Delamere riders/Night ride gang/locals….

I have a second meeting with the FC today to discuss the creation of 'proper' sustainable trails in the forest. We (Delamere Riders Club) were approached by the FC to assist and advise on the trail building in the forest. As a show of faith by them they have started work alongside us on rebuilding the dilapidated 4X track (not much interest to most on here) with more dirt and use of a JCB.

This is part of a plan they have for MTBing in the forest which up until this point has been somewhat confusing due to no-one at the FC taking responsibility for it. They now have enthusiastic memebers of staff there, one of whom has worked at CyB and Glentress.

The first meeting saw 6 members of DRC meeting with 4 of the Recreation Rangers and the owners of Tracs UK, the bike hire and coaching company based in the forest, to discuss the plans. The meeting today is to set up DRC as a proper club with chairman etc with input from the FC so that the club itself can apply for funding to help trail building and maintenance.

I have lived near and ridden the forest for about 25 years and come from a former XC then DH background and at 37 am now representing the XC trails side of things as we have enough younger lads for the jumps and drops dept. Locals all know there are great singletrack trails hidden in the forest but the problem with them is that they turn to mush for 5 months of the year or become overgrown in summer. Also, you can tell by the comments on here that people hear about the forest, drive for an hour and are sadly disappointed when they just find waymarked fire roads. It is this that i want to address – not talking about stoning up the whole forest as it cant be done with the geology of the place. What i would like is anyone with an interest in the XC trails to come up with suggestions on routes and features that need work. The hope is that a race can be staged at Delamere in the future as it has ample parking and is in a good location in the Northwest.

You can mail me at tony_kitson AT hot mail dot com or go to http://www.delamereriders.co.uk and add yourself in to see what the score is. The FC are quite active on the site and we need a few more old boys n girls to get these XC trails up and running.

Thanks

Tony

One of the problems with Delamere is its relatively flat, but is easily accesable from most areas,there needs to be better signage,to the trails and where to ride in a decent loop.

Tracs do an excellent job in geting the kids into the forest,and guiding.At least with the FC, Delamere riders and Tracs, all on board things should improve.

Didnt the Delemere bike club and FC work together a few years ago to build trails then the FC overnight demolished them all?

Well, all the North Shore that was built at one time went anyway.

It would be good to have a waymarked XC loop for people who have come there from afar and don't have time to explore, but for me part of the appeal of the place is a lot of the trails being natural and having to find new trails by seeing where that gap in the trees leads to… Wouldn't want the existence of a waymarked route to provide an excuse for people to complain about us riding all the rest. Agree it gets pretty gloopy in parts during the winter though!

project – yep, its relatively flat but the fun is had in the singletrack and the short steep sections. The trail will make use of the available hills. Id say it has comparable elevation in places to the likes of Cannock.

Moomin – there was a some ahem… North Shore built. It was taken out by the FC yes but it was hardly a loss to the trails. The only trail that was originally built with the agreement of the FC is the 4x which although well worn out has never been demolished and Old Pale DH which was closed due to H&S issues – and lack of use – and complaints because it exited onto a picnic area…. The problem with Delamere that you dont get at a lot of other places is that 12 yr olds can get the train there, cant ride something so alter and wreck the trails that have been built. Where people have built dodgy drops across paths and with sticks poking out of them, these will be demolished by the FC.

al_f – i hear you. I personally could keep riding the forest as my local loop for another 20 years and know trails in there that i havent seen another rider on let alone anyone else getting in the way. But there are massive areas with decent elevation that NEW trails can be cut into. This is the ideal we would hope for. The FC understand that bikers are all over the place, and if we are away in the trees then thats a good thing, away from horses/walkers etc…. shame the same walkers will prob see new trails as a footpath!

New trails = good. 🙂 I'll dig the OS map/an online version out and send you a few ideas for areas that I've noticed that could do with a bit of work/could be incorporated into a loop, you'll probably know them all already though!

Cool- Ill keep an eye out for this…

Ive just moved to Northwich and so this is on my doorstep 😀

So we are talking about new purpose built sections of trail then are we, not putting signage up around the best bits of the natural stuff. If the latter is the case, then the problems wiht them getting gloopy in the winter will just be worse won't they as the same trails see increased use?

