[Closed] DSG gearbox fault - repair or get rid of car.

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Selling with a known fault is bad (c)karma, I believe we buy any car will hold you responsible if you sell like that.
Also giving the problem to someone else who would have also worked hard to pay for the car is really a horrid thing to do.

There are places who can do DSG refurbishments, a place in Nottingham IIRC who do it for £450 or so, last time I looked. VW can only offer you a complete new mechatronics, however the units are serviceable - I changed the main solenoids lying on my back under the car.

The car is a good fit for me in many ways but I think even if it gets repaired I’ll still have lost confidence that it won’t happen again.

I always favour fixing cars. Given new cars cost so much repairs are nearly always cheaper. And remember, a car is not a single thing, it's a collection of parts. If the mechatronics is bad (more likely just a bad valve somewhere) then a new unit is a different unit and not related to the old one.

If the generally reliable forks failed on your bike, and you got new forks, would you be worried they'd fail again? Or worry that the freehub would be next? The exception is if something has a known design flaw and fails all the time, but I don't believe the DSG gearbox is such an item.

The cars six years old, 60k miles and still has a year’s worth of PCP payments and a balloon payment of 2700 quid outstanding.

Voluntary termination - just walk away
https://www.moneyexpert.com/car-finance/voluntary-termination/

Thanks guys. My only concern would be because I've read about people getting the mechatronics replaced and it hasn't fixed it so the gearbox has needed replaced too, and that's closer to 4k all in. You're right though anything new or even used cars at the minute are silly money for what you get.

Sounds more like you need a transmission specialist. We recently had a similar issue with the wifes Kuga, local Ford specialist told us the clutch plate had disintegrated and the end was nigh. Quoted almost 3k for clutch and box. Took to a gearbox specialist and they replaced the haldex unit for £450. 6 months later its still silky smooth and issue free (touch wood). If you are midlands based id recommend Driver Transmissions in Birmingham.

With a PCP you’re in a tripartite agreement. This means you, the finance company & the dealership all have an interest in this vehicle. You could walk away and leave the finance company & dealership having to foot the Bill themselves or you could try to negotiate a discounted price or contribution from the other parties.

You’ll be in a particularly strong position if the car is otherwise mint and you can show that it isn’t abused.

I’d check the MSE website/forum and get some advice there. A DSG gearbox shouldn’t go pop in 60k miles but if you get no luck at the dealership/finance company then try find a specialist.

I had my DSG fail/explode on my VRS Octavia. Nothing could be done for it that was economically viable. I took it to a VAG specialist in Milton Keynes who had it sent away to a transmission specialist. I strongly suggest you get some advice as a first step to getting it sorted. Mine had problems for a month but thought little of it as I always kept it serviced etc. Don’t wait, start getting it sorted.

I had my DSG fail/explode on my VRS Octavia. Nothing could be done for it that was economically viable. I took it to a VAG specialist in Milton Keynes who had it sent away to a transmission specialist.

Interesting, so did it work fine after they replaced it, or are you saying it wasn't economical to repair so you scrapped it?

Friend's golf mk7 1.6tdi-dsg had issues at similar mileage. Went to the specialist in Notts. Ended up costing him just under £3,000 because the first fix didn't sort it (~£700 part/job - unsure what), I believe it ended up needing full replacement. Was almost 6 weeks of messing around.

It's made him hate / lose all faith in the car, but he got it done because you might just adopt another set of problems by buying another car

VW group cars in my experience always seem to be trouble. Which is a shame because they're nice/'affordable'

My only concern would be because I’ve read about people getting the mechatronics replaced and it hasn’t fixed it so the gearbox has needed replaced too

Unlikely IMO from what I understand. But I've picked up a few things from reading a lot about VWs and their issues.

People are always told 'oh don't go to the main dealer' but then they take it to a 'friendly back street garage' and they aren't necessarily properly up to speed on the fine details of VW transmissions. Mechanics always sound confident, 'oh yeah, on these it's the blarble blurb that goes' when that is not always true and is sometimes bollocks.

A lot of posts come from the US and the situation is different there. Main dealers do seem to be absolute shysters who know nothing, whereas this hasn't been my experience. Sinclair VW of Cardiff are well trained, knowledgeable and willing to talk to me on a technical level which few other garages are. However they're only able to do the jobs on the book which VW have given them and that means mechatronics replacement.

So I would definitely talk to a transmission specialist. They seem to be common and with the number of DSGs about* these days they must have seen plenty. Many advertise DSG knowledge.

