Lots of armchair experts on this thread, aren’t there?

I’ll rise to the bait and let you know why lots of Police Officers haven’t replied to this – and it’s probably because they can’t be bothered to get into an argument that won’t possibly lead anywhere constructive. We get enough argument and conflict at work (both with the public and our own ‘management’) to have any interest in doing so on this forum, seem by many as a place of escape and relaxation.

I for one am fed up with the Job that we (used to) love and cherish, and have sacrificed so much time, effort, blood and sweat to, being eroded by some obscure agenda by the main stream media. Morale is at an all-time low, budgets and resource levels are rock bottom, we get vilified everywhere whatever we do, and yet we still get on with it, helping those in need, saving lives and trying desperately to win a losing battle against criminality, all the while being hobnailed by the public, the government and the Courts.

I for one am fed up with the Job that we (used to) love and cherish, and have sacrificed so much time, effort, blood and sweat to, being eroded by some obscure agenda by the main stream media.

Yup, it ain’t the good old days anymore. If I were you I would quit.

some obscure agenda

There’s your issue, so you feel Racism is seen as an obscure agenda in the Force?  Wow.

Morale is at an all-time low, budgets and resource levels are rock bottom, we get vilified everywhere whatever we do, and yet we still get on with it, helping those in need, saving lives and trying desperately to win a losing battle against criminality, all the while being hobnailed by the public, the government and the Courts.

There’s a lot of people that value what you – and the other Services do – I suspect more than don’t, easily.   Unfortunately – and this is for another thread – you know full well how the media works in this country.   Yeah its painful, and if its not you it’ll be Nurses, Government officials, Doctors, Minister’s and so on.    We all get a battering from life from time to time, but in the main we adjust to an honest agenda.   To date there’s been no reaction from the Met or otherwise to change based on the current issues other than a bit of ill educated moaning on on Radio & TV.

Other problems are other problems and believe me we’d support you in extra funding, training, kit, whatever because you help us incredibly, but to jump on a thread and suggest Racism or racial bias is an “obscure agenda” doesn’t help people – especially people of colour – to be very empathetic.   You also need to acknowledge that although police activity is the focus in this thread, systemic racism is recognise as being much wider than you.   But you are an authority in our society, with a responsibility to that as an issue in a society which is very much multi cultural.

Yes lets all remember that the real victims here are the police, not the people they harass on a regular basis because of the colour of their skin.

Ok Siwhite, why did you mock Diane Abbott, a black MP with diabetes for wearing two left shoes? Wearing two left shoes for confort seems perfectly reasonable to me if someone has a physical disability due to illness.

siwhite
Subscriber

Excellent news to wake up to. Perhaps we can now leave the EU (there was a referendum, remember) and devote some parliamentary time to dealing with other matters that have been neglected over the last four years.

The only disappointment was that the Abbotasaurus is still an MP. Would anyone here give someone a job if they turned up to an interview with two left shoes on?

Also, time for Comrade Corbyn to resign – albeit about two years too late.
Posted 8 months ago
Reply | Report

Siwhite.

Are you sitting comfortably?

Starting with the armchair expert reference, youre invalidating not only other people’s opinions but their experiences too. You’re saying to people what happened to them or what they saw or experienced either didn’t happen or doesn’t matter.

I’ll counter ‘an argument that possibly won’t lead anywhere constructive’ with: ‘a conversation that possibly will lead somewhere constructive.’

When you say ‘obscure agenda by the mainstream media’ not only is that incredibly dismissive of the issue of racism as a whole, you are knowingly and willingly trotting out a Trump line, (Trump being the poster boy for 21st Century racism). Meanwhile, fringe media (talk radio etc) and social media have been following a much less obscure agenda. One of naked, hostile racism and for the last few years fringe and social media have arguably had a greater impact on society than mainstream media.

You chose to do a job that gives you absolute power over any member of the public, up to and including elected members of parliament. If you can’t hack the responsibility then maybe it’s not the job for you, though I see that you have considered that possibility.