Not the latter. Some of those trails are some of the best bits and worth keeping as they are for the few months of the year that they are dry ish.

Meeting went well, plenty of things afoot and FC fully onboard. 🙂

Good news, some new trails in previously inaccessible areas would be great and presumably they'll be able to stand up to the weather a bit more thus making winter riding somewhat less of a gloopfest. Any chance of a trail up and down pale heights?

bloomin heck I used to ride delamere and primrose wood in the 80's. There was always some interesting little tracks to find. Let's hope that even with a lack of any proper hilly bits it can be turned into fast and flowy fun in the style of thetford or similar.

Like you, I've rode Delamere for over 20 years. But the last few years (getting on for 10 I guess) I've had my head turned by trail centers. Although I have continued to use it reguraly with the dog and in later years with the children. This has mostly seen us on the fire roads. But the bad weather this winter has seen me return to Delamere for "proper" rides and I have convinced my "newer" riding friends to give it a try, something they were reluctant to do as "its to flat" and "there's not much to ride". Well I'm happy to report they have all changed there minds and we've had some really good rides this winter, so much so I believe we will still chose to ride there when the weather is better.

I guess our advantage was that I kind of remebered some good bits of trail and that gave us a good starting piont, but we have really enjoyed discovering/re-discovering the great trails. And one thing I've not heard at the end of the rides is that its too flat, you just have to work harder to get that "flow" we all love.

Not sure what help I can be, but if I can be I will. Good Luck.

A load of surfacing on the existing/developed single track would be a great start as the other facilities are already there.

2 good cafe's, bike shop, loads of parking and a train station 🙂

i agree with tthew, i know some of the nice natural singletrack does require a bit of work in certain sections, but i'd prefer that any new waymarked bits be new

although it does sound like this will require quite a bit of work and some time to arrange with the FC

Cheers for all the positive comments.

The biggest argument for all new trails is that a lot of the good singletracks are multi user (walkers mainly) esp round the outside edge of the forest. There are a number however that only seem to be used by riders and it is these we would seek to look at incorporating into a trail loop with new sections to link up, hopefully with a minimum of fire road, although there will have to be some to start with.

Old Pale… has not been completely ruled out, just need to avoid other users and families at the bottom of the hill.

Primrose Hill…. unlikely to be part of it due to being joined via the Sandstone trail.

Yes it is a lot of work. Dont envisage there being an all weather route in for next winter but you never know. The FC have a 5 year plan for recreation and the position of Delamere in the Northwest is very important being the second most visited attraction in the region (after Chester Zoo…maybe thats the answer, more monkeys?!)

We are at the stage with the club whereby we are organising ourselves officially as opposed to a loose collective of riders so as to access help with funding trail signage (a big issue with the FC) and from then on we can look at increasing the opportunities for sustainable trails. The FC have an engineer who has to approve everything we want to do. Issues such as bringing material into the forest need to be addressed as obviously rock and stone not exactly lying about the place too readily.

Cheers all.

I'm sorry to be the voice of disagreement, but I think this would be the worst thing possible for Delamere. It's just too small an area to have built trails on. It works great at Cannock as Follow the Dog keeps people away from the all the great singletrack. I just don't think Delamere is big enough to work in the same way.
I know people travel and then complain that they can't find any tracks, this amazes me, there's thousands of them. We're still doing our Monday night rides, and still finding new trails. Yes they're damp in the winter, but show me a forest that isn't. If you want manicured trail centre tracks then go to Llandegla, but Delamere should be left just as it is (in my humble opinion!!)

Dave
PS Anyone who can't find the tracks, please come out with us on a Monday night, and we'll show you loads of them, and give you a good laugh at the same time.

Shame you feel that way Dave as i had hoped you would be a useful contact regarding the route planning for a sustainable loop. I did expect that there would be this kind of reaction to the suggestion of a decent sustainable loop though. I'm sure the FC would like some input from you and would like you to expand on your reasons for the above comments. Its a genuine shame as I know that having put a lot of effort into the 4X/DH trails i will be scrabbling round for volunteers for the XC loop and hoped some of the xc locals would lend support. Oh well.

