‘Negligible risk’ and ‘irrational fear’ are two excellent examples of the mental disconnect afflicting many folk like Pondo. Yey, let’s ignore the ever growing shitstorm cos it doesn’t exist.

I always like to get my lectures on mental disconnect and race relations from brietbart reading trump fans. IF you cannot trust their moral compass about the ensuing shitstorm – is a it a threat to our very way of life- then whose can you trust. Are you still saying black lives matter is racist?

PS missed you when the white dude shot all those fok for some reason that thread passed you buy unlike any thread with a Muslim angle- though to be fair you did praise nigel for attacking the “jewsih lobby” so you are at least reaching out with your bigotry.

‘Negligible risk’ and ‘irrational fear’ are two excellent examples of the mental disconnect afflicting many folk like Pondo. Yey, let’s ignore the ever growing shitstorm cos it doesn’t exist.

Shall we have a look at how big the shitstorm is? Get me some figures, how many people in America have been killed by guns this year, and how many have been killed people claiming to be acting on behalf of an Islamic terrorist organisation? You get me the figures then tell me what’s rational to fear, heaven knows I wouldn’t want you to think I was using inaccurate sources or #fakenewsing it up or anything.

especially given the negligable risk terrorism poses to us in our ivory towers in the west.

My view is without the extensive anti-terorrism efforts of the police and intelligence services there would be a very significant increase in actual attacks with comensurate increase in the dead and injured. This is not to mention the scenario where “we” took action against IS in Iraq and Syria in particular.

Also fwiw I do not agree with the view that we face a neglible risk from terrorism (be that Islamic Jihadist today or Irish Catholic in the past)

pondo I could post up quite a long list of Jihadist terrorist attacks in Europe and/or targetting Europeans in the past 5 years. As for the IS their whole strategy is based upon eliminating terrorst attacks on their own soilmas their number 1 priority. Vast majority of US gun deaths are suicides or inter gang/criminal violence. I am sure if you made a list of terrorist related deaths in US including 9-11 Al-Q) and Oklahoma/Church (ie right wing extremist) it would be similar (larger) than total school shootings for example.

Don’t just speculate, do the math. And we’re not just looking at school shootings, BTW – my argument relates to US gun deaths vs US deaths from terrorism. Go on – you tell me.

Edit – d’you know what, I’ll even let you take out suicides.

its a range of contributory factors. I’m capable of seeing that.

well, there are already laws in place to stop incitement of violence, religious and race hatred and so on; and mosques, churches, and gurdwaras, synagogues and everything else is covered, so we don’t need 3.

The internet is vastly hugely massively used by machine to machine, and that is only going to get biggerer and biggerer. There’s is no practical method you could apply (without it being a massive intrusion on everyone) to identify just humans, and nor would you need, or want to. Islamist propoganda is teeny by any measurable method. What’s required is education, not restriction or prohibition.

So that’s 5 taken care of.

There are no simple methods of getting rid of any Terrorism, it takes empathy, and a willingness to compromise, and politicians brave enough to bring people around to that POV when violence and rhetoric are vastly more popular and easy.

All terrorism that there has ever been is finally resolved by talking, and every time we go through this ridiculous dance of politicians wanting to be seen to be strong. Pointless and expensive wars that achieve nothing other than a steady supply of bodybags and atrocities, and eventually state-mate and talks…This will be no different, the only thing that ever changes is how long it takes to realise it.

pondo I could post up quite a long list of Jihadist terrorist attacks in Europe and/or targetting Europeans in the past 5 years.

As said please do, I listed the UK and US deaths due to terrorism in a earlier post. Add the numbers UK, list the birth place and place of residence of the people involved and the numbers. It will blow your mind.

Look let’s not be all pc liberal about it. There’s a problem in the western world and there is a very high chance the name of involved will be Muhammad. Come at me.

30,000 jihadis in the UK, only the top 10% are monitored 24/7 at a cost of £9 billion pa, none of the most recent attacks were carried out by those 10% and how many impending attacks on the UK have been thwarted? Those deniers insisting the sky ain’t blue are frankly delusional.

list the birth place and place of residence of the people involved

Islamic Jihadi terrorists can have a passport from many countries the UK included.

Terrorism is THE major domestic security threat we face in the UK and is a very significant risk abroad for UK citizens too. That’s why Tourism numbers to Egypt and Tunisia have collapsed

@pondo Gang violence, criminals shooting each other, suicides etc …. a very significant number of Americans understand they dominate the shooting fatalities. You (and Mike) are going to convince precisely no one with the facetious “numbers” argument.

Mike there was a big BBC focus piece this week on gun and knife crime in the UK. I don’t know many people who think that’s a more serious problem than Islamic Jihadi terrorists. Certainly not me.

So no-one’s prepared to post numbers, then. Shall I find some for you?

Mike there was a big BBC focus piece this week on gun and knife crime in the UK. I don’t know many people who think that’s a more serious problem than Islamic Jihadi terrorists. Certainly not me.

So you choose to live in fear of something that is very unlikely to happen?

Had a talk yesterday from an air ambulance doctor, amazing stuff, he’d been at London bridge and Westminster attacks.

