• This topic has 169 replies, 60 voices, and was last updated 8 years ago by mboy.
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  • Evil Bikes – frame failures
  • heihei
    Full Member

    Many thanks for the support expressed on this thread – much appreciated.

    To clarify a few things….

    The LBS is not Nirvana – I ordered the frame via another shop before they picked up the Evil brand. They are, however, showing an interest in how this plays out, for obvious reasons.
    The LBS involved is well aware my contract starts and ends with them, not Silverfish or Evil, and have said they will see me right. They (and I ) are also aware that in the first 6 months of ownership (which this is within) the burden of proof is on them that the damage is not a result of a crash or impact, not me to prove that it wasn’t.
    I regularly ride with one of the staff so they are very familiar with where / how I ride, and as such, believe that the damage being as a result of an impact is highly unlikely. I can’t fault their approach to date and fully believe their intention to resolve this to my satisfaction. You could ask, therefore, what’s my problem? At this stage – none as I still believe that it will be resolved properly, hence my postings here and on MTBR being purely factual. Once it has been resolved, however, I fully intend to update both threads on the details of the outcome, and my feelings on the matter.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    How are we supposed to engage in wild speculation if you keep calmly clarifying things like that? :D

    mboy
    Free Member

    How are we supposed to engage in wild speculation if you keep calmly clarifying things like that?

    :lol:

    You could ask, therefore, what’s my problem? At this stage – none as I still believe that it will be resolved properly, hence my postings here and on MTBR being purely factual.

    Chapeau to you sir!

    Sounds like you’ve got a good relationship with your LBS, and I hope everything sorts itself out satisfactorily for both parties.

    In the days of “everything is cheaper on the Internet”, patience seems to be an ever rarer virtue so I applaud your position.

    Rorschach
    Free Member

    Don’t be coming back here with your well reasoned point of view,lack of CAPITALS,realistic expectations and full grasp of your consumer rights.
    We’re only interested if it ends with bombers,weeing in shoes and preferably threats of pyrotechnics directed to small outbuildings.Ideally whilst being factually wrong.
    No go away and think about what you’ve done here.
    Rorschach (disappointed of Waleslandshire)

    mattjg
    Free Member

    hope it all works out heihei

    when you’re back on the dirt we can do Surrey Hills Followingfest.

    heihei
    Full Member

    Matt – was it you riding an orange one with sprog past Abinger cricket pitch this afternoon??

    mattjg
    Free Member

    No, mines’s black.

    Bugger maybe this is a black frames problem! I could be next!! :(

    mattjg
    Free Member

    Have just been out to bike shed check the frame – all stays present and correct.

    Phew.

    I’ll check again in the morning.

    heihei
    Full Member

    Tis dark tho……

    Cheezpleez
    Full Member

    Matt, I’m on my way round to your shed with a lump hammer :lol:

    mattjg
    Free Member

    Bike has survived the night. @cheez sure you went to the right house? (oops).

    heihei
    Full Member

    This has now been resolved, from my perspective at least, so I thought I’d update the thread.

    The first thing my LBS did was to seek a second opinion – in this case they used Carbon Bike Repair in Dorking. They also viewed that it was a result of impact damage, but rather than a direct impact, felt it was a result of a rear wheel impact twisting the rear axle which in turn put and outward flex on the seat stay, causing the crack. This view was supported by some damage to the rear rim, which I hadn’t spotted. They also noted how thin the seat stay was at this point, being able to deflect the carbon with a modest amount of pressure.
    When the replacement rear triangle arrived it also appeared very thin in that area, deflecting under thumb pressure and “crackling”. This was duly sent back to Silverfish and a 3rd rear triangle dispatched. This one doesn’t deflect, and is now fitted to the bike.
    The result of the above is that the LBS opined this was definitely a warranty issue, so have replaced it free of charge. Whether or not Evil / Silverfish take the same line is unclear at this stage, and obviously between the LBS and them, not me.

    As such, I’m now happy – I’ve got my frame back within 2 weeks at no cost to me. However, it’s worth highlighting that this wouldn’t have happened without the support and effort of my LBS, which is Head for the Hills in Dorking. They were willing to back their customer and seek a second opinion, which then led them to believe the first rear triangle wasn’t up to the job. They also loaned me their demo Nicolai (stunning bike btw) to keep me out on the trails last weekend. I should also mention Simon @ Nirvana has been v helpful and supportive, and given he is now the Evil dealer in the area, he’s keen to see riders have confidence in the warranty so has watched this with interest.