Sorry to be so forensic with my review of your post but that’s all many of us one here are asking the police to do and police comissioners going public with a scatter gun full of what look like made up excuses is anything but forensic. And the police federation chairman, who represents officers in the field (like you) is hardly helping things by going on the most inflammatory media platform available to blame the victim and stir up more bile.

some obscure agenda

…being Police bashing at every opportunity (including this, it seems) and not racism. Hope that clears things up?

…being Police bashing at every opportunity (including this, it seems) and not racism. Hope that clears things up?

It seems to me that the police-bashing in this thread is because of racism. I suppose one could use the former as an excuse to not address the latter…

I don’t think this thread is full on police bashing but there is certainly an element of this.

Some constabularies have been recognised as being institutionally racist, some police officers are racist. Not all police officers are racist just like not all of the public are racist.

Some of the comments in this thread, on both sides, are very loaded and there seems to little room for dialogue.

It’s very easy to point fingers and identify problems. It’s much harder to come up with solutions. So why don’t you guys with the very strong views try to work together rather than pointing fingers?

ElShamino,

This is the first thread in relation to recent events that police members have contributed to so in that sense at least a dialogue has started. And whilst I take issue with much of what those officers have said I don’t see them as deliberately trolling. I see their contributions as valuable.

I’m not going to comment on how I value the contributions of the Police, the military, the NHS etc. I would have thought that these things were a given. There’s a post cold war, post Diana sentimentalism that’s crept in to Western Society which has morphed into a kind of fascism. Talk about virtue signalling.

I wondered if I’d gone in too hard with siwhite, but looking back I only responded directly to his comments, I didn’t indulge in any whataboutery or wild accusations. Yesterday I was talking about how difficult it must be for good police to speak out and cited reasons why I thought that might be the case.

I’d like siwhite to reflect on his comments from a few months back. Whilst we can’t defend Diane Abbot from her own ineptitude we can defend her from abuse. You might think it fair that if it’s ok to use the word ‘gammon’ to describe an old white reactionary then it’s ok to refer to a black woman as an ‘Abbotasaurus.’

Freedom of speech and all that but you should be aware that you’re contributing to one of the largest tsunamis of hate that any public figure has endured. There is a history of refering to black people as animals that has a particular connotation. Intentions and outcomes, you might not have intended to be racist, but every little helps.

You could apologise for that comment. I apologised earlier for making a gender assumption with regards policemen / officers. I feel a little better for it and have found myself double checking every time I use the assignation. I’m making progress. An appology for your past remarks might do the same for you. I take your point that you were reffering to a police bashing agenda rather than racism as a whole, just as you took it that your comment could be misunderstood, so made a correction.

ElShalimo
Member

Some constabularies have been recognised as being institutionally racist, some police officers are racist. Not all police officers are racist just like not all of the public are racist.

Of course not, nobody except from idiots ever says they are. But there’s more than enough racists, and enough non-racists prepared to turn a blind eye to racists, to be a major problem. (and as sometimes gets overlooked, if a non-racist officer is willing to overlook a fellow officer’s racism, what else will they overlook? It’s a nasty thin end of a wedge, that.

“Not all police officers are racist” isn’t much of a win really.

[ edit: someone crossed the streams… I replied to something copied from another thread, further derailing this one… I’ve removed my post. ]

Anyone else concerned that Dawn Butlers involvement in this will start or continue or reinforce the identification of the BLM movement along party political lines?

For me, this is something that should transcend our usual grubby politics; be seen as something more important, more far reaching. If BLM = Labour, I think we lose some of that, I think it will be soaked up and diluted and that translated into activism will mean that BLM becomes another placard to carry at Labour marches rather than a separate thing.

I appreciate that she is involved because this happened to her and therefore her interest is personal as well as political, but sometimes personal is not the same as important.

Anyone else concerned that Dawn Butlers involvement in this will start or continue or reinforce the identification of the BLM movement along party political lines?

