Nobody should be gain a full licence in a manual transmission car until they have changed a clutch.

Still like using the clutch as a “hill brake” now eh? 😈

And put the bloody handbrake on when stopped. It can reduce the comedy insurance claims if when someone runs into the back of you.

Depends how long I’m stopping, and if I’m behind a few cars that will take a while to find 1st, release the hand brake, put down phone, etc before they move off. Usually it’s either hand brake and neutral or foot brake and 1st ready for a quick off. So no hard and fast rule, do what is right for the situation, or just what I feel like.

As above gears for go, brakes for slow is what I was taught by an ex-plod advanced driving instructor who’d retired and was teaching civies to drive. Slow down in top gear (or whatever gear you are in), drop the clutch at the approprite speed, if you are to accelerate before stopping slip it in to the right gear and away. Using the gears to slow down is a hang over from when brakes where crap, and as said brake pads/discs are cheaper than clutches/gearboxes.

till like using the clutch as a “hill brake” now eh?

And put the bloody handbrake on when stopped
Ugh yes, sitting in traffic while the car in front rolls backwards and forwards as the driver tries to balance holding the bite point with sending a text/picking their nose/changing the CD. 👿

Even worse on the bike when you filter in behind a car and it starts rolling towards you!

Stoner – Member
^ good point.

On the motorbike when engine braking I always turn the brake light on with the RH lever just to indicate to those behind I’m slowing, usually when going into a lower speed limit zone.

you’re one of the few, motorbike engine braking is bloomin sever and can catch you out. Also, my bimmer with its brake regen thing slows the car down quite quickly too when you lift off..

As for the brake lights on at a standstill, i’m guilty of this in the Auto especially as it has the “auto hold” device, that said i don’t care as it makes my many hours of sitting in traffic jams bearable.

Even worse on the bike when you filter in behind a car and it starts rolling towards you!

Don’t get so close

I don’t think it does. I’m sure I’d read that coasting requires fuel to keep the engine running whereas engine braking will turn the engine with no fuel input?
[/quote]

I think we agree, but you’re misunderstanding the term – presumably you think by “coast” that I’m suggesting disengaging the clutch or sticking it in neutral? I deliberately wrote “lift and coast” a F1 term which means just lifting off the throttle. As opposed to engine braking which is where you deliberately use a lower gear to slow down. Sorry for the confusion.

Modern stop-start cars don’t cut the engine until the car is in neutral with the clutch released.

Should tell you all you need to know really.

I learned to drive in 1999 and was told to use the breaks to slow as “pads are pennies” It was also highlighted to me that on today’s crowded roads, giving notice that you’re braking (brake lights) is a reasonable thing to do.

Daughter is about to take her test too.
I was genuinely surprised that they teach ’em to sit there at the lights with clutch down/biting.
I was also amazed that they tell ’em to apply the brake through the corner now. I was always told that I should have done all my braking before the corner. Car feels much more stable if you’re accelerating through a corner.
They do teach a bit of “eco-driving” though, which covers the “keep rolling – don’t stop” thing.

Gotcha!

Stoner – Member
I use neutral, but then if my thrust bearing goes, it’s me who has to drop the landrover box to fix it..

I’d suggest you actually ‘drop’ the gear box 😉

scotroutes – Member
I’m sure I’d read that coasting requires fuel to keep the engine running whereas engine braking will turn the engine with no fuel input?
😆

howsyourdad1 – Member
18 pages , Guy Martin gets mentioned on page 6 , Top Gear by page 3

I’ll see your 18 pages with top gear and raise you:

23 pages.
a contribution from at least one moderator.
The UCI will permit the use of hidden electric motors in road bike races.
A celeb will sadly pass away, during the course of this thread reaching page 23.
At least one member will flounce, this may be related to a brief discussion about left foot braking.
And the thread will drift sufficiently to cover the subject of overtaking.

Who’s got the biscuits?

😀

Ecky-Thump – Member

Daughter is about to take her test too.
I was genuinely surprised that they teach ’em to sit there at the lights with clutch down/biting.
I was also amazed that they tell ’em to apply the brake through the corner now. I was always told that I should have done all my braking before the corner. Car feels much more stable if you’re accelerating through a corner.

