EU Referendum – are you in or out?

molgrips – Member
Rosscore, that is a good post. However a huge part of the problem is the way things have happened, not just the end result.

If we’d had years of debate and years of debating, addressing the issues and working through, if we’d eventually come to the conclusion based on real evidence and experience that we really would be better off out, then that would be different.

However what we had was a political gamble by Cameron for the sake of his own credibility. He played a game and lost. That is NO way to run a country.

Thank you, and yes I totally agree, but the only reason he got back into power (and he was more shocked than the backstabbing Miliband was at the outcome) was the promise of the referendum, something you might recall Brown promised and reneged on. Personally I don’t think Cameron should have resigned, I’m glad he did and happy we have a woman back in charge, it’s the only thing those bed wetting Tories understand, todays news of the disability checks being dropped is I bet her doing.

Then GrahamS, well spotted, that makes excellent reading if only half of that comes to pass what a better place this country will be. A Plan indeed.

cchris2lou – Member
So Rosscore did you just vote Leave for ideology reasons?

No, genuinely I lost the results of twenty years of my life precisely because we are in the EU, my opposite number who’s business in Switzerland is still enjoying what I helped build, but the centralisation process in Europe wiped out my little empire and our 30 odd staff, so yes I was bitter and it won’t get me back what has gone, but the type of business I could rebuild if I have the enthusiasm for it would operate better out of the single market.

Then there is all the other stuff, read that Plan of GrahamS’s link, it makes exciting reading.

There are still serious issues hanging over us all as a result of the crash, a good read (and watch) is a book and movie called the Big Short which highlights just how bad things really were/are and have yet to be fully unwound.

True but what does this have to d with our relationship with Europe?

Europe hasn’t even begun to deal with their issues and these current market worries with Deutche Bank and our own RBS have some way to go and are more likely to cause grief than us leaving the single market imv.

Indeed, we remain overleveraged and once again Central Banks are flooding the economy with liquidity at a time of (un-naturally) low interest rates. Remember what happened the last time they did that?

But again, this has nothing to do with Brexit. Our membership of the EU is essentially about how we want to manage our economic relationship with our largest trading partner(s). But this was never at the heart fo the debate. Instead it was about the (irrelevant in this respect) structural issues (eg the folly of the €) which do not affect us directly. lies about our financial exposure to EZ debt issues with a healthy dollop of racism on top.

So we had an great situation with free and cheap trade, trading relationships negotiated with most of our major non-EU trading partners and non of the crap that goes with membership of Sturgeon’s new favourite currency. Its hard to imagine how that could be bettered.

And now….. 8O

Fair enough, at least you have genuine reasons.

As for IDS plan, it won’t happen. Why would the EU give free access to the single market?

Why would they offer the benefits of membership without the costs that they have to bear – they might be foreign but they are not stupid?

I think you all ought to spend a few minutes reading that Graham S thing in depth, it answers all your questions better than I can.

I’m unhappy to read of your funding issue, is it likely to end immediately given we haven’t actually gone anywhere yet or are your controlling powers using the moment to unsettle you in pay negotiations?

I work in cancer research, and a quarter of public funding comes to UK science from the EU

Theres been no cuts so far

but science funding takes several years to secure, researchers are always thinking 3,5,10 years ahead to ensure the next grant is in place when the current one runs out

as the largest recipient of EU science money the UK has done incredibly well out of this, we are the top destination for science money and the best scientists across Europe. Its one of the reasons we are the best country in the world for science output per £/$ put in.
More so because our own government contributes much less than similar countries (france, germany etc) to research funding.
Our big universities such as Oxford and Cambridge attracted a huge amount of research their funding (20%) from the EU. As do private companies research departments like BT (25m) and Rolls Royce (50m).

all of this is up in the air now, European researchers who have been happily paying taxes and working here for many years are now uncertain of their future, many of my colleagues are already looking to return to Europe.

Some of our most prestigous science institutes that have helped shapoed global science are in jeopardy, including the Sanger centre that holds the European Bioinformatics Institute and projects like the Galileo stanav systems we all rely are are now in jeopardy.

While EU funding sources looking ahead are no longer considering the UK as a destination for collaborative or entirely UK based projects, really big initiatives like Horizon2020 and ERASMUS will continue the present funding until Brexit happens its been confirmed they will be closed to us when we leave. So the government will have to make up billions in investment just to continue projects currently running.