* I just did a search for used Passats on the dealer website and about 90% of them were DSG

fwiw, both the powershift gearboxes from ford of this approximate era (getrag 250 and 450) which also appears in their premium vehicles (volvo etc) are made of chocolate as well. On the 250 (small engines) a leaky oil seal drops oil onto the clutch rendering it useless, and on the 450 the DMF is held together with plastic retainers that unsurprisingly disintegrate and float down the (shared) oil channels and block things up in the mechatronics, starving it of oil and causing a £2k-£3k fix.

When you say it's six years old, That's not going to be to the day. Was it actually under or over six years old when you first reported the fault?

or try and get out of the car in some way either selling it to a dealer without them knowing about the fault or webuyanycar?

Please don't do this.

Oh btw if you're near Cardiff I can run the gearbox diagnostic which might help.

I keep looking at Octavia's and I know I'm going to get one eventually. I'd love a DSG because they're great to use but threads like this still put me off.

How can something that's been around for so long and is so common still cause so many headaches?

Is there a way to look after them while they're healthy to prevent problems or is it still just luck of the draw?

Is it a petrol or diesel ? If it's diesel did it have the oil changed in the gearbox at 40k miles ? I have an older DSG box in a petrol so no oil changes but VAG did swop and change oil types because of problems.

You need someone that knows what they are doing to read the fault codes and use their experience to pin point the issue. That includes both the engine and transmission, they are linked as a system, and will stop each other working if they are not happy.

DSG gearboxes run two clutches, one for the odd bank of gears and one for the even bank of gears.
It may not be a clutch problem, but could be a fault elsewhere that is resulting in the clutch engagement being inhibited, e.g. the forks which control the gear selection are in the incorrect position, there is a pressure issue (pickup blocked, pressure control valve not working correctly).

How can something that’s been around for so long and is so common still cause so many headaches?

There are simply a lot of them, so you will see what seems like a lot of failures, but when you compare it to the population of sold vehicles, it comes out as pretty low.

I would agree with last post it sounds like the fault handling system is opening the clutches from what you describe.In which case a diagnostic tool should quite clearly tell you what's causing this, unless it's a myriad of issues.

Oh btw if you’re near Cardiff I can run the gearbox diagnostic which might help.

Very kind offer thanks, unfortunately i'm in Newcastle so a bit of a hike!

Is it a petrol or diesel ? If it’s diesel did it have the oil changed in the gearbox at 40k miles ? I have an older DSG box in a petrol so no oil changes but VAG did swop and change oil types because of problems.

Petrol. 1.4tsi. 2015 so supposedly after the 'wrong oil from the factory' issues were solved but who knows...

You need someone that knows what they are doing to read the fault codes and use their experience to pin point the issue. That includes both the engine and transmission, they are linked as a system, and will stop each other working if they are not happy.

So i've just borrowed a really cheap generic code reader and it gives the fault code of P0810 Clutch Position Control Error. I understand these are generic so a proper VW computer would make more sense but that maybe narrows the cause down a bit. Not found much on a google search about that specific code except for on manual gearboxes.

Passats on the dealer website and about 90% of them were DSG

That could tell you several things tbh, you might also conclude (for example) that they’re rubbish and nobody wants them.
A better number would be what percentage of passats are sold with dsg.

Maybe try an owners club forum... Usualy useful for stuff like this, others should be able to share similar issues and perhaps recommend an indie specialist who's familiar with these gear boxes?

Passats on the dealer website and about 90% of them were DSG

That could tell you several things tbh, you might also conclude (for example) that they’re rubbish and nobody wants them.

But the way people buy cars has changed. More and more people are leasing or taking PCP's. If you're doing that from new when the car is under warranty and you're only going to be keeping the car for a limited time before changing then people will probably choose the DSG box as there is less risk of ownership vs buying the car and taking all the risk once out of warranty. So might have nothing to do with the reliability of the boxes per se.

Fundamentally a DSG box is a normal manual box with a clutch pack so mechanically not particularly complicated and pretty conventional. The clever bit is the mechatronics and electronics. Plenty of high milage DSG, PDK, Powershift cars knocking about now so nothing fundamentally wrong with them these days. Occasionally manual gearboxes and conventional auto boxes pack up. You can't account for abuse of the owner..lack of servicing etc. For example I can imagine those without mechanical sympathy will hold DSG boxes on the clutch when sat at a red light on a hill as you might with a conventional aut. That is a big no-no with a DSG as you're just sat there grinding your clutch plates together. Do that with a manual and you're clutch life will be much reduced too and probably a significant contribution to dual mass flywheel faillures.

