EU Referendum – are you in or out?

you blithering eejit

Now, now cougs, you should be setting an example of treating each other with respect even if the arguments are bllx

“Zokes, perhaps the reason we lost is a tendency to lose perspective as you wilder comments highlight. By 2020, our economy is likely to be somewhere around 4% smaller than it would otherwise have been. OK, not good but not a disaster.”

Agree – IIRC 6pc smaller after fifteen years.

Which, I think, is why MPs are willing to vote for it. It’s just not going to be that bad.

All the whining is doing is demonstrating a failure to respect the vote and the democratic process

I don’t respect the vote. It was an opinion poll, people cannot and should not be entrusted to make big decisions when the vast majority of us are ill-equipped to make an educated, experienced choice. This is why we have politicians.

It’s important to note though that I do respect the opinions of those who voted, which isn’t the same thing. As I’ve said repeatedly the sensible thing to do in the wake of the referendum would’ve been to act on the reasons people voted in order to appease the (actual) majority of people regardless of which way they voted. The country was split down the middle, the only logical course of action is a compromise solution.

A “hard Brexit,” or ignoring it completely and carrying on as normal, is by turns be a disservice to Remain or Leave respectively. So I don’t respect that on the back of it they’ve decided to completely ignore the wishes of half of the voters.

And as we’ve done to death previously, I don’t respect that a referendum vote on an individual policy being held as a mandatory “well, that’s what we’ll have to do, then” decision has anything remotely to do with the “democratic process.” We vote for MPs, not for policies, and we expect those elected representatives to then act in our best interests, not to blindly do what we tell them. We’re proles, not newspaper owners.

The country was split down the middle, the only logical course of action is a compromise solution.

Precisely. Lurching from one state supported by half the population (in EU) to another state supported by half the population (out of EU) still leaves 50% of the population pissed off. That is not in any way an outcome a sensible government should be supporting.

I don’t respect the vote. It was an opinion poll,

OK, if that is your starting premise, then there is nothing more to debate.

There is of course the counter to you concerns of half of the population (yes we did we see what you did there, nice spinning), your solution is even works since it ignores the wishes of the slightly bigger half who want us to leave the EU.

the only logical course of action is a compromise solution.

But you’re not arguing for a compromise solution, you’re arguing that we should remain in the EU, that’s not Compromise, it’s the direct opposite of what we voted for.

But you’re not arguing for a compromise solution, you’re arguing that we should remain in the EU, that’s not Compromise, it’s the direct opposite of what we voted for.

I havent agree with you much on this topic ninfan, but +1

still leaves 50% of the population pissed off

Well, 48%, the loosing side.

48% of voters….

who knows about those who didnt vote?

There is of course the counter to you concerns of half of the population (yes we did we see what you did there, nice spinning),

Spin? Of those voted, it was as near to a 50:50 split as makes no odds (and I said “half” as I was trying to avoid yet another 48 / 52 / 37 / 27 who knows what other statistic argument). My point was that the country is split down the middle and you’re seriously pulling me up for rounding by like two percentage points?

But you’re not arguing for a compromise solution, you’re arguing that we should remain in the EU, that’s not Compromise, it’s the direct opposite of what we voted for.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Leavers voted leave for any number of reasons. Some may not be reconcilable, I don’t know, but many are. Some voted because they want tighter control of immigration for instance; we can do that already without having to leave the EU. Some believed the bus lie; again, we can give more funding to the NHS without leaving the EU.

And of course, some just want out at all costs. There’s no reasoning with these people, largely because they don’t seem to have any actual reasons, they just want it.

You’ll never please everyone. But by finding out why people voted out and addressing those concerns, you’ll please more people overall than any other course of action.

But you’re not arguing for a compromise solution, you’re arguing that we should remain in the EU, that’s not Compromise, it’s the direct opposite of what we voted for.

Well I for one would be quite willing to compromise given the near 50/50 split in the population, but the referendum was too blunt an instrument for that. Yes I accept there is room for reform in the EU – that should be evident in any organisation. What is it REALLY about the EU that makes people want to be out of it?

keep calm, i was pulling your leg about saying half of “the population” when referring to the losing side instead of “half the voters”

Meanwhile, the other half of the population have got no voice, no representation, and are being wilfully ignored and shouted down.

Why do you think that the votes of those on the other side to us have less value than the ones on our side. In my book, they are the same.

We will have a compromise, that is what happens in a negotiation

While we will no longer be members of the single market, we will continue to have access to it. The unknown is what form that access will take. By definition – a compromise…

Meanwhile back to bad losing….

Meanwhile back to bad losing….

No. Having less is the new winning.

While we will no longer be members of the single market, we will continue to have access to it.

Thank you for the assurance. Will that access be more or less expensive than our current arrangement?

keep calm, i was pulling your leg about saying half of “the population” when referring to the losing side instead of “half the voters”

(-: I was extrapolating. The vote, rightly or wrongly, is supposed to be representative of the populace as a whole (that’s how opinion polls generally work, you don’t interview everyone, just a sample). Knowing what those who didn’t or couldn’t vote would’ve chosen if they had done is speculative at best.

Speaking of speculating I’d like to bet that if voting had been mandatory, Leave wouldn’t have won (and they almost certainly would have got demolished if 16-18 year olds had been allowed a vote), so in saying “half” I’m probably being generous.

Why do you think that the votes of those on the other side to us have less value than the ones on our side. In my book, they are the same.

I don’t, that’s exactly what I’ve just been saying.

Thank you for the assurance. Will that access be more or less expensive than our current arrangement?

