I'm not going to get into the whole Mac v. Windows thing, but , other than student/teacher discounts, there are really good deals to be had if you check out the refurb section of the on-line Apple store. The items come with the same warranty but BIG discounts. Most of the time what they sell as refurbs are just customer returns that haven't had anything even wrong with them – just the buyer changing their mind after opening the box.

Actually I will make a couple of points on the Mac V. "PC" debate.

– If you actually compare what hardware you get for your money, not just the bare specs, Macs are very often not that far behind, or even ahead in terms of value versus PS's. For instance the quality of screen you get with an iMac would cost big bucks elsewhere.
– The whole "Macs are for people who can't use real computers" is such a bunch of crap. Among people I know it is the hardcore geeks who have been switching to Macs over the last few years. OS X put an elegant interface over it but underneath its UNIX so the proper geeks can get as hacky as they like. When you've had your fun with OS X you can of course also run Windows or Linux as well, even at the same time if you want.

Bought an imac with a 27 inch screen and quad core processor – best thing with sliced bread and the operating system is easier to use than windows. Don't but any word processing software download neo its almost as good as word – without the bells and whistles and cost.

I don't get this 'Macs just work' stuff. I've been using PC's for years and they 'just work' as well. I've used a number of desktops and laptops with Vista for many man-years and not had a single crash. That's running office apps, games, CAD, FEA, CFD, Labview, etc. What are people doing to get all these crashes?

rich – it's because PCs are open and as such people can install pretty much anything they want – this is usually the cause of the problem – people installing all manner of crap which you just can't really do with Macs. A bit like someone running Shimano shifters with a SRAM mech and finding that it doesn't work very well.

Get a Windows 7 PC, install Open office or MS office, a decent free AV and leave it at that (since that covers what the vast majority of people need) and you'll have no issues at all. People bleating on about Windows crashing all the time, etc because they had previous (to W7) bad experiences are pretty stupid – a bit like people saying don't get a full suspension bike because they're all heavy, flexy, bouncy and break because that's how many full sussers used to be 🙄

Still using a Dell Inspiron I bought in December 2005.

I have a balanced opinion, I dislike Windows because its crap (don't really need to expand on that as it's evident to anyone more advanced than an amoeba) and dislike OSX as it comes on overpriced hardware from a company with an attitude problem.

So, to answer the OP, fix the old PC and install Ubuntu. It'll be a learning experience but you'll end up in a better place.

clubber – Member

… a decent free AV and leave it at that

And right there is the big difference.

Amoeba here would like to know why Windows is crap.

What, you have to run an AV? So what? You install it and leave it. Hardly something to worry about.

I've been using Macs and PCs for 20 years in my business.

I have never had a Mac fail. If I could get all the time lost on PC problems I'd have another year of my life to play with.

ok this is getting silly now,

I'm buying a Mac because I've given up with windows,not because i want a Mac,

My current defunkt PC does have a very good anti virus in NOD32 but not having to spend another £40.0 a yr on it is a positive where i come from,

I've built my own pc's before, it was very stable and i learned a lot doing it + i found it fun, (but now i can't be arsed)

Bill Gates makes my piss boil as does Steve Jobs, i want to smash their collective faces in, Steve, using my iphone 3G running the new 4th generation software, although with his current health status it would be as much fun as using the aforementioned, Bill i would like to drop a crate of returned vista disk's on him from the back of the microsoft company jet, just for being a ****, being slighly ginger and producing sh1t that constantly needs tweeking,

I just want something that works all the time when it's asked,and doesn't need me sitting at it for 40 mins downloading and adding patches
jsut to get ot going, Mac wins.

end of thread. thankyou and goodnight.

Mr Amoeba-

Windows is crap because (in no particular order)-

It costs money when better OS's are free
It needs more expensive hardware because it is bloated and resource intensive
It needs antivirus because it is a market leader and has security issues
It has a poorly designed update system
Microsofts embrace, extend, extinguish policy has caused stagnation in the IT industry for years (stated simply, why compete when your monopoly has given you the cash reserves to buy and close competitors)
Microsoft controls the hardware market so that machines with competitors OS's can't compete
The closed nature of the OS means severe problems require a complete reinstallation, were most users will lose data unless backed up. So those who only know Windows are more prone to losing their data. This is partly cause by Windows method of installation surrounding disk partitioning and formating.
A lot of the bloat and slowness of Windows is due to processes that have no benefit to the end user – such as WGA and DRM.
MS will push updates that are more about enhancing their market position than improving or securing your system.
Microsoft produce propriety software.
Windows GUI is inferior to OSX and linux.
Microsoft use patents in a manner only made possible by the £'s in their coffers.

Basically, you are being punted an inferior OS at an unrealistically inflated price, and the IT industry can't evolve to a better OS because they are abusing their monopoly. The consumer and industry suffers.