First thing's first...get a positive diagnosis of what the problem is. Until then you can't know how much it will cost to fix and can't make an informed decision. No need to guess these days.

Another vote for speaking to a specialist.

Most garages aren't that skilled on gearboxes other than the basics and whilst DSG / DCT gearboxes are becoming more and more popular they are more complex than either manuals or even autos.

Faults are actually very rare, and the boxes themselves are brilliant IMHO but obviously with so many on the roads now, faults do happen. Also, in my very limited experience, Dealers don't really mentioned they need a oil change every 40k miles. Sure they'll send you a video and tell you, you need new brakes, tyres, wipers, brake fluid, ****ing AC regas, but they never mentioned it to me, in fact they weren't that keen to do. I get the impression there's no money in it.

P0810 Clutch Position Control Error

So to me that is definitely the safety software opening the clutches since they're not responding as expected. That's either going to be the actuator not working correctly, the position sensor incorrectly reporting position or the clutch physically not moving where it should. VAGCOM should be able to run tests on the actuators and sensors to help determine where the problem is. Either the garage you spoke to did this and concluded the mechatronic unit needs replacing, or they're saving time and shooting in the dark knowing it's hard to fix specific parts of that. If you don't trust them then go to a dealer or a specialist who's willing to do all the tests. Or close out the PCP as suggested above.

That could tell you several things tbh, you might also conclude (for example) that they’re rubbish and nobody wants them.

That was the used section, so someone bought/ordered them.

Fundamentally a DSG box is a normal manual box with a clutch pack so mechanically not particularly complicated and pretty conventional.

I'd dispute that - the gearing is a bit like a normal manual but there are two concentric input shafts and two concentric clutches. Then there are a load of hydraulic valves and linkages that operate it. So yeah just like a normal manual except for all the bits that aren't, which is most of them.

A traditional auto is a much more mature device, given that they have been driven all over the USA and Canada in their hundreds of millions for like 40 years.

However, as said - DSGs aren't especially unreliable. Reports of faults may be old posts, or newer posts on older cars and of course no-one goes on an internet forum to report that their car's fine.

How can something that’s been around for so long and is so common still cause so many headaches?

As above - you don't know how many are out there running fine, do you?

@airvent I've a full copy of VCDS and would happily run a scan for you. I'm just down in Houghton.

Doesn't a DSG unit weigh something like 50kg more than a standard manual 6 speed box? They're definitely not just an automated manual (like selespeed was/is).

I don't quite know what to think about this thread. On Friday I went and put £100 down on a 3 year old Mondeo. 2.0 Tdi with Powershift. Yesterday I mentioned this to my regular independent garage owner who sucked his teeth and said "give me the reg. no." Half an hour later he called me and said "I've just spoken to my friendly service manager at the local Ford garage and he says don't touch it with a barge pole - if you want an auto get a DSG."
I went straight back to where I bought it and changed it for a 3 year old Passat estate 2.0Tdi with DSG...
Fire/Frying pan interface?

There's a wiki on DSG for all us armchair mechanics and engineers to decide how different it is to a manual or auto transmission. It's certainly not one of those hateful automated manuals that were popular in the early 2000s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-shift_gearbox

I went straight back to where I bought it and changed it for a 3 year old Passat estate 2.0Tdi with DSG…
Fire/Frying pan interface?

If it's done over 40k miles, ask if it's had it's service, it likely to have been done by a dealership as they offer a fixed price that cheaper than any specialist can offer in my limited experience so there will be an electronic record of it. If it's not been done and drives fine, just budget to have it done, it's about £200 and is every 40k miles, although there are people on Briskoda who have taken theirs to 80k miles no problem. In fact, i'd guess most non-enthusiast owners never have it done, because it's buried deep in the owners manual and again, in my experience dealers don't push it.

I don’t quite know what to think about this thread

We've had a Passat diesel estate with DSG for ten years. No issues at all. Oil changed at 40k and 80k as advised

It's got 29k miles, previous owner Motability and I got the 3 year RAC platinum warranty which my local man says is the bees knees. It's on a 14 day money back approval so the first place it's going is FMS, my long time garage for a once-over.

Is it a petrol or diesel ? If it’s diesel did it have the oil changed in the gearbox at 40k miles ? I have an older DSG box in a petrol so no oil changes but VAG did swop and change oil types because of problems.

There is no differentiation to DSG oil change whether its petrol or diesel on older cars. every 40k for both. I have done this religiously in my MK5 GTI. (6 speed DSG) There is however some debate as to whether the newer 7spd DSG box needs oil changing or it is sealed for life.

If you have an old petrol 6 speed DSG I would be getting oil changed.