I have to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Dave. The thought of importing stone and surfacing materials into Delamere appalls me. Delamere is not CYB or Llandegla and it should not be transformed into them. It has wonderful natural singletrack which should be enjoyed for what it is, muddy in places in winter and dust in summer but superb either way. Yes there are some sections that are extremely muddy in winter and would benefit from some North Shore type management, but the FC have never shown any great tolerance of that in the past.

When all is said and done Delamere is a relatively small local forest. When I first started riding there mountainbikes were not particlularly welcome, and definitley came second to walkers and horseriders in the FC's eyes. Now there is the Go Ape and a campsite and I think the forest is in real danger of being over-developed and its character destroyed. I, for one, think that would be a great shame.

mccett – Member
Cheers for all the positive comments.
The biggest argument for all new trails is that a lot of the good singletracks are multi user (walkers mainly) esp round the outside edge of the forest. There are a number however that only seem to be used by riders and it is these we would seek to look at incorporating into a trail loop with new sections to link up, hopefully with a minimum of fire road, although there will have to be some to start with.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but that doesn't seem to fit in with what you were saying earlier re: all-new trails. If existing trail is going to be lost (by which I mean have its character changed a lot) that's a very different matter and were that the case I'd have to fall in with Paul and Dave.

Edit: p.s. Is there going to be any sort of wider consultation by the FC about this? I would have thought that your club members only represent a small fraction of the people who ride there.

PaulMc – it is unlikely that the character will be changed, however without using some material to sort out drainage in the worst areas, how would you suggest we make trails that will hold up to a good Delamere winter? If you have suggestions, again we need input. At the moment we are relying on the engineers employed by the FC.

I too enjoy the good singletracks and would be loathe to see them disappear. If the way to keep these trails is to build new ones then that is what I am pushing for, but the reality is that some trails may be incorporated. The riders that use these trails do so for a reason, they are good trails!

All meetings with the FC are open to all DRC club members so please feel free to join up and come along. That is why i have put this post up on stw, we need as much info and feedback as possible from a variety of riders. At the moment the club and FC are concentrating on the 4X track so this is the time to air your views before attention turns to the XC trails.

Thanks.

EDIT – al_f see above in bold. You will have to at least register an interest with the club to then come along to meetings with the FC, for the main reason that all meetings and plans will be put up on the club site and im not duplicating work on here. FC staff are signed up to the site also and have a direct input. The FC approached the club because we were the only identifiable rider user group that they could contact because we put notices up about the club near popular riding areas and placed bins about the place to try and improve relations with the FC. We had also attempted a couple of informal meetings with the FC to discuss trailbuilding/maintenance. Only now are they listening.

I can't believe the responses of Dave and PaulMc. There is plenty of scope for putting in better drainage and building some decent trails. I've been riding Delamere for 4 years now and still find bits of new stuff but for any casual visitor you will not get a good ride.

One trail could be a perimeter loop on the side where they sell the Christmas trees, with the really boggy bit either drained or built over with a wooden section.

Another trail could start from the visitors centre and climb up old pale using the zig zags which is already a bridle way, then descend towards Primrose Hill before taking the farm track back into the forest.

Bottom line is the FC and Tony should be applauded for this initiative. Stop being selfish guys and let's open this up to more people. It's not your forest it belongs to the public and not everyone wants to ride it at 7:30 on a monday evening.

What we should ask for and be grateful for is investment in cycling facilities,in the forest,and trade for the cafe, and pubs near by.

We shouldnt make it exclusive to a certain type of rider,but open to all riders,to enjoy, and meet other riders,theres plenty of space to ride etc.

Pembo,

Not that it's a competition, but I've been riding Delamere for about 16 years now. I find new tracks every year. There are very few sections that are not rideable all year round, mud and grime is part of mountain biking, and is what enables us to have nicer bits on our bikes when stuff wears out.

I'm a tad confused by your comment around it being mine and Paul's forest, and it has to be said that whilst 7.30 on a Monday is a brilliant time to ride the forest (due to superb atmosphere, camarardery(sp?), and cakes), it's surprisingly not the only time I ride there.

My only point is that I don't feel that the forest is big enough. Natural trails should be applauded, and not replaced everywhere with man-made one's. There's plenty of trails in there, I just favour people finding them themselves. Casual visitors can have a great experience if they're prepared to look around them. It's difficult to get lost when the forest is so small, and segregated into three sections by the roads.