Why would you teach those things like that? I can’t think of any advantages.

Depends on each situation, for me.

Gauge how long you are likely to be sat there.

Pull up to a set of lights that have just changed or a level crossing & I’ll stick the car in neutral, foot off clutch & handbrake on (level crossing I’ll generally turn the engine off as well).
Pull up to a T-junction where I am turning left & would probably leave car in gear with foot on clutch & brake, but then if no clear opportunity to pull out, I’d stick the handbrake on, leaving car in gear & foot on clutch (obvs…)

I can see though how it might be easier and less stressful for a new driver to pre-select first & sit with the clutch depressed & the handbrake on, ready to get going.

Regarding the slowing down stuff – again it depends, but I tend to use engine braking. If it’s a situation where I think it might not be obvious to the people behind that cars are slowing (car stopped ahead to turn right,) I might just use brakes or use engine braking but just tickle the brake enough to get the lights on.

People say that engine braking wears the engine/gearbox, brakes are cheap replaceable items etc. but I managed 144k miles out of my first car before getting rid – 1.4 Fiesta & that was on it’s original engine/gearbox & clutch. Currently on 271k miles on my Ibiza and again it’s on it’s original engine/gearbox & clutch so I think done sympathetically (match engine speed on the downshift) it’s not a problem.

Same goes for handbrake – people often comment that I pull the handbrake on without depressing the button & it will ‘wear it out’….erm, yes perhaps the ratchet will wear in a millennia or so, but in the 9 years I’ve owned the Ibiza, it’s not been an issue…

As mentioned several times above – worst thing is to sit at a junction/roundabout/set of lights and keep the car still by riding the clutch waiting to go.
It serves no real advantage, takes more effort to do & wears the clutch more quickly. Quite often you see people riding the clutch at a set of lights, obviously wanting to get a quick getaway, but then when the lights actually changed they aren’t ready for it and have to reset the biting point or whatever & it would have just been quicker to sit with car in gear, foot on clutch & hand on handbrake…….

Engine braking is engine dependent, particularly noticeable on bikes. My 650cc V twin had great engine breaking, my 1000cc IL4 hasn’t

It’s more expensive coasting to a stop than in gear. When you’re coasting the engine is using fuel to keep it running. When you’re slowing in gear the fuel shuts off as the wheels keep the engine running

Never sit with the clutch down (car or bike), extra hassle, always leave it in neutral when I’m stopped

Daffy

Modern stop-start cars don’t cut the engine until the car is in neutral with the clutch released.

Yes, I was going to mention that. If the OP’s wife ends up in a car with stop start the stop start function won’t work till she takes her foot off the clutch.

When I was taking lessons to get my NI licence my instructor taught me that riding the clutch when stopped was a fault and I’d get marked down by the examiner each time I do it. I distinctly remember it because I’d been driving like that for ages on my Irish provisional….had to force myself into the habit of selecting neutral/handbrake even when it really wasn’t necessary for the purpose of the test.

…and the other half are wearing out their clutch rocking backwards and forwards

Daffy – Member
Modern stop-start cars don’t cut the engine until the car is in neutral with the clutch released.

Should tell you all you need to know really.

Yeah, deactivate the stop/start. I did, that bloody thing was driving me round the bend.

When I learned to drive (circa 1990), block-changing was a new thing. Previously people were taught to go down each gear individually engaging each one when slowing; I was taught to brake in whatever gear I was in and then dip the clutch just before the engine starts ‘chugging’. Coasting with the clutch down was a no-no as you’re deemed not to be in full control. If situations change (eg, lights go green) you select whatever gear is appropriate, block-changing from say 5 to 2 or whatever.

When stopped, I was taught to engage the handbrake and put it in neutral if I was going to be stopped for more than a few seconds. Clutch wear aside, it’s safer in the event of a rear impact as others have said.