More. That’s why I voted to remain.

I don’t, that’s exactly what I’ve just been saying.

Good cougs, well more of the same value of votes were to leave the EU than to remain. So that is what we are doing.

OOI, which of the many opinion polls are you referring to? I was referring the the referendum which was a different thing

You are either being loose with you choice of words or spinning deliberately. Hmmm,….

I know.

It’s ****ing stupid, isn’t it.

Its not smart no, but there we are. Life is like that at times. Character is about how you respond to good and bad things that life throws at you, often in a random manner.

Right now, we have a challenge. Character is shown by responding to it in a positive manner, not whining, making false claims, sticking our heads in the sand. Leave that to the SNP.

THM – I not whining, I am responding positively.
Those who voted to leave, with the fewer jobs and lower standard of living that entails should be allowed to have that. For me to go against their wishes to be worse off would not be fair in them.
At the same time those who voted for tolerance, prosperity and an outward looking society should not be overlooked and I will do my best to support the 48ers in those goals.
Everyone gets what they want. Can’t say fairer than that.

Of course character is also about digging in and playing you part, paying your way when the time comes, not quitting and running away when it is your turn to carry the team.

Character is shown by responding to it in a positive manner, not whining, making false claims, sticking our heads in the sand.

No, character is shown by sticking with and arguing for a set of beliefs despite being called a whiner or a moaner etc.

You are Jambalaya and I claim my £5.00.

PS – I draw the line at the Minford’s zero tariff proposal that would kill the vast majority of manufacturing and farming in the UK – his view not mine. May’s tax haven idea sounds remarkably close to Minford-ism.

Still not seeing these positive benefits to leaving that we asked about a page or two back (beyond the eloquent and compelling “who cares,” incidentally. Anyone?

not whining, making false claims

I’m not whining, frankly I’m terrified.

Which false claims would they be?

“I don’t respect the vote. It was an opinion poll,”

Ditto, it means nothing.

I had the second opportunity in eight days to vote euro-positive so M. Hamond got my vote for the second time in the lefty primaries here in socialist land.

“I don’t respect the vote. It was an opinion poll,”

+1

Those who voted to leave, with the fewer jobs and lower standard of living that entails should be allowed to have that. For me to go against their wishes to be worse off would not be fair in them.
At the same time those who voted for tolerance, prosperity and an outward looking society should not be overlooked and I will do my best to support the 48ers in those goals.
Everyone gets what they want. Can’t say fairer than that.

No one gets anything, that’s just a fantasy. Be real.

You are Jambalaya and I claim my £5.00.

You can, but I charge interest at an outrageous rate. You may want to reconsider.

“I don’t respect the vote. It was an opinion poll,”

Ditto, it means nothing.

The ONE thing that is was not, was an opinion poll. We had those totally separately unless we are making more false claims to hide the fact we lost.

But you are right, you don’t respect the vote. THAT is obvious.

The ONE thing that is was not, was an opinion poll.

Do you need me to dig out the Government documentation which explains that referendums are not legally binding? Or remind you of the recent legal battle which confirmed that the Government didn’t have the authority to make it so?

“The ONE thing that is was not, was an opinion poll.”

All it was, AFAIK, was a measure of public opinion. It’s not legally binding in any way at all.

If we’d voted to Nuke Bristol it would have been ignored.

No you need to be precise in your language that is all.

if you are claiming that on the 23 June 2016 we had an opinion poll then you are either mistaken or spinning, you decide?

Can you tell me which polling organisation conducted the poll – if it happened?

Remind yourself what the recent court case referred to. Here’s a clue, a R_F_R_N___. An easy starter for 10.

All it was, AFAIK, was a measure of public opinion. It’s not legally binding in any way at all.

If we’d voted to Nuke Bristol it would have been ignored.

Even if the people had spoken?

No you need to be precise in your language that is all.

You know what I mean, language or no, you’re just splitting hairs. As OOB says, whether you call it a poll, a referendum, a vote, or a cheese sandwich, it’s still a means of gathering opinion and has no legal (“democratic”) basis.

If we’d voted to Nuke Bristol it would have been ignored.

Having seen May’s recent performances I disagree. Cue Binner’s favourite photo… .

No I am not. You are deliberately choosing words to make a point. They are incorrect. The vote on the 23 June 2016 was not an “opinion poll”. FACT.

You can try the trick of those you chastise here and repeat the same claim, but it will not make it true.

Still not seeing these positive benefits to leaving that we asked about a page or two back (beyond the eloquent and compelling “who cares,” incidentally. Anyone?

Irrelevant – You had a chance to make that argument beforehand, you did, we listened, and decided.

You’re still trying to refight the referendum rather than concentrating on what comes next.

You’re still trying to refight the referendum rather than concentrating on what comes next.

Forget Putin, I reckon Sturgeon has hacked everyones’ brains and computers

If we’d voted to Nuke Bristol it would have been ignored.

If we could have slightly more than a five minute warnining thou, I’d be vary greatfull.

My biggest moan apart from all the lying on both sides is that anyone with half a brain would have put some small print that you had to have a specific majority say 60/40 a vote which is so close is just asking for trouble.

Steaming ahead with a narrow majority on a non binding referendum will probably not be greatest decision ever taken when history is written about this.

ninfan – what comes next is the fightback to prevent this piece of national self harm

THM : Wow, the vitriol you have reserved for the SNP/Nicola Sturgeon is quite something, you should really let it go otherwise i fear you may become an embittered solo voice emanating from that high horse you’ve mounted.