going ons ?

Sounds like standard F1 teams working their way around the rules. See also: bendy front wings

No more dodgy than a steering wheel you can pull on to adjust the toe-in of the front wheels...

I think F1 teams push the de-facto rules, and the interpretation of those rules in order to gain an advantage. Other teams get to call them out on it...just another form of competition.

mashr
Full Member

Sounds like standard F1 teams working their way around the rules. See also: bendy front wings

Yeah they're changing the test which implies they found a cheeky-sneaky way to circumvent the original tests e.g. by moving the flexible part out of the scope of the test.

Video of the flex. Be surprised if it's worth 3/10 as claimed but you never know.
https://streamable.com/6xb9xv

There’s quite some movement there though - it’d be interesting to see if RB cars get slower on the straights next month.

Wow! That’s way more movement than I expected to see. You’ve got to give them praise for engineering and building that

Even tiny deflections in large aerodynamic surfaces make a massive difference to drag.

One of the Aircarft wings we designed was manufactured 0.07deg out of position and the result was a 2% increase in fuel burn.

nickc
Full Member
No more dodgy than a steering wheel you can pull on to adjust the toe-in of the front wheels…

It really is - Mercedes told the FIA about DAS to make sure it was compliant. Redbull seems to have specifically designed their wing to pass the test, but still deflect due to asymmetric loading. The rule is quite clear. NO moveable aerodynamic device. That's a rule violation.

It also seems that the FIA are aware that RBs wing will fail the test and are giving them the chance to sort it without a penalty. Christian Horner was his usual deft wordsmith self when asked if the wing was complaint, he said that the wing passed all of tests...It's not the same thing and he knows it.

It's just F1 innit! 🙂

Flexi-wings have been used for donkeys years. If your's passes the tests then your design team have done their job well.

Horner has answered the question. As the rules are currently enforced it’sa legal car which is all it has to be.

@Daffy, yes you're correct, I forgot that DAS was legal. I guess what I meant is that teams are always trying to push the limits of the regulations.

In addition to new, more targeted static tests, the FIA plans to use on-board cameras to monitor the behaviour of wings while cars are in motion in an attempt to spot any excessive movement of bodywork.

looks like the chap that put the camera on the back of the F1 car for the classic Monaco race will get his wish for it to be on a current F1 car earlier than expected!

All F1 wings will flex to some extent - materials being like that and all - so the no moveable aerodynamic device can not mean absolutely no flex.

It can only mean flexes less than a certain amount under certain conditions - or in other words passes a test.

Red Bull do appear to have gotten a good amount of flex while still passing the criteria - which will lead to tighter criteria.

But everyone will have been designing as close to that criteria as possible - and if others have to strengthen a wing to pass the test that didn’t actually flex that much on the racetrack it might be them that lose out.

I think the FIA are considering cameras monitoring the wings for that reason but good luck with interpreting the result and the challenges that follow

Wow! That’s way more movement than I expected to see.

Me too - a quite visible change in wing shape which is surely going to have a significant affect on straight line speed.

That’s the difference between doing a job and doing what you love which happens to be your job. Hamilton seems to be absolutely LOVING driving at the moment. So why not stay and get paid for it?

That’s the crux of it. Hamilton chuffin loves racing. When he’s got competition he gets even better, you never want to see him in your mirrors! If he sees that he’ll have a new younger driver - hopefully Russell - who has already proven himself in a Merc by beating Bottas he will just see it as a challenge and love it even more!
The guy just seems unstoppable. Did you see the interview with C4 guys, he was saying he was up till well last midnight the day before the last race going though ways to improve the car with the engineers. He is also still very fit and doesn’t seem to be showing any lack of talent/sharpness/eagerness compared to Verstappen.

The only thing I think that will change his mind about racing is if the Merc team changes a lot and he doesn’t have that really tight knit team round him, maybe a new boss would change the dynamic?

9 or 10 time world champion? I don’t think I’d bet against it.