I’d hazard that on a modern car, the difference in clutch wear between neutral and in gear with the pedal fully depressed is nominal. Riding the clutch is what kills them, as regularly demonstrated in supermarket car parks by old women in tiny cars who rev the knackers out of the engine whilst moving at walking pace. I can only assume that you lose your sense of smell when you hit 60.

Ecky-Thump – Member

I was also amazed that they tell ’em to apply the brake through the corner now.

There’s the first one!

Left Foot Braking!
8)

I don’t use my clutch as a hill brake, I use my engine – in situations where otherwise you’d be dumping a lot of energy into the brakes and heating them up a lot (thus not only risking fade, but also generating a lot of wear).

Depends what you mean by clutch wear. You don’t wear the plates with the pedal depressed, but as mentioned several times you do wear the release bearing and I had one of those go in a relatively modern car – I’m sure they do still go in current models.

My car has a hill holder gadget which requires you to keep the car in gear for it to work which is why I never use it (the hill holder, not the handbrake). It actually works very well but if you go into neutral and put the handbrake on then the hill holder doesn’t work so you have to hill start manually which some people seem to struggle with!

How on earth do you use a clutch as a hill brake? Oh, stopped going uphill you mean, like these halfwits who sit at lights rocking backwards and forwards (and invariably then take ages to actually set off when the lights change)?

Going downhill, just select a lower gear and dab the brakes as needed. They even tell you this on road signs.

I deliberately wrote “lift and coast” a F1 term which means just lifting off the throttle. As opposed to engine braking which is where you deliberately use a lower gear to slow down.

I think this is the key post!

I use lift and coast, which more people should do, small modulations of speed can easily be doen with the throttle, but for soem reason some people seem to struggle with this and jab on the brakes all the time.

My car has a hill holder gadget which requires you to keep the car in gear for it to work

I’ve got an auto-hold which activates when the brake pedal is depressed (you need to push it a certain distance, if you gently feather the brakes it doesn’t engage). Could be wrong offhand but I think it works irrespective of whether you’re in gear or not.

There’s an “eco” auto-stop too, that only kicks in when you’re in neutral with the handbrake or auto-hold engaged, the engine starts back up when you select a gear.

Yes, passed my test in late 80s when block shifting down while wearing stonewash denim jeans, was the fashion.

Both my current cars are Auto with electronic H/B and I’ll be damned if I’m going to be switching the H/B on and off all the time. That’s a sure-fire way of generating expensive bills.

So, for those wondering why folk sit on the brakes, there you have it, Auto boxes and electronic handbrakes.

What a fantastic modern age we live in!
😉

While we’re on this subject has anyone else noticed people don’t seem to use their handbrake anymore no matter how long they’re stopped for? I’d say more than half the people on the roads these days just sit there with their foot on the brake which is pretty annoying when you’re sat behind for a few minutes

I made this comment a few days ago and was told it’s because modern cars have hold brakes that keep the car stationary without putting the handbrake on. Although I’m pretty sure that’s not true of the 10 year old Corsa I was sat behind this morning with its brake lights on in stationary traffic.

So, for those wondering why folk sit on the brakes, there you have it, Auto boxes and electronic handbrakes.

Yeah, I’ll stick my auto in neutral but keep my foot on the brake. Disengages the engine/clutch but means I don’t have to touch that pesky handbrake.

Are the folks who can’t operate a handbrake the same ones that struggle with a front mech lever on their bars?

plyphon – Member

Yeah, I’ll stick my auto in neutral but keep my foot on the brake. Disengages the engine/clutch but means I don’t have to touch that pesky handbrake.

That’s exactly what I do.

ears back. He said he teaches people to leave it in gear because it reduces the chances of them hitting the wrong gear and stalling the car in a test but in real life he takes it out of gear.

+1

When I’ve a new learner, I will get them to wait in gear at lights as they have enough to worry about without them missing 1st when the lights go green. As their experience grows, I get them handbrake neutral, it least some students then are saving a bit of my clutch 😉

Brake to slow, gears to go. Timing upto junctions is something I’m strict on with learners I hate them flying up and slamming on as it shows lack of forward planning.