The very confused messages coming from government only make the situation much worse.

In the short term the falling pound has hit our research as much of our equipment and reagents (the largest proportion of any research grant) are imported and we have had to revise spending plans.
The prospect of more redtape and increased cost when securing visas for the best EU workers is also a worry (its much more hassle to recruit from outside the EU)
this is a great post that reflects on how much harder research in teh UK is if you are non-EU
http://scientistsforeu.uk/2016/05/brexit-american-scientist-perspective/

The full effects of this will not be felt for several years, just like Nissan halting investment in their sunderland plant
Even if we were to somehow stay within the EU/free market/ have access to EU funding, whats happening now will have a detrimental effect in the future.

https://www.ft.com/content/753b2a42-1c39-11e6-b286-cddde55ca122
https://www.ft.com/content/1f0d22c2-6619-11e6-8310-ecf0bddad227

rossocore

the problem with IDS ‘Plan’

is that its pure fantasy

hence, his cake and eat it post

Will do Ross but distracted by golf and a rather nice bottle of SA red!

As for IDS plan, it won’t happen. Why would the EU give free access to the single market?

Don’t they know who we are!

I was kind of enjoying until the Redwood nonsense. And then some big putts went in. Might save it until tomorrow!!

.

you lost – get over it

No. I’m not obliged to get over the crass stupidity of this whole farce.

I see BoJo The Clown is supporting “Hard Brexit” now too. Excellent.

Mr Johnson told The Sun: “Our policy is having our cake and eating it.

“We are Pro-secco but by no means anti-pasto”.

..

Asked about his relationship with Brexit Secretary David Davis and Mr Fox, Boris replied: “We are a nest of singing birds.

“In fact I think Bob Marley once wrote a song which goes, ‘Woke up this morning, smiled with the rising sun, three little birds on my doorstep singing sweet songs.

“A melody pure and true.

“This is my message for you.

“Don’t you worry about a thing cos every little thing is gonna be all right.’”

— The Sun[/url]

I am so very reassured. 8O

(also is it just me or does “Hard Brexit” sound like a Direct-to-DVD Steven Seagal film?)

you lost – get over it

We all lost.

IDS has a rather limited understanding of most things, but that’s fine as he has always ‘believed things to be true’ even in the face of cast iron proof of the lack of truth of his assertions.

And he has such a great track record of getting things right doesn’t he? No? really?

So in short, anything with his approval should be treated with intense suspicion and, quite frankly, derision

Don’t they know who we are!

Ronnie Pickering?

I’ve spent a few minutes reading that doc, and yet to find anything other than fantasy or wishful thinking – I mean it makes a big positive out of the devaluation FFS. Maybe rosscore is a quicker reader than me and had already got to the bit at the end where they face reality.

We all lost.

Not all of us

1972 European Communities Act to be repealed on Day 1 of Brexit. Removing authority of ECJ imemdiately A50 is triggered.

Also further storiy confirming there will be no early election (uncessary, unwanted amd the longer it goes the more the in-fighting within Labour continue)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-david-davis-great-repeal-bill-brexit-article-50-european-union-a7341116.html

That’s the porpoises **** then

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/29/uk-faces-european-court-for-failing-to-protect-porpoises

Well that makes sense. Once we are out of the EU then we are no longer subject to its laws so ECJ jurisdiction ends.

I’m more worried by the bit at the bottom that says:

At the same time, the new Bill will convert existing EU law into domestic law, while allowing Parliament to amend or repeal any other EU law after scrutiny and debate.

The Bill will also include powers for ministers to make some changes by secondary legislation, which is not voted on by the Commons in the same way a piece of primary legislation would be.

Converting EU laws into domestic laws is fine and sensible. Being able to sneakily edit them in the process, without a vote in the Commons, is less so.

1972 European Communities Act to be repealed on Day 1 of Brexit. Removing authority of ECJ imemdiately A50 is triggered

If this is serious – and not yet more bluster from the Tories – then it’s going to get very scary and very legally messy. What happens to Scotland, NI and Wales? It scuppers any chance of a soft exit, no free trade with the EU, no Common Market.

Removing authority of ECJ imemdiately A50 is triggered.

Hang on, surely “on day one of Brexit” is the day we leave, not the day we trigger Article 50 (which just starts the two year leaving process)?