    The key question to me is: would I buy another? At this stage, I don’t know. The Following is without doubt the best bike I’ve ever ridden, and I would be gutted not to ride it. Part of me also wants to ride an Insurgent. I love the fact it’s come from a small boutique brand, and accept that because of their size, riders are, to a degree, part of the R&D process. That only works, however, if you are willing to support your customers with a 1st class warranty and back-up, and that doesn’t seem to have happened here. Evil have a killer product on their hands with the Following (and with Bike magazine currently testing the Insurgent, possibly with that too), but customers aren’t going to buy them if they question the support.

    The flip side of this story is that it’s a great advert for the LBS. I’m quite certain this would have been a much more painful process and perhaps with a different outcome, had it not been for them.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    When the replacement rear triangle arrived it also appeared very thin in that area, deflecting under thumb pressure and “crackling”

    :!:

    mboy
    Free Member

    Great to hear that you’ve had a positive outcome.

    For the rest of us riding the same frame, any chance you’ve taken a video of applying said pressure to the affected area, and you could post it on here so we know exactly what we’re looking for? I’m certain the MTBR forum would benefit from this too…

    Bregante
    Full Member

    Head for the Hills in Dorking

    Sounds like you have a great LBS there. Well done to them.

    atlaz
    Free Member

    Great outcome but “crackling” on a new triangle would have me selling the thing off I’ve got to be honest. Nothing sounds good about Evil’s QC process

    Most LBS are pretty decent. I took a knackered SRAM road hydro brake into an LBS and they investigated for a couple of hours then said they couldn’t sort it but the other LBS about 3km away could. I took it there, gave them my receipt (from a third LBS in a different country) and after warning me I could be out 300-400 euros for a new shifter, they sent it off to SRAM. A week later, I get a call and all is sorted and all I have to pay for is workshop time (fair enough as I didn’t buy from them).

    tuskaloosa
    Free Member

    Heihei good for you and great result. Kudos to HftH and Nirvana.

    heihei
    Full Member

    Sadly no can do re: video as both the original cracked triangle and the initial replacement are back at Silverfish.
    Clearly there’s a fine line here – we all want lighter and lighter frames, and certain parts of a bike frame should have some “give” in them, so personally I’m happy to give Evil the benefit of the doubt in terms of it being either the design being a bit too thin or lax QC in the manufacturing process. My bigger concern / question is over the warranty process.

    andylc
    Free Member

    Hmmm…benefit of doubt due to light frame???? Carbon should be super strong and stiff. There should not be any give in a carbon frame with thumb pressure!!! Imagine what a stone would do to that. I had a small rock ping up and wedge between a cross strut in the lower stay and frame a while back – it removed the paint finish from the carbon but the carbon itself was completely sound, and I imagine that was rammed in with some force since it was during a long rocky downhill. THAT is what I would expect from a decent quality carbon frame.

    Good luck though!

    butterbean
    Free Member

    So despite the same old claims of “yep, we’ve sorted it, no more issues with us” they continue to churn out sub standard bikes backed up with industry leading lack of customer service.

    You would literally need to have your head examined to consider buying a bike from them.

    legend
    Free Member

    Hmmm…benefit of doubt due to light frame????

    Nah, the variation shouts of a production process that’s out of control

    sillyoldman
    Full Member

    I’m with Butterbean and Legend.

    mactheknife
    Full Member

    I really really wanted an Evil Insurgent to be my next bike but there is not a chance i am spending that amount of money with all these problems floating about. Saying that its a moot point as Turner brought out my dream bike with the RFX but for me it highlights how a companies reputation can / will be decided on their treatment of customers when problems arise and i didn’t want to be one of those people who 6 months down the line i have a very expensive door stopper.

    Saying that my previous dealings with silverfish have not filled me with any happiness so that was also a factor in my decision.

    jameso
    Full Member

    the variation shouts of a production process that’s out of control

    If you see how carbon frames are made you’d think things would have to be so out of control for frame sections to end up ‘too thin’ that it’s not really believable. The assembly process would be an unmanaged free-for-all if things like that could happen. I doubt assembly missed whole sections of lay-up.

    andylc
    Free Member

    The **** are they up to then??? Doing it deliberately…?

    sa9000
    Free Member

    I thought that the following was a “heavy” carbon frame so where did all the extra material go? My carbon frame shows no sign of flexing anywhere and I think is quite a bit lighter.