I'm sorry if people disagree with me, but this is my opinion, that's all.

Dave

Pembo,

I am under no delusion that it is my forest. Nor do I ride there at 7.30 on a Monday evening.

I agree some bits could do with better drainage or wooden sections, like the bit on the perimeter trail you mention, but why do we need to build 'decent' trails when the place is full of them. The perimeter trail is already just that, a trail, why does it need to be formalised to become one. Same goes for the zig zags. It's a forest, just go and explore, if you take a dead end just try something else. I am still doing that after riding there for probably 15 years. There are plenty of alternatives places to ride for those who can't or won't explore.

My point is that constructing manmade trails with whacked grit or rock will destroy the character of the place. Delamere is about roots and sand/mud depending on the season. I don't believe formal trail building will preserve that.

Secondly, the beauty of Delamere is that it is constantly evolving. The perimeter trail you mention was a brilliant trail years ago before tree felling ruined it. Now that the scrub is growing back it has developed into a nice but different trail. Why would we want to confine ourselves to permanent formalised trails. I remember when mountainbikes were not welcome anywhere other than the fireroads. Now we can ride where we please and we should want to keep it that way.

Thirdly, Delamere doesn't have the space to cope. Car parking is already difficult for all the other users of the forest at weekends, including families with small kids, unless you get there really early. Why develop a trail centre to generate even more pressure on parking at peak times, which is when most mountain bikers will visit?

Beaten to it by Dave!

I have mixed views on this living as i do, 200 yards from the northern edge of the forest!

I can see the argument for improved surfacing in places and better signage for riders who are new to the forest. However, i'm inclined to agree with Dave re. the size of the forest. Its not like larger forests where you can build / develop trails for bikers as Delamere has particular issues with the mixture of users. I'd be concerned that even with the best signage in the world, the small size of the forest will lead to walkers on the 'dedicated' mtb trails and the inevitable conflicts this brings. There have been instances even in the last 12 months of cyclists and walkers being involved in minor incidents that have made the (very) local press.

If a route / routes can be developed which overcome this potential issue then give it a go. I think it would be better if existing singletrack can be incorporated into any loop rather than cutting new trails.

Chris

p.s Dave, must come out again with you and the Monday night riders now that i'm back in the UK.

Would like to see some boardwalk, like at gisburn over the worst of the gloopy bits. As for adding stone etc not sure it really needs it.
I use a single speed round there and part of the challenge is maintaining traction when climbing.

Are these plans to raise revenue for the forest as the only reason i can see to build harder surfaces is to make it durable for the masses. Then any technical stuff there gets smoothed out on health and safety grounds.

Presumably the FC have looked at car parking and although the visitor centre car parks gets busy there is always space where the Christmas trees are sold.

As you guys point out there are hundreds of trails in Delamere and I've had good fun linking them all up. But, there is also room for formalised and well signed trails alongside the cheeky stuff we all know. It's great to see mums, dads and kids out on bikes and Delamere is an ideal place to let them ride on a bit of well signed trail.

However, I can see potential issues between walkers and bikers but again I'm comfortable putting that problem in the hands of the FC.

It seems that quite a few of the 'against' vote, (please note, I don't mean negative, as there has been nothing by considered opinion voiced from what I see) fear that the installation of manmade trails will mean that the exisiting natural singletrack will be out of bounds to cyclists. Mccett, can you confirm that this isn't the FC's intent, the proposed develelopments are intended to complement what's there already?

I was down today with one of the rangers doing some work on the 4X track and asked him about this. There is a policy of open access to all on all FC land. So… any trails that are built on FC land are open to everyone. They cant stop people walking on them. All they ccan hope is that bike signage will deter walkers from following intended bike trails. Likewise they cant stop you riding all parts of the forest.

Seemed strange to me considering some of the No Walkers signs at some FC trail centres, but i believe that is more to deter and avoid accidents/conflicts. If a walker is bloody minded enough to walk up the final descent at Coed y Brenin there is nothing they can do to stop them. The same applies to Delamere.