It always was. I can’t see any right wing politics showing much interest in it or taking any actions to improve things.

I think it’s always been political, and largely along a left/right or progressive/conservative line. Racism itself doesn’t split as cleanly but wanting to do something about racism largely does these days. Even totally unracist conservatives still are more inclined to oppose social change, be “tough on crime”, believe that everyone has opportunities etc. (and even totally racist leftwingers are probably more inclined to support the sort of changes in education, poverty, law etc that by their nature also help to reduce some of the impacts and divides of racism)

I have driven all over the country in various (nice) company cars day and night. Rural and urban areas. I have never been stopped. Maybe if i wasn’t white this would be different?

The driver in this case was white and he got stopped. (Dawn Butler was the passenger, not the driver).

The driver in this case was white and he got stopped. 

Source please.

The driver in this case was white

Not according to Dawn Butler.

Source please.

Fair question but I’m afraid I can’t provide one, so Hitchen’s law applies. (I’ve viewed a few clips, the phone pans round and you can see the driver – his face is pixeled out but appears white to me.)

Not according to Dawn Butler.

I’ve just googled and I can’t find anywhere where she claims the driver was black.

Sir Steve House has been quoted and paraphrased: “He also condemned abuse directed towards Ms Butler, including conspiracy theories suggesting the driver of the car was white, after the footage was shared.”

Here you go

If BLM = Labour, I think we lose some of that, I think it will be soaked up and diluted and that translated into activism will mean that BLM becomes another placard to carry at Labour marches rather than a separate thing.

The suggestion/claim in this article is that the BAME members are not happy with Starmer.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/aug/13/hierarchy-of-racism-fears-threaten-starmers-hopes-of-labour-unity

Hmm… looking into this led me to reading an article on Spiked. I knew they’d ramped things up, but it’s full on alt-right extremism now, isn’t it. The legacy of Living Marxism really is just controversy stirring for hard cash (and perhaps a place in the house of lords). I forget that we’re as now as bad as the USA. Spiked, Academy of Ideas etc are all just Info Wars style grifting… rewarded by political patronage. To think they once claimed to be Marxists, just for the grift as well. Depressing.

So the copper put in one digit on the number plate wrong and somehow miraculously that number came back to the same make, model and colour car but from Yorkshire. Or did the copper bury the lead?

@crikey

I appreciate that she is involved because this happened to her and therefore her interest is personal as well as political, but sometimes personal is not the same as important

So, are you saying that Ms Butler’s interest is not important? Or her involvement is not important? So the involvement of a black woman who has been stopped with no good reason multiple times, being in a car driven by a friend who has been stopped many more times than herself, is not important?

I would say the involvement of a rather high-profile black woman is pretty important.

As ever, it’s always good to see the racists out themselves on these threads!

Fairly depressing to think that these types of people have such power over us though ☹️

I am suggesting that the involvement of Dawn Butler may continue to define BLM as a party political issue rather than something which should be bigger than party politics.
Of course it’s important.
Of course it’s personal.
Elsewhere on the web her political status is being used to discredit her and by extension, the story.
I don’t know if she can be separated from her political status in this instance, but I don’t want this to be a Labour thing because it should be a people thing.

I don’t know how this can be avoided, I don’t know if it should be…

Rather than throwing mud at those who serve let’s step back

What is currently happening isn’t working for the communities and is separating the police from them which means it is not working for them either.

Policing of these communities in London and other inner cities needs to be tested against the Peel principles. Policing by consent needs the community to support it

The heavy lifting isn’t just for the police, communities need to engage. It’s important that the community realise that there are people who act criminally, who are very dangerous, and that need to be put through the criminal justice system. The flip side is that policing needs to engage carefully and understand what works and what doesn’t, it may not be captured on the spreadsheet.