So basically because you're a geek 🙂

I bought a macbook for the house as a bit of an impulse and have just recently had a new acer laptop with windows 7 and I would say the gap on functionality etc has closed greatly.
Cannot get too excited with the macbook tbh- perhaps it's my it ineptitude?

people installing all manner of crap which you just can't really do with Mac

Not that that can't, the crap software just doesn't exist. A definite good point.

The "Macs don't need AV" argument is a load of mince, reckon people are going to get a bit of a fright soon. Saying that, traditional style AV is near-useless at keeping up with newer gen malware.

Geek is okay, nerd is bad. I can live with that. 🙂

Waderider,
Thanks for that, but as just a user Windows works. Like I said, I've used Windows for years and not had any problems. You may have issues with how it works, but that isn't a problem for most users.
I don't agree that the Windows GUI is inferior to Linux, and anyway, that's just your view.

enfht:
What you need is an iPC

You are some badly written software and I claim my £5.

Here we go 😆 I'm very anti-mac because I can't see any real advantages over Windows 7.

I am running both Snow Leopard and Windows 7 on exactly the same hardware.. the "mac" looks nicer and has Final Cut Studio/Aperture but that's about it. I find the mac side to be slower in the sense that it wastes time looking pretty, doing bouncing icons, animations etc whilst windows just gets on with it and still looks good. I'm very much a "power user" – I use it for rendering 3D stuff at HD resolutions, video editing, photoshop, audio recording etc. The PC does this with no hitches and at a fraction of the cost of a mac.

tbh if you're having problems with Windows 7 you're doing something wrong. I've not had a blue screen yet since October. My friends iMac has had the bsod equivalent about 3-4 times and he's only had it since xmas. All when he was trying to do the same things my PC breezes through, actually 😆

Oh and the default mac colour calibration is awful – oversaturated and too contrasty. Makes stuff look "nice" in the show room though but it isn't accurate.

Finally, if you're getting viruses all the time, get better AV or stop looking at dodgy porn sites 😆 I've not had a virus for years.

Macs are very often not that far behind, or even ahead in terms of value versus PS's.

They are. My pc is still better specced than most macs and cost about £650 a few years ago. I think the equivalent spec mac is at least £1200, and may still have a worse graphics card.

IMO, macs are for people who have the money and care more about style than substance, whilst windows is for people who just want to get stuff done efficiently.

-posting from my 4 year old dell laptop with xp, still going strong-

Well that is the PC side of things….CountZero to the thread please for the Apple response.

firstly, I don't get any viruses as i use use NOD32,

secondly, you can't stop me looking at porn, 😀
although the wife can.

Oh and the default mac colour calibration is awful – oversaturated and too contrasty. Makes stuff look "nice" in the show room though but it isn't accurate.

anyone serious about working with colour will calibrate using hardware (a puck like eye-1/colour munki/spyder3) so the default colour calibration is not even relevant. it would be like buying a shock or pair of forks and not touching any of the rebound adjusters and not adding any air.
a pc's default isn't "accurate" either.

IMO, macs are for people who have the money and care more about style than substance, whilst windows is for people who just want to get stuff done efficiently.

or for photographers who use high end capture software where the windows version is an afterthought and lags behind on development, and who's digital backs are firewire only (and that's powered firewire so a macbook is the obvious choice).

and while we are on the subject of colour if you want to run 2 monitors and have a separate hardware calibrated profile for each monitor which is essential in a colour managed workflow then a mac will do this without issue. even my old non-pro macbook would run a HD eizo at native resolution with it's own profile. evidently it's a mare on a p.c involving separate software, renaming profiles to not confuse the system, reconfiguring the video card and not all calibration software can be run with both monitors connected so you have to calibrate individually.
with a mac it just works.
as you say it's all about getting stuff done efficiently.

Well, on the one hand we have an 8 year old Dell desktop running XP that still functions (after a fashion), although it takes for ever to boot up.

Tried installing Linux on it – lost the will to live after an evening faffing about trying to find the correct drivers for the wireless network card. Eventually got it running, but to be honest, I can't see the benefit in terms of performance for the computer.

Use a Macbook Pro for day to day computing, have an iMac with a second screen for website design and Apeture photo stuff, we also use a Mac Mini hooked to the telly for recording and processing films, tv etc. My wife, who is a senior IT bod for a finance multi-national, used to slag my Applephilia, until she started using my old Powerbook – now she's a convert and I have a replacement for the 8year old, but still working Powerbook sitting hidden in a cupboard for her birthday tomorrow. We also have an old Blue G3 sat in the loft that still works, but I don't have a use for it since it was replaced by a more efficient NAS a year or so ago.