The article says they “plan to introduce the Bill as early as the spring, with its passage through Parliament set to take place in parallel to withdrawal negotiations in Brussels.”

I note you haven’t commented on IDS’s “Plan” yet jamba. Thoughts?

Jamba – as I read it that is just a bill that says all current EU law is to be recognised as UK law. Fairly procedural as otherwise there would be large holes in our law.
The ECJ bit is perhaps more interesting as cases that are there now might not be finished prior to the new bill passing (assumption given the current UK parliament) and therefore either the lawyers are about to make a killing of it will be somewhat more nuanced than a newspaper (even a broadsheet) cares to portray.

Edit: GrahamS, secondary legislation – good spot. That feels somewhat undemocratic, ministers appointed not elected (elected as MPs yes but not ministers) making changes to the law, probably in cahoots with some unelected civil servants. If Europeans tried that Brexiteers would be foaming (even more :wink: ) at the mouth.

You’re buggered Ben. Even worse your leader is going to compound matters by seeking to join the Euro. Buggered from all sides. Bad luck mate!

You’re buggered Ben. Even worse your leader is going to compound matters by seeking to join the Euro. Buggered from all sides. Bad luck mate!

Frankly, at the moment if we had to adopt the Ruble I’d still say it’s worth it – a U.K. outside all European legal protection and trade arrangements is going to be a horribly insular, backward, racist place to be.

:D

horribly insular, backward, racist place to

Rest of the World vs European … yes please All.Day.Long.

Ben we can put your statement above with the rest of the dire predictions which we can corss reference over the years to come.

This isn’t actually news is it? That’s one of the basic procedures necessary for us to leave – along with the incorporation of European law into UK law. If we do indeed leave that is all good and sensible stuff.

Removing authority of ECJ imemdiately A50 is triggered.

That’s not exactly what the article says though is it? As Graham points out, we haven’t left the EU when article 50 is triggered, and wouldn’t actually be in any position to remove the authority of the ECJ at that point, it’s simply another thing which happens at the point we do leave. Again very sensible.

The only possible contentious things there are the timing, and the article certainly doesn’t suggest at all that these measures would be enacted before we actually leave the EU up to 2 years after triggering article 50. As you were.

I thought you already lived in Glasgow?

Ben we can put your statement above with the rest of the dire predictions which we can corss reference over the years to come.

best write it on a bus and parade it round the country as a central foundation of our campaign then ;-)

Tory ministers allowed to change the laws without a vote ?

what could go wrong ?

We would be buggered in the Ryder cup without out our EU teammates

Vamos!!!

Graham no not yet, will do so. Timing A50 trigger vs end you could be right, I read it as immediate. Also any changes to law must be voted on by Parliament.

@igm yes agreed we have all current EU laws as of day 1 which dos make sense I think. The key point for me was always that the UK court should be the final arbiter, the actual EU laws themselves where secondary. Once we are out of the EU we won’t have tax judgements passed up to ECJ or deportations stopped (as we can’t treat EU citizens differently to out own). Over time we can revise the laws dependent to some degree as to the trade deal we have.

I thought you already lived in Glasgow?

Yes, and much as I make fun of Glasgow, it’s a very open, welcoming place for migrants. I know quite a few, from Poland, Germany, France, Iraq and elsewhere, and even after Brexit they still feel very welcome here. We voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU, remember.

Jamba – the crossover might be interesting though.

Of course we’ve always had the right to deport EU nations back to their country of origin for certain things have we not? That’s one of them EU laws or rules or somefing

@aracer could be interpreation as I read it as repealed on Day 1 of A50 which would be new. If as you and Graham suggest the repeal is at the end then it would not be news. If it’s not news why is itmon front pages of Indy and Telegrapgh and presss briefed (?) ahead of the conference.

I wonder who is on Marr tomorrow.

We will still be subject to EU laws and regulations – all goods and services destined for the EU will have to meet their (yes their) standards

To get headlines, Jamba

Because one of the toxic triumvirate is shouting his mouth off without mummy’s permission again? We can’t possibly do all that immediately on triggering A50 – well I suppose we could, but to do so would be to unilaterally end the 2 year negotiating period and immediately leave the EU (I suppose that’s actually what those buffoons want, but I don’t think the boss does).

@ben – you know I’m taking the p right? Of course we all know the problem you have is sectarianism not racism!