It will take a lot of money, leadership, time and effort. Quite a lot is probably done now or in the past, what is needed is to step that up into much larger effort to reset relationships and change behaviours

I hope the serving officers on here stay safe whilst keeping us safe. I hope they think about what is happening and try to do their bit to make things better. Dealing with the nasty end of society can lead to a fatigue, we need to recognise that sometimes that requires a reset.

The heavy lifting isn’t just for the police, communities need to engage.

On the subject of racism in the police, this looks awfully close to victim blaming.

People would have a lot more sympathy for the police if we didn’t continually see this ‘protect your own’ mentality where people make crap excuses for stuff that shouldn’t be happening.

The fact is that black people are disproportionately stopped and searched, more likely to get charged for drug offences, receive longer sentences for the same crimes etc. We need some honesty about that as a starting point.

By extension, the anti-racism work shouldn’t be left to the BAME communities.

Having read the Peel principles, it’s pretty hard not to see that there have been many instances where they have certainly not been upheld.

For examle, no.6:

<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.</span>

The video of Wretcn 32’s 61 year old father getting tasered with pretty much no warning. Let alone persuasion or advice. Just screaming orders. Tasering a race relations group leader in the face, a 63 year old, does not really meet the minimum degree of physical force, does it?

And no.2;

To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.

When instances like Ms Butler’s occur so often,  how can the community that is disproportionately affected by policing strategies give their approval?

Hearing officers say that it is normal to pull people for almost no reason does not make me more respectful of the police. The pretty much constant, instant, defending of officers actions in many of these situations, is also something that diminishes trust. It gives the impression of closing rank. The use of software to determine the criminal speciality of particular ethnicities, doesn’t really help, either.

If you don’t want to be seen to be racist,  don’t do racist things. And if you want to earn the trust and respect of communities, don’t target them and wonder why that trust and respect don’t exist.

It will take a lot of money, leadership, time and effort.

Exactly. Shame we’ve had 10 years of cutting police and local authority budgets. That needs to be reversed – I know this isn’t a great time to do so what with Covid and all but unless we want prisons to be a major part of our economy like the USA we need to act.

Political disclosure: voted Conservative until 1997, voted Lib Dem since.

So the copper put in one digit on the number plate wrong

So how long can you drive round that there London without passing an NPR installation?
The system was obviously not putting out an alert if the registration insurance MOT(?) were all valid so was the wrong registration input before or after the stop?
One of the reasons we/I don’t have any trust in the police is because of their inclination to make their actions fit the circumstances and often with the collusion of msm and the Sun.
I am rather enjoying seeing their current ‘its not fair poor us’ situation. Had it been another unarmed shooting this would all have been cleared up and moved on ‘nothing to see here’ but it was low key and below the radar and suddenly it is mainstream.

I understand that the Police have been beleaguered for a decade now, being stripped of resources, being asked to fullfil roles that should be the responsibillity of social services and other agencies and at constant odds with the Conservative government. I can see that they must feel they are in a constant state of crisis management.

However, in having to juggle all this they have dropped a ball. Whatever progress the Police feel they have made with regards race over the years, they now have to recognise that that progress has stopped. Gone backwards even.

The Police now look as out of touch as they did in the early 80’s, although this time they don’t have the unswerving support of the Government that they had under Thatcher. Thatcher made a deal with the Police, she politicised them with regards the miners strike etc and supported them publicly and financially but in return she demanded they conformed to due process, she introduced the recording of all interviews, thus putting an end to ‘verbals’, where in court a police officers word would be taken as gospel, as hard evidence. Thatcher’s insistence on recorded evidence was probably the single most effective meaaure ever taken in tackling Police corruption.

This time Police are on their own, they don’t have proper funding or even moral support (save the odd platitude) from the Government and they’re losing the support of ever wider sections of the public with every bit of their public messaging. Part of the reason the Police are embarrassing themselves in the media by throwing out a smorgasbord of excuses and whataboutery is because the Gov’t isn’t even covering for them. They’re being thrown to the wolves like poor little lambs, all this conflict is a great distraction and cover for the Goverments other nefarious actions.

