EU Referendum – are you in or out?

igm – perspective please

My hatred for the Tories cannot be expressed strongly enough. Smug, elitist arseholes.

Yep does make you sorta wonder why ‘Will of the people’ gave them carte Blanche to do whatever they want,seems a trifle naive.

Brexit the gift that keeps on giving.

So lots of contribuitions, all (most) very interesting. But so what? The debates took place last year. Nothing new in terms of the argument. Tomorrow the vote will be passed and we will carry on. Apart from confirming correct legal process, has anything changed? I doubt it.

Still at least it was only 2 days and the timetable for getting on with things still looks achievable. Give the range of options expressed, not sure where the idea that Parliament would deliver a consensus came from??

Yep does make you sorta wonder why ‘Will of the people’ gave them carte Blanche to do whatever they want,seems a trifle naive.

+1

And she’s unelected too, so you really couldn’t make it up 🙂

THM – fair enough on perspective, but where was I inaccurate? And did one well known Brexy gloat that Brexit was won without a shot being fired a few short days after Jo Cox was murdered? And today Cash talking about a “peaceful revolution”.
These people have no shame and I see no reason to let them off the hook for the things they incited.

IMHO Don’t think there’s gonna be any meat on this puppy until the negotiation starts and the first non’s start coming out. All this foreplays a bit boring tbh.

IMO you are going too far to say that Brexies resorted to murder. Sorry but that’s a poor show IMO and not fitting given the character of the victim. But you are entitled to your view of course!

Boring possibly occasionally, but staggeringly polite and charming. Some very eloquent and thoughtful contributions on both sides but as one bloke just said – all a bit late.

Impressed by Wes Streeting from Ilford North – shame that Gove interrupted with more lies, but knocked back by young Wes with aplomb. Bravo.

THM – did you write what you meant there or am I misunderstanding it?

not fitting given the character of the victim

I’m sure you’re not victim blaming but I can’t put another meaning to it.

Misunderstanding, sorry. Would Jo Cox have used the words you did? That was my point. No victim blaming at all.

No she probably wouldn’t.

Probably a better person than me.

(Didn’t think you were victim blaming, but I did want to give you the opportunity to be absolutely clear in your meaning)

dudeofdoom – Member
IMHO Don’t think there’s gonna be any meat on this puppy until the negotiation starts and the first non’s start coming out. All this foreplays a bit boring tbh.

Ah once we are past the point of no return

Yes, I just think you went too far with that one comment. nothing more. Forget it.

IMO you are going too far to say that Brexies resorted to murder.

So he wasn’t a brexy, or he didn’t murder her… or murder wasn’t his last resort? I’m not quite sure what else I can draw from your words here, THM.

You have to face facts that there are some pretty unsavoury characters on the Brexit side of the argument.

And when I can be bothered, I’ll wade through some of the earlier pages of this thread to test your assertion that your views haven’t changed.

You have to face facts that there are some pretty unsavoury characters on the Brexit side of the argument

Not sure of the relevance of that though?

There are zokes true, but that is different from saying that Brexies have already resorted to murder.

Feel free to read every page, you won’t find what you are hoping for.

The only “change” was that I argued that the whole question was pointless for the very simple reason that the thing we would be voting for would not/could not exist in the future by design. The whole thing was premature. I still believe that, The whole thing has been a waste of time and a mistake. A MASSIVE one.

First Europe has to decide what it is going to be. Only at that point, should we have voted.

That aside, I have never argued to leave despite my reservations about the €. Why because we were not part of that folly. I believed that Dave pulled off a very good deal. More fool those who condemned him at the time.

Faisal Islam earlier “as beaming eurosceptics looked on sensing total victory” 🙂

Numerous speakers tonight stating the obvious that had the EU shown flexibility of freedom of movement the UK would most likely not be leaving the EU. It’s inability to shift in responce to Europe wide concerns has lead it to this point.

For me the outstanding moment has been the SNP holding up it’s 650 page book of fiction as a example of the sort of paper the Government should provide. A document which did not even answer what money people would use, a document which based the country’s finances on an oil price of $110 a barrel and topically did not address how any future EU membership would look and it’s timing.