It’s got 29k miles, previous owner Motability and I got the 3 year RAC platinum warranty which my local man says is the bees knees. It’s on a 14 day money back approval so the first place it’s going is FMS, my long time garage for a once-over.

It'll be fine, they're a great bit of kit IMHO, makes any car quicker and more economical (but not at the same time obvs).

My last car was DSG. The issue was I couldn't find anyone who could commit to repairing it. Only 14k miles too. Main dealers or independent. No one knew which part was at fault and I wasn't prepared to replace very expensive parts in the hope it would resolve the problem.

It wasn't producing any fault codes which seems to be a common problem with DSG diagnostics.

Excellent performance when they work, but far too complicated, time consuming, and expensive to be a long term purchase for everyday use. Ended up part exchanging while it still moved.

Very interested to know how people imagine 'closing out the PCP' is viable. From what i know the vehicle must be returned in appropriate condition to age and mileage. No known faults and subject to BVRLA condition reports.

How is anyone going to hide a vehicle with a fubarred DSG gearbox when handing the keys back? Some of the collection guys can be pretty lax but i guess the big warning sign will be when he cant drive it.

My biggest concern here is that someone bought a car on any kind of long term finance and didnt consider the risk when the car was out of warranty. Six year old car with 12 months payments PLUS a final balloon payment left has either been miss sold or the buyer is an idiot.

I’d love a DSG because they’re great

I really do not get this (and I have said it on here several times before). I hated mine (Audi A6 Avant with the V6 diesel engine) - the slow pick-up of first gear at junctions drove me to distraction and almost put me off autos for life (as it was my first ever auto). My next car was a manual but I have now just gone back to auto (in a Mercedes) and the gearbox is infinitely better and I'd finally say I am converted and prefer auto. I still wouldn't get a VAG auto though.

VW group cars in my experience always seem to be trouble. Which is a shame because they’re nice/’affordable’

As pointed out elsewhere on the thread, no mechanical system is perfect, and out of millions of vehicles globally, even a failure rate of 0.5% is going to be a significant number.
I gave away my nineteen year old manual Octavia, which I’d owned for fifteen years. It had an annoying habit of dropping into limp-mode, or at least the turbo boost would cut out, which a rolling restart would fix, but other than that, and a leaky sunroof, it was still happily doing 155 miles a week commuting to work, as well as weekends and evenings, and it never had a service as long as I owned it. Brilliant car, it’s now in Poland, being driven by the son of one of our workshop bodywork technicians.
My EcoSport, on the other hand, cost significantly more, and will get regular services, first one is due in another 10,000 miles.

I am not a fountain of knowledge but there have been many slight truths about the dsg service life in this thread.

Facts:
-There are 2 types of dsg. Wet clutch and dry clutch.
-Wet clutch dsg (DQ250 and up) have a service life of 40k or 80k depending on generation (Audi sometimes say 36k).
-Dry clutch dsg (DQ200) are "sealed for life" but can have the oil changed.
-Yours very likely has the DQ200 being a lower output engine. It has nothing to do with petrol vs diesel.

My opinion:
Get the oil and filter (if it has one, I can't remember) changed as its relatively cheap to do and wont cause any harm. If the dealer says it cant be done I'd suggest taking it to another dealer/garage who can do it. It can definitely be done as I've seen it first hand. As part of the process it should cycle the fresh oil through the valves etc releasing any blockages. There is also a process to reset the clutch points which any VAG garage can do (or at home with VCDS/OBDeleven).

I really do not get this (and I have said it on here several times before). I hated mine (Audi A6 Avant with the V6 diesel engine) – the slow pick-up of first gear at junctions drove me to distraction and almost put me off autos for life (as it was my first ever auto). My next car was a manual but I have now just gone back to auto (in a Mercedes) and the gearbox is infinitely better and I’d finally say I am converted and prefer auto.

The thing to remember is that a DSG is NOT an auto - it works on a completely different principle. In my experience they are far better suited for high performance versions whereas an auto (with a torque converter) isn't quite as good in that situation.
In my car it's brilliant but in my wife's T-roc its a bit meh.
I've also had a big v6 diesel with an auto box and that was slow at picking up from roundabouts but I'm pretty sure that was related to turbo lag than the gearbox.

How is anyone going to hide a vehicle with a fubarred DSG gearbox when handing the keys back?

Easy. Buy a skoda and give ot back to the dealer. Skoda don't acknowledge DSG faults without a fault code. (Slight sarcasm but also my own experience)

Get it scanned and if no fault codes are logged, it technically has no fault to rectify before handing it back.

