EU Referendum – are you in or out?

Kelvin, we know what they are and where this leaves us – between the CU and a bespoke FTA

Try as I might, I can’t make the acronyms CU and FTA spell out either “rock and a hard place” or “up shit creek without a paddle”

Sigh – May has ruled out loads of options before negotiations have begun, with her own personal red lines, which she has no mandate for.

REPEAT

Of course not, they are the how not the what. We voted on the latter.

Zokes easy solution to that conundrum

Democracy – marginal win in a referendum to give all the power to the PM…

I admire your conviction to get straight into the shit THM, others have a bit more restraint. As said many times before running flat out down the one way street is not a plan, it’s trying to do something before common sense kicks in.
SNP amendments look solid, like that of somebody holding the government to account.

Zokes THM forgot option 3 which is WTO (which the UK would have to join) that is the low point that realistically could happen.
This SNP one is very good

has provided no assurance that a future parliamentary vote will be anything other than irrelevant, as withdrawal from the European Union followed two years after the invoking of Article 50 if agreement is not reached in the forthcoming negotiations,

It highlights that what is being proposed to allow a vote on accepting the deal is a waste of time – it will be accept this deal or move to WTO/Nothing/Hard Borders & British pensioners deported. It’s a bit of sparkle added to the shit before it’s put on the plate.

Zokes easy solution to that conundrum

I can make them spell FACT, but then I have a left over U, or was it FU…T with a left over A?

EDIT: I have no idea what to do with those three letters, Mike. In any case, I already have a T.

New game: what’s the best word you can come up with from the letters FTACUWTO. Humour me here, as it’s about as constructive as either the debate in here or in the HoC.

Indeed, good job that this isn’t the plan.

Phew…

When you list your concerns (many of which I share) it just shows you what a crap job we all did before the referendum. Given its so obvious, we must have been bloody awful for the majority of voters to ignore us.

We should blame ourselves not the process. We did a bad job. We lost.

Its still a long way from being a done deal and I am proud of the SNP ( who I have never voted for) actually attempting to reflect the position of their voters and holding some principles. Lotts more to come from them yet.

I despise the MPs who personally are against leaving but will not vote against – and thats the vast majority of MPs. ONly 100 or so Mps are in favour of leaving.

No mike, WTO is option 4. TM has done a good job so far at steering us away from that. But if we are honest, that was the basis of the vote. Anything else is an improvement.

Keep at it girl….

We should blame ourselves not the process. We did a bad job. We lost.

Well you gave in, others have not.

TM has done a good job so far at steering us away from that

Wow really? She has her lines, the EU has the cards and the UK needs something. remind me again (as this seems to be the game) rather than the UK having a vote of any meaning on the deal (The UK does not) it’s up to the 27 remaining nations to come up with a qualified majority (from memory it equates to about 20 countries) that means we can drop 6 from the Christmas card list and still keep the deal – remember bullseye.

We should blame ourselves not the process. We did a bad job. We lost

nope we should blame the tories, whove stoked and pandered to xenophobia for years …..

Not just the Tories.

Well you gave in, others have not.

No I simply respect the democratic process, other do not.

I dont understand your second para – but seems like you are (finally) recognising that this is a negotia……. 😉

pleased to say my MP will be defying labour’s whip. 8)

nope we should blame the tories, whove stoked and pandered to xenophobia for years …..

I thought the Tory government were arguing for us to remain?

But again, if we cant accept responsibility and prefer to merely moan in hindsight, then we have only ourselves to blame.

My Mp will be voting against. In line with their constituents wishes, party policy and the wishes of the majority of their country.

and the wishes of the majority of their country.

…and a minority of the UK population. But good for zee. Conviction….

No I simply respect [one aspect of] the democratic process, other do not [agree that one vote trumps all others, and blocks any future votes].

yes some parts are….
It’s also one where we hold very little power
Simple explanation (bullseye was a tv show where you played darts to win prizes – it was on ITV, I guess that wasn’t allowed in your house – they always gambled on some wild promise of an amazing prize like a speed boat screwed up and walked away with nothing)

Other parts – Promising the UK Parliament a vote on the result of any negotiation is pointless the deal is already done.
The EU can reject any deal bu not voting fully for that – it needs a qualified majority

From 1 November 2014 a new procedure for qualified majority voting applies in the Council. Under this procedure, when the Council votes on a proposal by the Commission or the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, a qualified majority is reached if two conditions are met:

55% of member states vote in favour – in practice this means 16 out of 28
the proposal is supported by member states representing at least 65% of the total EU population
Slightly lower figures but still a huge risk.