Stay in whichever gear you are in, get what you need. So, for example, slowing down from a 50 mph road to red lights stay in 5th. If the lights change before stopping get 2nd or 3rd depending on the speed, gradient of road etc.

In a normal road car, you really need to dial in at least 2 or 3,000 rpm before you let the clutch out. Anything else is just fannying around.

Brake to slow, gears to go. Timing upto junctions is something I’m strict on with learners I hate them flying up and slamming on as it shows lack of forward planning.

Stay in whichever gear you are in, get what you need. So, for example, slowing down from a 50 mph road to red lights stay in 5th. If the lights change before stopping get 2nd or 3rd depending on the speed, gradient of road etc.

Same as I was taught in 1990.

Automatic FTW.

And I’d say if she can apply makeup, eat a bowl of cereals, read a newspaper, pluck eyebrows, give a manicure, change bra, feed kids, change little Jonnys nappy all at the lights whilst her foot is on the clutch and in 1st gear with/without handbrake on ..

Then she’s just like every other Parent… so she wins.

Engine braking uses less fuel but wears the engine

How can that be the case?

I learnt to drive in 1997 and was taught to slow down using the brakes, whack it into neutral at the junction then gears to drive away.

Unless I’m not expecting it I pretty much engine brake at least part the way to a stop. I don’t notice any increased engine wear – I do notice brakes last a long time, and there’s less stress on me whilst doing it.
When I learnt in 1984 my instructor did teach me to use the brakes to slow, but I prefer to help it slow down by taking my foot off the go pedal in advance, and changing down at least once on the way.

franksinatra – Member

Engine braking uses less fuel but wears the engine

How can that be the case?

[/quote]

In neutral the engine turns the fuel pump iirc, but when rolling in gear the cars momentum is turning the engine and the ecu tells the fuel pump to do nothing.

I’d say more than half the people on the roads these days just sit there with their foot on the brake which is pretty annoying when you’re sat behind for a few minutes

Genuine apology – I only use the handbrake if I know I’m going to be there awhile, so that might be me, never even occurred that brake lights might be annoying. Into neutral for me, maybe I’ll use the handbrake more, but it’s just as easy to hold it on the foot brake.

I think the brakes vs engine braking argument needs to really move away from wear and cost. Brakes are purposely designed to slow a car down. That is their only function. If you are slowing using engine braking, you essentially have 5 or 6 rates of deceleration. This means in most circumstances you will be slowing either too slowly and catching to the car in front, or too quickly and without any brake lights showing. On the brake pedal you have infinite levels of adjustment on how fast/quickly you are slowing, and have orders of magnitude more stopping power. Plus if you are braking lightly and spot a hazard you are already on the pedal and can just press harder.

There is a huge amount to be said for planning ahead so that you don’t have to use the brakes much, and the ‘lift and coast’ talked about above is great for regulating speed over a small amount (cruising basically), but if you are actively slowing it’s brakes all the way.

jimjam – Member

In neutral the engine turns the fuel pump iirc, but when in gear the car is turning the engine and the feul pump is doing nothing.

Brakes to slow down:
Car in neutral/dipped clutch as you drift on the brakes to a controlled stop. Engine revs are at idle!

Engine resistance to slow down:
Engage a lower gear to provide “engine” braking, engine revs climb, more fuel is used!

The carburetor / fuel injection system of your engine does not stop squirting fuel into the cylinders, just because you’ve engaged a lower gear and so increased the number of revolutions your engine turns per minute.

There’s also the entire VW / Audi range that has an auto hold. So you don’t put the handbrake on and the brake lights stay on even though the car’s out of gear and the engines switched its self off.

I don’t there’s a single person who doesn’t let up on the accelerator on the way to a stop and I was certainly never taught to coast (ie can in neutral). I think I was told to changes down once or twice, (sort of 6-4-2) on the way, but that was more to keep the car drivable if I changes my mind about what I was doing next.
So, along with all others, brakes to slow (with a little bit of engine braking) and gears to go.
When stopped. I take it out of gear but I was taught (about 1995) to keep it in gear if at the front of the queue and out of gear if further back. Handbrake on either way.