Just an aside. If the 23 June last year “will be remembered as a great day in history, comparable with Agincourt and Waterloo”, the two years after A50 will probably be akin the the Somme.

jambalaya – Member
Faisal Islam earlier “as beaming eurosceptics looked on sensing total victory”

And that’s why Brexies are hated. In one easy quote Jamba.

Sad really.

igm you’ve brought on yourselves with all the abuse us Leavers have had to put up with both dyring the campaign and on this thread. That plus the repeated attempts since to derail democracy.

igm you’ve brought on yourselves with all the abuse us Leavers have had to put up with both dyring the campaign and on this thread.

irony alert…
enimies of the people

Lies, lies, lies, lies and BoJo?
If people are going to make lots of claims then run away from them the day after the result your going to have to suck it up princess. You actually went from making cast iron claims to the “not in a position to make policy statements” to “well our lie worked didn’t they”

That plus the repeated attempts since to derail democracy.

I assume you are referring to the PM in her attempts to prevent parliament doing it’s job?

Numerous speakers tonight stating the obvious that had the EU shown flexibility of freedom of movement the UK would most likely not be leaving the EU. It’s inability to shift in responce to Europe wide concerns has lead it to this point.

It has nothing to do with it. Its only ever been about getting rid of the ECJ, and the regulations that create a level playing field within the single market, and turning the UK into a low tax low regulation economy.

This of course this wouldn’t sit at all well with the population when they find out the employment rights are going to curtailed, or funding to public services will be cut, so out comes the immigration card.

Quite how you are going to reconcile an economy that will need freedom of movement, with restrictive immigration will be part of brexits undoing. See Australia for details.

Ah once we are past the point of no return

We WILL return. We have to do some house cleaning first.

Wonder if Scotland will go for Independance now , and with election in Northen Ireland , would be interesting if Sin Fen get majority .

Brexit might be remembered for breaking up the UK .

There are zokes true, but that is different from saying that Brexies have already resorted to murder.

Well… he is a brexy, and he did murder her for her political views, which I’m assuming in his mind was an action to resort to, rather than his first point of debate. I’ll accept that there are serious questions about his mental sanity, but then the same probably applies to most foaming brexiteers.

jambalaya – Member
igm you’ve brought on yourselves with all the abuse us Leavers have had to put up with both dyring the campaign and on this thread. That plus the repeated attempts since to derail democracy.

I started off thinking that Brexies were misguided but otherwise ok.
But months of xenophobia and abuse (go back through the front pages of the Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph) from Brexies, (while the remain leaning press were partisan but not abusive) changed that. The Brexy campaign was based on fear and hatred throughout.

The death threats (how many Brexies have the police had to speak to now? And some have ended up in court) and the killing changed that. I remember lots of rumours about death threats against Brexies but I don’t remember anything more than rumours – I may be wrong on that.

Some Brexies (Farage for example) did not deserve abuse, he deserved to be in court on racist incitement charges. That poster with its echos of a Nazi propaganda poster was a disgrace – of course I’m sure it was just a coincidence.

And then the vote happened.

And the Brexies tried to abandon the democratic process (not all you did try and suggest just doing a parliamentary vote – but you were a minority from what I saw).

Brexies instantly in the press, in comments columns and in here started name calling – anything from moaners to traitors – against anyone (about half those who voted in reality) who disagreed with them.
And when campaigners went to court to insist the democratic process was upheld, the Brexy press abused them, abused the judges and abused anyone who supported democracy.

I have tried throughout this thread to be factual. And where there are no facts to give honest and reasonably objective opinions. I won’t have managed every time.
Like I say I started off disagreeing, but the Brexies have been teaching me to hate – I am trying to resist.

But let me end on this thought. You may wish to reflect on it.

They say you can tell the character of a man by the company he keeps. Brexies may not, to a man and woman, been racists, xenophobes and thugs, but they certainly kept company with racists, xenophobes and thugs.

And that is not abuse. That is a simple factual observation.