The thing to remember is that a DSG is NOT an auto – it works on a completely different principle.

I don't doubt it works differently than 'traditional' auto boxes but it is an automatic box in that it changes gears automatically and the user does not need to make manual gear changes.

In my experience they are far better suited for high performance versions

Mine was the 3.0l V6 diesel so (whilst it isn't quite RS6 territory, it was still high performance). The auto in my Merc is coupled to the 300d engine (within 10bhp of the Audi I had) and it is SO much nicer to drive. Of course this is all just my personal experience and preference but I have always disliked the DSG.

The thing to remember is that a DSG is NOT an auto – it works on a completely different principle.

It is an auto because it shifts gears for you. It's a different technology to other kinds of auto, but it's still very obviously automatic.

the slow pick-up of first gear at junctions drove me to distraction

And as we all said at the time, yours must've had a fault or needed a re-adaption. Mine is not at all slow off the line, if I stamp on the pedal it'll wheelspin and set off as if I'd been operating the clutch myself.

Anyway this isn't a general whinge about DSG thread. The OP already said he likes it.

3 year old Mondeo. 2.0 Tdi with Powershift.

I think this will be the updated 450 getrag box which doesn't have plastic bits in it any more, so no known issues like the older cars had.

My biggest concern here is that someone bought a car on any kind of long term finance and didnt consider the risk when the car was out of warranty. Six year old car with 12 months payments PLUS a final balloon payment left has either been miss sold or the buyer is an idiot.

Thanks for your idiot comment, highly appreciated.

I did take out an extended warranty when the car was purchased but it didn't cover the full term of the PCP and the cost of extending it even further was more expensive than most of the failures I expected of a car that age. Six years old isn't exactly ancient. This wasn't a failure I'd factored into my 'risk' calculation, but then again it's the first car I've purchased having only had company cars before that. How many six year old cars fail to the tune of several thousand pounds of specialist work?

And as we all said at the time, yours must’ve had a fault or needed a re-adaption.

And I said at the time that other courtesy cars I had during my ownership were similar (a slightly newer A5 was better but still suffered). My brother has a Seat Leon FR and that also suffers from the same issue.

I gave you the option of it being miss sold too.

It wasnt the fact that its a six year old car with a major fault that i was referring to, thats border line unlucky. Its the fact it still has another year of payments to go so will be seven PLUS a balloon payment to make which is probably equivalent to another couple of years payments. In essence you have a car on finance until it is 9 years old. This is buying a car you cant afford imo.

Fire/Frying pan interface?

All I know is my 2011 DSG Passat has been trouble free for the last 8 years. 106K on it now. Some people on the thread are chatting nonsense.

The thing to remember is that a DSG is NOT an auto – it works on a completely different principle.

I don’t doubt it works differently than ‘traditional’ auto boxes but it is an automatic box in that it changes gears automatically and the user does not need to make manual gear changes.

In my experience they are far better suited for high performance versions

Mine was the 3.0l V6 diesel so (whilst it isn’t quite RS6 territory, it was still high performance). The auto in my Merc is coupled to the 300d engine (within 10bhp of the Audi I had) and it is SO much nicer to drive. Of course this is all just my personal experience and preference but I have always disliked the DSG.

I've noticed you've mentioned it a few times before, it left me wondering if you had a DSG or an 'normal' auto, Audi offered both at different times on the C7. Ironically perhaps, the RS6 has a traditional auto, despite Bugatti, Porsche and Lamborghini using them, Audi stuck with the 8 speed auto.

That's not to say it isn't a thing, my Superb Sportline is incredibly fast off the line but until I got used to it, and it got used to me (there's an element of adaptability to them) I had a similar issue.

The car doesn't 'know' whether you're joining a busy roundabout, heading off the line on a track day or pulling out of your space in Tesco.

In mine if pull away slowly, it will usually default to 2nd for the sake of economy I guess. if you're used to creeping forward at roundabout to get ready then it will creep in 2nd and then when you give it the beans it was pull away slowly and if you think "oh shit" and floor it, it will drop down to 1st and then go, causing a tiny, but worrying delay, not to mention it's all very loud and fussy.

Alternatively, if you floor it from a standstill, it will pause for a moment to let the revs build before engaging the clutch, again this tiny pause can seem like nothing is happening - there's no way you'd be able to pull away faster with a manual, but without anything to do the wait seems long and it causes a worry.

I'll admit I've gotten into the habit of pulling the 'stick' back and into Sport when I need to make a quick getaway, but you don't need to really.

It all sounds very complex, but it all became second nature to me.