So a reset is definitely needed but God knows where it’s going to come from.

crikey
Member

I am suggesting that the involvement of Dawn Butler may continue to define BLM as a party political issue rather than something which should be bigger than party politics.

I sort of almost said this earlier but didn’t actually manage to get to the conclusion, so…

The only thing that can stop anti-racism being a party political thing, is to have the racist parties stop being racist, not to have the anti-racist parties worry about being anti-racist. I get where you’re coming from but this isn’t a thing to handwring over, or be moderate about, this is a line to draw.

“The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal…”

The other thing is, it’s not a Black Lives Matter thing at all. It’s a common or garden racism thing, same as has been happening for generations before anyone ever said “But surely all lives matter?”

Yes.

I’m struggling to properly articulate what I mean, partly because the debate especially here doesn’t lend itself towards …the free-er explanation of things without automatically being accused of racism.

I think I’m thinking along the lines of BLM/antiracism having to become a bit like drunk driving or seatbelts or some other social thing; it needs to become part of us, part of our psyche, an unacceptable thing in general terms rather than in party political terms.

If it gets aligned with party politics then it becomes easy to ignore by that part of the population who don’t align with the party politics that it becomes aligned with…

I think it becomes easy to ‘protest’ for this week, or this month. It’s not easy to carry that forward for a year or a couple of years or forever, Amen.

There are lessons to be learned from Brexit, from the current Tory party, from Dominic Cummings et al; I’m sure that giving Rupert Murdoch a million pounds in return for a BLM or antiracist campaign would do more than any number of earnest speeches or heartfelt protests, but does the end justify those means?

The battleground of protest and social change has moved and I think that the ‘game’ needs to move accordingly. Protest in itself is all well and good, but we need to move beyond placards and committees and strident and heartfelt comments on forums…

Fair question but I’m afraid I can’t provide one, so Hitchen’s law applies. (I’ve viewed a few clips, the phone pans round and you can see the driver – his face is pixeled out but appears white to me.)

Not according to the police themselves.

On the subject of racism in the police, this looks awfully close to victim blaming.

Really?

Getting communities to work with the police to reset their relationship from both sides is victim blaming.

To police by consent successfully with the emphasis on one side to do all the work is a recipe for failure, the police alone will be unable to see the changes required. At the same time more resources are needed, more political support to change, more BAME people need to join the police, either as specials or for their career etc.

If the issue is tackled on multiple fronts and investment and leadership follows change will happen.

With regards the politicisation of BLM, the Tories own this from Windrush to Brexit. Add to that Boris doing his best Enoch Powell impersonation by tweeting about Winston Churchill 10 times on the day of the London march. He was trying to stir it up as much as he possibly could.

Labour has in general been pretty clueless about how to respond. In many ways Starmer mimics Corbyn in that it seems that he’s got to wait for party conference or a round of committee meetings to have a debate about what official Labour ‘Policy’ should be. As I mentioned on another thread, events seem to pass Starmer by. Just respond as a human being FFS.

BLM as a movement is much too agile for Starmer and the Labour hierarchies. By the time the party finds a ‘position on the issue the debate will have progressed beyond whatever statement comes out from the leadership.

I’m ok with that, not expecting the Labour Party to deliver for BLM. Changes will come from the cultural sector and the business sector, they always have. The most effective strategy that BLM can employ is to make racism bad for business. The biggest changes we’ve seen so far have been related to sport, where business and culture collide. Sport has been pushed towards a zero tolerance approach and has had to respond. To not do so would be bad for business.

We’ve seen a lot of businesses proclaim their support for BLM and even if you think they’re being cynical or disingenuous their motive is clear, they want to protect their business and they recognise that racism is bad for their business.

To police by consent successfully with the emphasis on one side to do all the work is a recipe for failure, the police alone will be unable to see the changes required

So the police can’t help being racist because their victims aren’t holding their hands. Riiight.