The rear wing issue - I wonder how they test for deflection to see if it’s within the rules? That video of the bending seems to show that it flexes from the bottom of the wing structure, maybe where it is attached - not the top pieces. If the testing is done off the car maybe it won’t reflect real world usage?
I am guessing the FIA have already thought about that but it got me thinking.

The test is a static one where they apply a set load at a certain point or points to simulate aero loading at a given speed. The part is allowed to move a certain distance before it fails the test. The thing is with carbon fibre (and any other laminate) is that you can engineer in progressive/regressive rates of flex so what RedBull have done is engineer the layup to be stiff enough to pass the test but any more load makes it flex more. They did exactly the same thing with the front wings a few years ago. All very clever and within the letter of the rules but not the spirit.

It's just another example of the team pushing the envelope and waiting for the rule makers to catch up. Same as McLaren with their DRS tubes through the chassis, the second brake pedal or Brabham with the 'Fan Car'. Brilliant lateral thinking that makes the technical side so interesting. RedBull will have been waiting for the wing to be spotted and just making the most of it until then, same with every team.

If the testing is done off the car maybe it won’t reflect real world usage?

I believe the load tests are carried out on full cars during scrutineering at races. iirc some of them are quite simple - hang a certain weight off the wing, if it moves more than a set amount you get done for it. Also iirc on front wings they (RB) changed the wing so that when the FIA started looking at deflection they changed the design to twist it instead. Suppose these are the tricks you can pull if you're Adrian Newey!

All very clever and within the letter of the rules but not the spirit.

I don't believe that it is within the letter of the law, they have designed it to comply with the tests, not the actual law, it's like VW's emissions test workaround, or drugs cheats never falling a test.

What does the law actually state?

Most specifications can only be interpreted in light of how you measure them.

Like your 230V electricity supply into your house for example.

What does the law actually state?

That moving aero surfaces is a no-no. However, as said above, there will always be some flex so it starts to get murky at that point, then there’s the “we pass the test” part too. It’s all just what they’ve been doing since F1 started

From the BBC

Article 3.8 of the F1 technical regulations states that bodywork must be "rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car" and "remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car".

So the test itself isn't the law, it was just a method of testing probable compliance, if RB have designed the wing to flex under the load created by speed but remain rigid under the specific test that is breaking the law.

I guess that while it is suspected that it is a design feature rather than a design accident they can't prove it, so have issued guidance and updated future testing rather than punishment.

You can only enforce a rule by means of a standardised test, so it is by passing the test(s) that you show compliance with the rule.

'Interpreting' the rules is, rightly or wrongly, an intrinsic part of racing, see BOM Bargain Racement suspension mods, some of the whoppers pulled in WRC, NASCAR etc.

For me it's all part of the fun, I imagine the other teams will be thinking "why didn't we think of that?" rather than "It's not FAIR!"

You can only enforce a rule by means of a standardised test, so it is by passing the test(s) that you show compliance with the rule.

Yes, but passing the test doesn't mean the car is compliant with the law, just that it passed the test. The Ferrari fuel flow scandal is an example of that thinking taken too far. IIRC, they were measuring fuel flow once per second and the Ferrari was compliant with that, but they were increasing the flow between tests. The rule was that fuel flow had to remain below a certain threshold and Ferrari were in deliberate breach, despite passing the tests.

The rule on flexi wings is that they are supposed to be quite rigid, with only minimal deflection under load. Designing them to pass the static load test but to flex in operation is deliberate non-compliance, even if they pass the tests. This is not the same as designing them to flex to the limit of what is allowed, which is what any designer should be doing.

Turkey cancelled, second Austrian GP instead

Grosjean takes his first pole in Indycar at the GP of Indianapolis.
Would love to see him take the win tomorrow.

🤦‍♂️

Oh, we’re backing out of those sort of jokes now, are we? Righto 🙂

Mazepin has arrived in Monaco!

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Special McLaren livery released for Monaco...prepare yourselves!
Monaco

Nice!! Very nice...