We all know parts of this are a negotiation, we actually get that you don’t need to keep repeating yourself. The point you are trying so very hard to miss is that the Parliament (that thing people were fighting to make sovereign and bring back from the dead) can impose conditions and clauses on the government in order to allow them to trigger A50. This is also a negotiation where the government could do some simple things to satisfy the 60%+ who didn’t vote leave and to try and work out what those that did actually want along with what is best for the country.

No I simply respect the democratic process, other do not.

Only when you decided you wanted to, and only then to your very unique personal definition of doing so. I’ll give you your due that you have stuck with your new position since you came to it, but it was rather later in the proceedings when you did so. As such, it’s a little rich you trying to claim the higher ground over anyone else here.

Listen to Ken Clarke – despite being from your side of the house, he’s about the only one in there making any sense whatsoever.

As before – democracy requires a well informned electorate. On leaving the EU the majority of the country were not well informed. Its also a wafer thin majority and if the referendum were held now would probably go the other way and once it becomes obvious how appalling the outcome will be almost certainly the other way

compare to the scottish referendum where the electorate were well informed because of the length of the campaign and the mass engagement in the process

I’m white, middle classed ,male, don’t drive anywhere and my mortgage is paid off.
Brexit was designed to benefit me. I hate it but shall laugh at you brexi **** once you see how much your mortgage will go up,how much it will cost to fill your car.
I’m alright jack,**** you it’s the brexit way.

Listen to Ken Clarke – despite being from your side of the house, he’s about the only one in there making any sense whatsoever.

He adds that “hardcore Eurosceptics” would not have abandoned their beliefs if the vote had gone the other way.

He describes those “Eurosceptics'” hopes of future trade deals thus: “You go down a rabbit hole and you emerge in a wonderland.”

Excellent stuff.

.

Incorrect zokes. My position hasn’t changed – other than at the very outset when explained why I thought the vote was absurd – since we are voting on something that by design cannot continue to exist in its current form. After that, I was consistently in favour of remain. After the vote, I have been in favour if triggering A50 quickly so that we (businesses) can get back to some form of normality. The “may”hem so far has been bad for me professionally.

I do not agree with Ken Clarke’s views on Europe (eg, €) nor on his arguments based on representative government in this case. His government made a clear commitment to execute the result of the referendum, in black and white. This is what they are now doing. He, like many others, don’t like the result and are trying their best to override it. That is a very low horse to be on indeed – a see horse perhaps?

“I’m white, middle classed ,male, don’t drive anywhere and my mortgage is paid off.
Brexit was designed to benefit me.”

How will you benefit?

Wow – IDS – how much uninformed shit can one person spout?!?

Lots of good contributions for and against the bill otherwise, from MPs on all sides.

Listen to Ken Clarke – despite being from your side of the house, he’s about the only one in there making any sense whatsoever.

One of the only Tories I have any time for. Too late to be Prime Minister?

As he said on a show at weekend, when Labour won the election he didn’t have to concede and become a Labout MP.

compare to the scottish referendum where the electorate were well informed

I see now why people are worried about democracy not working since people are so badly informed or dont understand what is going on.

The difference between the Book of Dreams (that some believed) and the Leave Campaign (ditto) was merely that the latter did not require 670 pages of BS. It was only 5 core lies.

Wow – IDS – how much uninformed shit can one person spout?!?

Judging by the posters on here, a quite extraordinary amount.

😀

‘enemies of the people’ IDS is the idiot’s idiot, we should expect nothing less

announcements mean shit, unless it’s on the bill it means nothing.[/I]

and which is why she’s saved her speeches for OUTSIDE parliament…

How will you benefit?

I have no idea but the tories don’t seem to care about anyone but people like me.

David Davis indicates that the bill will also withdraw the UK from Euratom.

I don’t remember that being a question on the ballot paper I was given???

Still more brilliant contributions from MPs, including those voting for the bill.
HoC has some great people serving in it, from all parties, on all sides of this debate.

[ My comment about the words spouting from the mouth of IDS still stands.]

I’m white, middle classed ,male, don’t drive anywhere and my mortgage is paid off.Brexit was designed to benefit me.

How will you benefit?

I have no idea

Thanks for your contribution.

Labour’s Kate Hoey currently claiming debating it in parliament is a waste of time 👿

Actually “I have no idea” is a perfectly valid and honest response. It’s v difficult to determine. The base case has already gone so we have nothing to compare with e.g. £ already 20% weaker and inflationary expectations already higher

But of course this isn’t simply an economic issue is it? It’s about having a say/more control over our future – remember that argument? 😉