    jameso
    Full Member

    andylc, what I mean is that there will be another reason, ie just one of those things when bikes get used, a one-off most likely. Layup patterns are like parts BOMs, there’s an exact number of pieces and a process / lay up order that has to be followed, you don’t just get bits of carbon left over.

    lock
    Free Member

    Would have been a great show of faith by silver fish just to warranty it but if 2nd opinion said was crash damage they in their rights .
    Had mine for few months ,ridden fairly hard ,jumped it a fair bit ridden it the same as my 160 mm travel bike and it’s been awesome ,
    Been a lot of frames sold and this only cracked one I think ?
    I don’t know of a brand that has never had a cracked frame but silverfish / evil need to show they are goner look after customers

    kimbers
    Full Member

    The 2nd opinion of crash damage was so much Bullshit though, a digned rim proves nothing, I’ve knackered wheels just going through rock gardens, didn’t have to crash to do that!

    deviant
    Free Member

    When you’ve got a queue of middle aged men fawning over the brand and saying they’ll own one despite the problems then Evil/Silverfish don’t really have to improve do they?!….if they’re reading this thread they know they have guaranteed customers coming up regardless!….they must be laughing into their cornflakes.

    Just read some of the comments on here, the thread in general has put me off even if I respect Dave Weagle’s input into the suspension linkage….but comments like ‘i wanted one because they’re a boutique brand’….jesus wept, is this shopping for footballers wives?…it’s mountain biking, how about wanting to own a bike because it’s good at the job?…or because it can handle the rigors of actual mountain biking?!

    If the brand has a track record of broken frames and poor customer service then stay away, not fit for purpose springs to mind….but then I don’t need ’boutique’ stuff in my life so what do I know?!

    legend
    Free Member

    jameso – Member
    andylc, what I mean is that there will be another reason, ie just one of those things when bikes get used, a one-off most likely. Layup patterns are like parts BOMs, there’s an exact number of pieces and a process / lay up order that has to be followed, you don’t just get bits of carbon left over.

    Scary isn’t it (yes I’ve seen plenty of carbonz building stuff). So if all the parts are being used you’ve just got to look at all the other parts of the process. Is the material good enough quality? Are the frame builders following process (this could be the order the material is applied, the mixing and application of the epoxy and so on)? Are they taking some batches out of the oven early to speed things up? And whatever else you can think of

    Remember that these swingarms hadn’t all been used, 1st one had, 2nd was found to be faulty prior to installation (and must had been really noticeable, who squeezes tubes when building a bike?) and the 3rd one was deemed ok.

    mattjg
    Free Member

    @heihei good to hear a positive outcome and kudos to H4TH, who are as the crow flies my very LBS.

    When you’ve got a queue of middle aged men fawning over the brand and …

    The Following just got a superlative review in the Nov ’15 What Mountain Bike so the queue’s going to get longer.

    (Is there something wrong with being middle aged?)

    deviant
    Free Member

    The Following just got a superlative review in the Nov ’15 What Mountain Bike so the queue’s going to get longer.

    More fool them.

    This thread shows the QC is crap and the warranty responsibilities of the manufacturer and importer are dire….but hey it got a good review in What Mountain Bike so what the hell!…..there are loads of excellent bikes out there without being lumbered with this pile of junk.

    Enjoy!

    Rorschach
    Free Member

    Sui
    Free Member

    Naughty Naughty Evil.. For those that do frequent MTBR Evil bikes put a nice post up slagging off the OP, they’ve promptly deleted it, but thankfull it lives on in the form of images, faceache and instagram.

    i ask this everytime, but why can’t i post images from instagram?

    The pure fact that a second swingarm could be damaged in the same manner by nothing more than a thumb (yes that digit on your hand), and Evil still wont warranty the original, hmmmm…….

    atlaz
    Free Member

    Easier to just view the actual page[/url].

    If that’s really from Evil they’re even bigger arses than they’ve come across as in the past.

    cokie
    Full Member

    Sui
    Free Member

    Just gone onto MTBR – that post about it being posted from Yorkshire and maybe not being them – you lot are brilliant at detective work… ;)

    mattjg
    Free Member

    I really doubt that’s Evil – the account was created today, it’s only made that post, and I really suspect Americans wouldn’t say ‘mint’. In fact southern English don’t really say that either, I think it’s an (english) northerner trolling and taking the **** out of the Surrey Hills.

    There’s serious potential for brand damage to Evil there so I hope they’re on to MTBR to track down the poster.

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