Didnt discuss details of that much, more focused on reducing deaths from knife crime (shockingly poor survival rate) and cyclists with crushed pelvis under back of lorries.
Trying out new techniques for improving survival- a neck clamp for knife wounds and stents for keeping hearts going if run over (both of which could’ve been applicable to those terrorist attacks.)

Unfortunately for you lot he was asian, possibly muslim, so mostly to be feared or something, whatever your point actually is? ( Tho not called Mohammed)

kimbers – Member

Had a talk yesterday from an air ambulance doctor, amazing stuff, he’d been at London bridge and Westminster attacks.

Wow that’s incredible. What are the chances that you’d even meet someone who was involved in two terror attacks. I mean, the chances of being involved in one is so astonishingly small that you could probably live your life and never meet anyone ever affected by terrorism. Right?

Honestly, you mock the Americans for their “thoughts and prayers” approach to gun violence and then you do the exact same thing with “it’s statistically so unlikely…” every time there’s an islamist terror attack. Both are equally worthless arguments that involve putting your head in the sand and refusing to discuss the issue.

Let’s discuss it, then – Farage was on the radio after the NY attack saying it’s the duty of the president to protect the nation. What would reduce deaths more, imposing UK-style gun laws or banning muslims from entering the country? Discuss.

Wow that’s incredible. What are the chances that you’d even meet someone who was involved in two terror attacks. I mean, the chances of being involved in one is so astonishingly small that you could probably live your life and never meet anyone ever affected by terrorism. Right?

Unless it’s your job to be a first responder at terrorism attacks??

No one is denying that there hasn’t been a surge of islamic terrorism attacks ever since we invaded Iraq and it’s certainly been fueled by the rise and fall of IS in Syria, Iraq, Libya. Not to mention disenfranchisement seen amongst the poorest ever since the banking crisis that we’ve never recovered from.

Hating on Islam isnt going to fix it and so far that’s about all this thread has mustered, I’m all for better monitoring of suspected terrorists, of course thats been made harder by austerity slashing police effectiveness, just as May was warned.

I cycle through London every day, it’s not nutters with knives that worry me, it’s trucks turning left, imho that’s a healthy fear to have as opposed to be being cowed by terrorists!

pondo – Member

Let’s discuss it, then – Farage, the president, gun laws, banning muslims

Amazing. Such a subtle slight of hand I almost didn’t notice it 🙄

Hating on Islam isnt going to fix it and so far that’s about all this thread has mustered,

Please point out the hatred? Unless you’re confusing criticism with hatred? Does criticism = hatred? Are we not allowed to be critical of beliefs or belief systems? Or is that now racist since there’s no such thing as race there’s only cultural diversity so to be critical of the belief system of a group of people who celebrate a certain culture is to be xenophobic and therefor racist? Sound about right?

This unswerving defense of an ideology that obviously has problems is IMO just as bad (and unhelpful) as a far right standpoint.

Surely your capable of taking something other than a binary position?

TBH I’m coming to the conclusion that the only thing that will resolve this is a few generations to die off in time and younger people who wont give a **** about Allah or what your Gran did in the war to come to power.

Can be as critical of Islam as any other religion as you like, infact please do, claiming that something like trump’s Muslim ban or even his extreme vetting on entry of someone like this seems not to work.
He appears to have become radicalised after entering the states, I wonder what could’ve helped convince a guy who’d lived and worked peacefully in the US for the last 6 years that America was the enemy of Islam??

oh look , lets bring trump into it. any excuse

[Quote]Amazing. Such a subtle slight of hand I almost didn’t notice it [/quote]
Frame it however you want, then.

This unswerving defense of an ideology that obviously has problems is IMO just as bad (and unhelpful) as a far right standpoint.

Edit – D’you know what, can’t be arsed. You crack on with your Daily Heilism, and much good may it do you.

rmacattack – Member
oh look , lets bring trump into it. any excuse

Erm yeah, lets bring Trump into a debate about an Islamic Terror attack in America ?

but it was happening under bush and barack as well.

Well whoever said that it was not looks pretty foolish now – who was it ?

This unswerving defense of an ideology that obviously has problems is IMO just as bad (and unhelpful) as a far right standpoint.
Surely your capable of taking something other than a binary position?

OH the irony no one here is defending ISIS or radical islam or terrorism.
And moaning at others for binary positions when you just did a binary straw man is fantastically ironic , not helpful and hardy the act of the wise

30,000 jihadis in the UK,

Potential jihadhis and its 23,000 as I know you care about facts – Oh what about the right wing folk on trial currently for trying to murder an MP – any comment on the real threat these folk and their brethren pose to us all or do you want to deny the sky is blue?

We mainly agree its a problem some think demonising them all wont hep – its possibly because we know what happened in the troubles when we tried this approach rather than because we dont think its a problem

Some think the way to beat extremism is with state sanctioned extremism – those folk have learnt nothing from history ,have very very questionable motives and dont have great insights into complex issues

Here’s a microcosm of how this debate goes everytime one of those harmless islamists commits one of those statistically irrelevant mass murders.

jimjam – Member

Both are equally worthless arguments that involve putting your head in the sand and refusing to discuss the issue.

pondo – Member

Let’s discuss it, then – Farage, Trump, gun laws, banning muslims

pondo – Member

Frame it however you want, then.

pondo – Member

This unswerving defense of an ideology that obviously has problems is IMO just as bad (and unhelpful) as a far right standpoint.