All the mac stuff just rolls along, doing the job it's allocated around the house with a minimum of fuss. Now admittedly, I haven't used Vista or Win 7, but I used to spend hours of my life wasting time fiddling with the innards of PCs, whereas the only time I've had to open up any of the Macs is to upgrade the memory on them.

Interestingly, my wife can get PCs to deliver a reasonable level of reliability in terms of operating systems, largely by replicating the Apple model – they use a standardised laptop/desktop combo across their global operation, and have a pretested software loadset which no one is allowed to alter without thorough testing and a strict approvals process.

Of course the other great thing about owning a Mac is going to the Apple shop – the only other place I get welcomed like that is church (and yes, there are other similarities!). Compare that to your local PC World…

Waderider – Hmmm, a fair amount of tosh in that response, although, as you say you have a balanced opinion. Sadly, a lot of what you wrote is just that – opinion.

It needs antivirus because it is a market leader and has security issues

Er, not quite. All OSes need an anti virus if you have any concern about security. Windows is the most high profile because it is probably the most widely used OS and therefore the most profitable to attack. The so called super secure OSX that didn't need anti virus suddenly (a couple of years ago) decided that AV was a good and necessary thing. The Windows OS has got steadily more secure with Windows 7 being pretty good out of the box compared to most others.

It has a poorly designed update system

? Eh? Compared to what?

Microsoft controls the hardware market so that machines with competitors OS's can't compete

I have no idea where you plumbed this nugget from but it clearly isn't this world. MS has no control of the hardware market. I think you are confusing MS with Apple here regarding the hardware that the OS will run on.

The closed nature of the OS means severe problems require a complete reinstallation, were most users will lose data unless backed up. So those who only know Windows are more prone to losing their data. This is partly cause by Windows method of installation surrounding disk partitioning and formating.

What do you mean by "closed nature of the OS"? It's actually pretty open in as much as there are published APIs for access and use. Sure, the source code for the OS is not available at large to the public but it is available to view for those that have a requirement to do so and under license. Giving away your open source preference here.

MS will push updates that are more about enhancing their market position than improving or securing your system.

Spectacular tosh. Are you really neutral or just an anti MS bigot?

Microsoft produce propriety software

Well of course they do, as does pretty much every other commercial software organisation, including Apple. Why is that so bad, unless of course, you are a died in the wool, open source evangelist?

Microsoft use patents in a manner only made possible by the £'s in their coffers

Not sure what your point is caller, but it makes no sense at all.

Your use of the term amoeba is a little uncalled for given that your responses are hardly intellectually or factually accurate. Perhaps it is you that is more amoebic and blinkered having concocted a number of half / un truths to support your personal prejudices and perferences. Not very big nor very clever.

At the end of the day there is a significant difference between Apple and Windows in what they have to cover. Windows is designed and sold as an OS that can run on a wide range of hardware. And is installed and run on a wide range of hardware. Apple design an OS for a very tight and closed set of hardware. Given the 2 approaches Windows does a pretty spectaular job most of the time. I would agree that Vista was an abortion of a product that did not serve MS very well at all but XP was pretty good and Windows 7 similarly is a very robust and performant OS.

MrSmith, fair enough 🙂 I've not tried to do that sort of stuff yet (mainly because I can't afford to) but for me I've found I can get away with my non-hardware calibrated monitor – any colour correction I do seems to translate well to all screens I've tested it on. Not ideal obviously but it works 🙂

As for capture software, can't you just use Lightroom? Seems the same as Aperture to me..

not with phase/leaf/hassleblad backs.
prefer to use captureOne with canons as i have no need for a database type/metadata writing workflow that lightroom excels at

To balance the "only noobs should use mac" argument. 20 years in IT here, used everything from PDP to latest 27" iMac including OS/2, every variant of Windows, VMS, the lot. the iMac 27" is what I've always wanted, quiet, powerful, reliable, well supported and with a cli that talks a sensible language instead of all of that "dir" drivel. I run dual screens with parallels and Windows 7 on one and OSX in the other. **** hate it when I have to switch to the Windows 7 pane. Having actually read the OP I just want to say "good decision mate"

Not sure if this has been brought up but according to macrumors.com there are new imacs coming soon. Maybe hold off for now.

Had a Powerbook G4 for 7 years with no mechanical issues whatsoever (until i baptised it in a bottle of wine) and an iMac G4 for 10 years with no problems either. Both of these were built in what i consider the golden age of Apple so it may be slightly worse nowadays with all their concentration on the iPhone (bah).

Since I got rid of those computers for being hugely out of date I've been using a 2 year old 20" Alu iMac with yet again, no issues. I've even just bought a 24" as well!

In short, its a no brainer for me. I've never encountered someone who wonders if Windows would be better, but lots of people who contemplate the move to OSX, that says something IMO.

My GF's a Mac, I'm a PC.