Any xc loop will probably start with signage to assist in following the route. Trail developments/repairs/maintenance will follow….although as there was only me, the ranger and 2 FC volunteers today this take some time.

interesting range of views (as usual)! when i first read this thread, my immediate thought was "no no, not delly – i'm not sure about that".. but i'm all for it IF it was done properly that is… but not any of this family trails crap, seriously please no…..

i certainly don't believe that delamere forest park is too small for additional trails – but don't expect to fit a 30km red & black grading mtb route into it thats all! plus using the fire roads/highways would be required if just to cross sections of the park, how much use would be generated by a such a loop, the car park is too small on saturdays anyway and thats just the families and walkers

what i would would have a massive objection to is construction of a three lane motorway <popular at some trail centres> for me delly is all about the tight twisty singletrack, the mini timber structures crossing streams and ditches, the optional trails that a littered about, and the bits you go into that the average walker never dares go near

to be any good the singletrack would need to so tight that you are constantly fighting with the bars not to hit the trees, it is possible to build such tracks through the trees it just takes a little more effort – for example, certainly no wider than that new path laid near the Go Ape bit..

problem is, it'll properly never be what a typical mtb'er wants, because someone will deem it necessary to access all areas by paramedics etc. and other users will still go on it (whether it be to walk, run, shag, smoke dope or place doggy baggies on the branches) and it'll be used by all skill levels so it'll be dumbed down

but if anything is developed i'd still ride the muddy singletrack as well, i really don't believe in the construction of man made trails to keep us off the natural stuff

Interesting set of views. I don't think the Dave camp is NIMBY, but do find myself leaning towards that view. I too have spent a lot of time following dead ends and tramping through bracken, that's part of the fun for me. But I still had tremendous fun when I first started and didn't know where anything was.

I honestly think it's a remarkable warren of trails in such a tiny area. ANd it is tiny. Look at the OS, it's only a couple of miles square (you know, if it were a square). I'd be really worried about extra numbers any work would attract, the place is in danger of getting overdeveloped. I applaud your efforts to get involved with FC and steer them, but remember that however keen the local workers are, they are subject to wilful planning from up top.

I can accept progress (I can still clearly visualise my favourite 200yds of singletrack, long since disappeared under the 4x track), but don't particularly think it needs a nudge. Maybe that is NIMBY.

I'm sorry to be the voice of disagreement, but I think this would be the worst thing possible for Delamere.

Another vote in Daves camp here.

It's great to see mums, dads and kids out on bikes and Delamere is an ideal place to let them ride on a bit of well signed trail.

how about the existing firetrails?

I can't help but feel that if new routes were built for biking it wouldn't be long before bikes were banned from the other parts. I'm not going to repeat the well made points above but I rather like it as it is – mud included 🙂

Another local here, I live in Delamere itself and have been riding in the woods since before I knew what mountain biking was. To be honest I can't really see how a purpose built trail would be a bad thing (allthough there has been on and off talk for years). Some of the current trails would get 'redeveloped' I suppose, but in the case of trails like the perimeter one down to fox howl, that wouldn't be such a bad thing as they get a lot of use. I assume it would be a sustainable trail, thus taking the visiting mtb'ers (And there is a lot of them on weekends) away from the other less popular 'locals' trails, which us locals would still get to keep. Trails that would be redeveloped would be the popular, and know really wide ones that 'weekenders' know about anyway. A loop out from the Visitor center to the Dirt Jumps and back could be built, still leaving loads of 'locals' trails? I think some kind of trail building on the Old Pale would be great aswell. I really enjoyed the old 'DH' track.

I do kind of agree with the 'bikes might get banned from the rest of the woods' part though

Sorry if that is a bit rambling. Just my two cents

Hmmm very interesting thread…

I can understand why Delamere is seen as a good place to build trails, sure its not mountainous but it has enough bumps to make it a great place to ride. It sure can be muddy and that can sure add to the fun. In terms of sizing, if you add the car park where they sell xmas trees then its big enough to handle more cars. Its not a huge forest but looping trails back on themselves soon adds to the mileage and in comparison to llandegla it aint much smaller. Its near to some civilisation and so yeah, perhaps its ideal…

…BUT…

… I do get what Dave and Chunky Paul are saying… the forest is full of fantastic trails already. A complete maze of trails to explore. It sure can be fun. So why do we need yet another man made surfaced trail? If you're a family and / or with kids follow the marked fireroads.. if yer a hardened biker who wants to ride, then take a map and explore like we used to in the old (retro head days) and if you're a hardened biker who cant be ar$ed to explore go to llandegla and play on the jumps. Stop sanitizing our sport! ;o)

I'll get me coat

^^ What he said. I suspect that if you could put all the trails we [all] ride onto a map you'd think 'why do we need more?'