Edit – D’you know what, can’t be arsed. You crack on with your Daily Heilism, and much good may it do you. [/quote]

Everyone’s a nazi if they try discuss islam.

junkyark

30,000 jihadis in the UK,

Potential jihadhis and its 23,000[/quote]

Is that all? Nothing to worry about there then. I mean the IRA had 300 – 450 members in their active service units during the 80s and it’s not like they got up to much.

So jambalaya won’t lower himself to evidence then, normal service resumed. It’s a shame when the facts don’t match your ideology.

mikewsmith – Member

So jambalaya won’t lower himself to evidence then,

What’s the point in evidence when it’s statically irrelevant?

Well that is one way of looking at it… Perhaps if you use evidence it’s hard to back up your position on being racist and an islamaphobe while proposing laws that would make zero difference.

Everyone’s a nazi if they try discuss islam.

Not particularly, but if you think Islam is the key (or even A key) threat to people in the states, then you are misguided, pure and simple. I’ve asked if you want to discuss it, do please explain why islam is a bigger threat to the US than their own gun laws. Or do I have the wrong end of the stick?

Or do I have the wrong end of the stick?

History shows (evidence) that people trying to prove something that has no basis in facts or evidence won’t bring evidence into the argument. It’s self defeating.

pondo – Member

Not particularly, but if you think Islam is the key (or even A key) threat to people in the states, then you are misguided, pure and simple. I’ve asked if you want to discuss it, do please explain why islam is a bigger threat to the US than their own gun laws. Or do I have the wrong end of the stick?

Just remember for a second that Islamists flew jet liners into buildings killing 3000 people and injuring 6000 more. That has sent us all into the spiral which we are in today. Yes, we can play the blame game about foreign policy and western imperialism but you can go back 1000 years doing that and accomplish nothing. The point is that one act of terrorism can shift world politics and the reality of daily life for almost everyone on the planet.

Terrorism can do that because the response to terrorism isn’t directly and logically proportional to the amount of death and destruction caused by a terrorist act. See also political assassinations.

Premeditated murder carries stiffer sentences than manslaughter. If someone straps a bomb to himself and goes to a concert and blows up himself and 22 young women and girls in act of religious piety and holiness, and a bus driver has a stroke at the wheel and plunges himself and 22 young girls off a cliff they are not equally evil acts.

The bus driver might have been a good person and he never intended to hurt or injure one person in his life. The terrorist is not. There isn’t a secret cabal of bus drivers plotting to give themselves strokes at inopportune moments – but there are secret groups of people plotting to cause the maximum amount of suffering, murder and death to men women and children because they live free, secular, liberal lives.

Intentions matter. That is part of our culture. That’s also why all acts of violence aren’t terrorism. Fred West wasn’t a terrorist. Andrei Chikatilo wasn’t a terrorist.

You have to acknowledge these facts, not try to obfuscate them.

Was anyone trying to ignore the IRA when they were bombing Britain? Were people sitting on buses or at work discussing how it was a complete statistical impossibility that you’d die in an IRA bomb and therefore it’s not really even worth worrying about?

I spent most of my childhood and adult life in Northern Ireland never once did I hear anything remotely like this. This numerical pragmatism toward terrorism only seems to work with one form of terror.

@pondo Gang violence, criminals shooting each other, suicides etc …. a very significant number of Americans understand they dominate the shooting fatalities. You (and Mike) are going to convince precisely no one with the facetious “numbers” argument.

Mike there was a big BBC focus piece this week on gun and knife crime in the UK. I don’t know many people who think that’s a more serious problem than Islamic Jihadi terrorists. Certainly not me.

Knife crime is probably not a problem in the yacht-owning suburbs, but in the city it is certainly a bigger problem than bearded nutters. But don’t let the facts start getting in your way.

the response to terrorism isn’t directly and logically proportional to the amount of death and destruction caused by a terrorist act.

Interesting. Using your reference of 9/11, what instead (IYO) would have been the ‘logically proportional’ response to that act of terrorism/those terrorists?

Malvern Rider – Member

the response to terrorism isn’t directly and logically proportional to the amount of death and destruction caused by a terrorist act.

Interesting. Using your reference of 9/11, what instead (IYO) would have been the ‘logically proportional’ response to that act of terrorism/those terrorists? [/quote]

Well that’s a real captain hindsight question but obviously going to war in Afghanistan was a bad move, launching another war in Iraq under false pretenses was also a bad idea. Probably some kind of targeted assassinations of key figures in Al Quaeda and the Saudi royal family, along with measures to undermine or counterfund SA’s Wahhabi propaganda campaigns in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Africa…..

The problem is that America was attacked in a public and painful way and that required action to appear that justice/vengeance was done. No government could tolerate that being done to them without being seen to act in kind.

Regardless of what I say they should have done, it’s obvious they over reacted.