About reliability – there isn't much between a decent PC build and an iMac IMO. I think Macs have better OS/Hardware integration which probably aids stability.

The iMac design, including its big bright screen, is outstanding. I like the design of the OS – good ergonomics, and it's Berkley Unix under the hood. Its noticeably small memory footprint means that the standard 2Gb goes a long way compared with Windows.

I don't like the mouse and I really dislike Finder. Some of the Adobe software seems like overpriced cack, whereas the Microsoft software is just cack. The equivalent apple apps seem much better by comparison IMO.

My next PC will most likely be an iMac or macbook 😉

"Adobe software = overpriced cack" Amen brother – true whatever platform you're using!

Realised I hadn't been very clear about my PC comments – my experience of running Dell computers is that they're generally very reliable hardware. We used them widely in my last place of work, and the hardware rarely caused problems. The problems with Windows software were pretty constant – Win 7 may well be much more stable than any of its predecessors, but I've long since been lost to MS as a customer.

The main reason I became a 'switcher', and wouldn't contemplate a return is the ease of doing stuff on the Mac. I entered the world of computing back in the AT days, and remember writing batch files to get my 30Mb hard drive to load on the DOS operating system. Since then I've built my own computers, wrestled with hardware configs etc. I used to mock Macs and their users because they weren't 'real' computers, that you could fiddle about with.

The somewhere along the line I just got bored of always spending more time tinkering with my computer to keep it going than I did doing anything creative with it. Bought myself a 12" Powerbook and haven't looked back since.

I'd also be happy to admit that the design of Apple products is as important to me as their performance – I've never seen a Windows laptop that matches the clean simple elegance of my MacBook Pro, and the wife's new unibody version is a thing of rare beauty. Windows machines always seem to be overdone, even when they're obviously trying to mimic the Apple aesthetic. People seem to see this as evidence of the flawed nature of Apple products, but I don't see this as a very coherent argument – everything else in my home has to combine the appropriate level of functionality with the right aesthetics, so why wouldn't my computer fit that pattern as well. If I have to pay a bit extra to achieve that combination, then I don't have a problem with that.

You're not wrong, no windows laptops have the nice clean aesthetic of a Mac. Sony Vaio are close but not quite there – bit chunky/clunky looking at the back. And my pc case is ugly as sin – keeps it very cool though! If I got a macbook/iMac I could just see myself spending all my time on the W7 partition I'd put on 😆

Adobe software = overpriced cack

really? if it's "cack" why are there no decent alternatives.

and spending £1200 for 5/6 pieces of software that enable you to earn 10, 20+ times this a year is hardly overpriced.

The only thing Adobe are crap at (for what I use their products for) is video. Might change with CS5 though, seems like its had a serious re-jig and a better playback engine.

We had about 6 imacs in my old office and had to send most back for major power supply or hard drive faults at least once a year. The desktops seemed to fare better, but not amazing either. If you're using CAD, I think only Vectorworks & Archicad are directly compatible with the MAC OS.

why is this in the bike forum??

and girls, grow up its two sorts of computer operating system…nothing to get that worked up about…

Bikingcatastrophe

All OSes need an anti virus if you have any concern about security

Linux does not need Antivirus as there are no viruses in "The Wild" that can harm it, it may be possible to write one but it would be very very hard to do so due to how the OS is constructed, and would most likely need the user to approve its installation using their superuser password. MS products are just full of holes, why do you think their is a multi billion dollar industry out their just to provide security for an OS that should really have its own built in from the Kernel up.

The only antivirus available for Linux is one that scans for Virus that could be a threat to a Windows machine if you shared a file with one, how secure is that!

It has a poorly designed update system
? Eh? Compared to what?

Most Linux OSes have a unified update system that provides all the updates for every piece of installed software in one place, MS does not, you can even roll back updates in Linux if you encounter problems.

Had mine since January and it's transformed the way I work and the enjoyment I get from actually doing my job. Can't speak for techie type work because I'm not into IT one bit. Buy from an apple store and stump up for applecare and you're covered anyway, even if things do go wrong.

I still install Trend AV on all our RHEL servers. Is that the 'only one' you refer too?

Better safe than sorry eh? I can spare the odd cpu cycle.

well i did purchase an iMac and well, it's bloody brilliant, love it to bits already, everything about it is so much better than my pc, the display is simply stunning, i was watching the follow me trailers in HD and it was mind blowing,

as for the magic mouse and paper thin keyboard 😀

it has taken quite a bit of getting used to after using pc's everyday for around the last 16 yrs (i have four at work, two in my office and two pc machine tools using mitsubishi software on windows 2000, still struggle a little after the first week but youtube is only a click away

even mrs skiboy is staggered 😛

i have just started making my third garageband techno/electronic/dance track, amazing bit of free software,

thanks for all the opinions and advice, it was well balanced and really helpful