I don't really get who the FC are aiming at here.

Families will stick to the firetrails and more experienced bikers can go where they like. If they want to make it easier for new visitors to find their way around why not produce a map showing some of the existing natural trails?

The mud actually keeps walkers off most of the better bike trails and as such reduces the chance of conflict. Create 'nice' sanitised bike tracks and the walkers will go on them with the inevitable consequences.

End of the day, this will surely cost the FC a load of money, are they going to get that back just from car park income?

I agree that there is already a wealth of trails but would welcome them being sculpted a bit to add interest and and year round rideability. Surely there would be a place for this alongside the existing natural stuff?

would welcome them being sculpted a bit to add interest and and year round rideabilit

How can you improve on natural trails?

You can ride it year round – I do. In the summer it's pretty dry and in the winter you get muddy (remember the 'Joy of Filth'?).
You can't drain it and surfacing it will make it like riding a pavement through a wood…… crap.

I suspect a hidden agenda down the line.

Personally I am very wary of the FC getting involved in MTB trails around Delamere. The precedent of FC involvement is not good in Delamere with the alleged h+s issues being used to rip out the once very enjoyable dh track (well I used to find little problem on my XTC – so not that downhill but fun) from the mast down. I had noticed a few 6" humps appearing in the top section then Simon (FC manager at the time) appearing to this as an excuse to rip the whole dh run out. This was then followed up with a rather weak defence in the Chester Chronicle about vandalism – a few months later the FC built a new road to the top which cut right past the dh track and then the FC threw up a few stones at the top – which is quite attractive. BUT do you really accept the FC explanation of vandalism or was their motive perhaps blindingly obvious when the new road up to the mast and stones went in – the MTBers are in the way get rid – who were the real vandals in this case. A little bit of thought and planning would have allowed them to co-exist?

The concern is therefore the FC (and other well intentioned individuals) setting up a short xc MTB route around Delamere. A few months/a year later after the hard work has gone in and the fun starts , the FC restrict access to non way marked trails, the FC build new landmarks so some sections are ripped out and further restrictions implemented………………

You may think me cycical but the FC in Delamere have done themselves no favours by their past performance.

IMO
– Delamere is a great place to explore and trackdown the cracking sections of single track off the beaten track (I have been around the forest for 20 years and still find/get shown new routes)
– you can MTB for 3-4 hours with hardly any need to repeat sections so there is plenty out there – explore
– I don't have the quite the enthusiasm of some (Dave) for the gloop but thats Delamere and its great fun
– if you want manicured runs then Llandegla is great for that with bigger challenges available a bit further on at the Marin and Penmachno
– don't give the FC the opportunity to start restricting access to parts of the forest.

So please leave proposals for a xc circuit in Delamere just that a proposal not a reality.
– by all means develop the cycle skills area – it is great to see so many kids outdoors having a great time

Finally unless you have a young family and you are tootling about take care or avoid MTBing in the middle of Sundays around the cafe area as it does get very very busy with families, dogs, horses etc…..respect all forest users.

nic – I helped build the original 4x and dual course as well as the original DH runs in what is now the skills area (remember when it had trees and greenery growing on it!) For years I have been chopping branches, clearing trees, moving the few rocks, clearing numerous trails in the forest only to find them rippped out by rangers (or walkers, i dont know which). I was once nearly decapitated by wires across trees and when i pointed it out to the FC was told 'well you shouldnt be riding there'. I would have been the first person to think sod the FC… but they came to us first with this. To me this counts for something, they could have just bulldozed everything and we would carry on as we have for years, put some work in, get it ripped out 2 days later.

We have put our own money into this now getting insurance for the club and for trailbulding. If in 2 years time I get shat on by the FC, well i'll just keep riding the trails i have done for years and ride in Wales and the Peaks when its muddy and put it down to experience (again).

Thanks all for the interest and the comments, I hope that when we need volunteers there will be at least one or two that might want to help.