+1 igm, with one addition:

For all the squealing brexies have made when being accused of xenophobia, it’s worthwhile citing the dictionary definition of the word here:

1) fear or hatred of foreigners, people from different cultures, or strangers:
2) fear or dislike of the customs, dress, etc., of people who are culturally different from oneself

I think it’s pretty clear that most brexies have at the very least a dislike to some level of “the customs, dress, etc., of people who are culturally different from oneself”.

I’m afraid if the cap fits…

“would be interesting if Sin Fen get majority”

…because they are so tolerant and understanding of people with different backgrounds.

Personally had threats from an EDL muppet on Facebook over the referendum, so that confirmed everything I suspected about many Brexiters.

no because Sin Fen would probably want to join Ireland .

Many, some, a few, a tiny percentage?

All Brexshiteers are members of the EDL

Killing was a policy of the Brexshit campaign

Wow. You learn something every day…

Us Yorkists are still waiting for our turn. Hope the level of debate will be more informed than I have witnessed so far.
Not once in the whole of these grumpy pages has one of you acknowledged the superiority of those born of the county of York. A UK/EU pox on you all.

Free Yorkshire! An it better be cheap.

IGM plus 2.

Like I say I started off disagreeing, but the Brexies have been teaching me to hate – I am trying to resist.

Step father, sister and brother-in-law all brexopaths. I couldn’t bring myself to visit them last Christmas .

I continue to disagree with Brexshiteers but the recent behaviour of (a small but vocal minority of) leavers following the result makes me question and disagree with them too

“Our” behaviour is (becoming) quite unbecoming. The gutter is not a pleasant place to have a debate

Thank goodness the HoC showed us a more elevated example yesterday

THM – my turn to suggest perspective to you I think

All Brexshiteers are members of the EDL
Killing was a policy of the Brexshit campaign

Did anyone actually say this?
I have no knowledge of whether killing was a Brexy policy – my suspicion is that it wasn’t.
Incitement was. And that led to one killing and many death threats – threats the police took seriously.
Are all Brexies EDL members? Doubt it. In fact I am 99.9999% certain that aren’t all EDL.
But i am allowed to judge them by the company they keep and the Brexy campaign was walking shoulder to shoulder with EDL beliefs.

Wow. You learn something every day…

Indeed you do. For instance, I thought you, THM, could read and interpret information objectively, rather than flying off the handlebar deliberately misinterpreting text in some fit of childish hyperbole. Apparently not…

the Brexies have already resorted to murder.

QED

Ok so now its watered down to a policy of inciting killing. FFS guys, perspective

i hope you didnt take too long composing that zokes. i wasted three seconds reading it, that was bad enough

the Brexies have already resorted to murder.

QED

[/quote]

One brexy has. Do you dispute this? #alternativefacts

Ok so now its watered down to a policy of inciting killing. FFS guys, perspective

Certainly inciting hatred. At least one found enough hatred to commit murder.

i hope you didnt take too long composing that zokes. i wasted three seconds reading it, that was bad enough

Grow up.

Say what you will but the Remainers here are responsible for 99% of the abuse and name calling. As Dan Jarvis and MP after MP said being concerned about immigration does not make you a racist of a xenophobe (posh name calling), as we’ve said many times the name calling worked in Leave’s favour just as the bus moaning kept the focus on Leave’s strong issues of EU budget and wastage.

Landslide victory tonight and White Paper tomorrow. Zero amendments passed.

i wasted three seconds reading it

There is a very simple solution for that

“Say what you will but the Remainers here are responsible for 99% of the abuse and name calling.”

This.

…and it’s counter productive. You can shut down an argument by calling someone a racist, but you can’t win it.

Given the tightness of the vote I reckon with fact and reason instead of name calling remain would have won.

Mind you, did that many remainers really want to win? The MPs were mostly remainers now they’re queuing up to vote for it.

On the other side I’m pretty sure Boris and Give didn’t want to win.

being concerned about immigration does not make you a racist of a xenophobe

That all depends why you are concerned and what it is based on.

If you are concerned about immigration because you don’t want more foreigners in “your” country then that is racist. If you are concerned that the countries population is too high then you would also be for controlling the population via other means (number of children permitted etc,.) but don’t hear that mentioned much?