You cannot nationalise anything anymore, it’s against EU policy.

Source please

..and yet some people think that the Murdoch-backed SNP is a leftist party!

That was a shrewd anti-Labour / Pro-Tory move, back the SNP in Scotland to maximise Labour losses.

Seriously – ffs, how can people come out with such bollocks ?

I think the same when I read most of your posts ernie…

Well I’ve provided evidence as to why the claim that Miliband is left-wing is bollocks, ie, he’s to the right of public opinion, even to the right of Tory voters, on the issue of nationalisation, perhaps you can now provide evidence why my claim is bollocks footflaps ?

I don’t have any problem with you thinking most of my posts are bollocks btw, I’m just interested in what you think I got wrong with regards to Miliband’s “left-wing” credentials.

So no examples of policies which put Ed Miliband significantly to the left of public opinion then.

It would appear that Ed Miliband’s entire “left-wing” credentials are based on the fact that the Sun and the Daily Mail called him “Red Ed”.

Just as well his name was Ed and it rhymed with red then, otherwise it might have been more difficult to convince people.

😆

Brilliant.

Ernie, there was some other stuff that frightened the horses (not sure it’s all “left” necessarily): mansion tax, abolition of non-dom tax status for the vaguely foreign wealthy, some vague commitment to rent control, minimum wage increases, whatever they were going to do about zero-hours contracts.

I agree it’s a long way from a left programme, but (I suspect crucially) it was just enough to convince Blair-fans that it was “the politics of the 80s”.

Source please

Common knowledge JY (You are welcome to check validity of my statement I cannot be bothered, the new TTIP wold allow any company to actually sue an EU government for doing anything which unreasonably impacted their business, even a policy change). During the financial crises France ran into quite a lot of problems trying to find a way to offer support one of the car companies as it fell foul of “state aid”. Banks could be rescued as they where bust which is different.

So no examples of policies which put Ed Miliband significantly to the left of public opinion then

He lost the election with more people voting for parties to the right of Labour. Ed was to the left of public opinion,that’s why he lost and David would have been the better leader. Something the Labour party member and the MPs knew all along.

There is little doubt in my mind that the Labour party will elect a more center-right biased, dare I say it Blair-ite leader.

Thank you for bringing up those two policies BigDummy, if they are indeed “left-wing” policies then it shows how left-wing the public is.

There is no evidence (beyond the rantings of the Daily Mail) that the mansion tax and abolition of non-dom tax status was a vote loser for Labour, in fact the overwhelming evidence is that the electorate backed the policies.

Non-doms: Public overwhelmingly back Labour policy

According to the snap FirstVerdict poll, 77% of people support removing the non-dom tax break on wealthy UK residents, with just 20% opposing it.

A separate Survation poll for the Mirror today also found broad support for the policy with 70% of Labour voters backing it and just 15% opposing it. Even Conservative voters were in favour with 47% backing it as opposed to just 29% opposing it.

And the mansion tax which was originally the idea of those terribly “left-wing” Liberal Democrats and was adopted by Labour because it was seen as popular with the electorate :

Majority support mansion tax

The poll reveals that 65% of people in Britain support introducing a mansion tax, while 22% are opposed and 13% are undecided. A plurality (49%) of Tory voters support the plan, while 41% are opposed and 10% aren’t sure. Labour and Lib Dem voters are strongly in support of the mansion tax, at 79% and 74% respectively.

Support for these policies was way way above all margins of error, even the 5% or so margin of error the GE polls ended up having, it’s clear that public opinion was overwhelming in line with Labour policy on those issues. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if there greater opposition within the Labour party itself.

Btw it’s interesting that clamping down on tax dodgers should offered as an example of “left-wing” policy, that’s a new one on me.

.

As for : some vague commitment to rent control,minimum wage increases, whatever they were going to do about zero-hours contracts. You really need to provide evidence that people were attracted to the Tories because they wanted, the minimum wage to be kept low, job insecurity, and unaffordable rent.

You really need to provide evidence that people were attracted to the Tories because they wanted, the minimum wage to be kept low, job insecurity, and unaffordable rent.

I’m not arguing with your thesis I don’t think – I’m just pointing out that people claimed Labour had gone insanely left wing based on more than just the two examples from the FT you suggested.

The Blairites are going to tell us repeatedly that enough “aspirational” people thought it was a horrifying left wing programme that they got over their preference for being “of the left” in the Tony Blair sense and voted Tory to stop it happening.

I suspect I may have more mates than you who shop in Waitrose and have Audis. A number were very upset that Labour did not take “wealth creators” (i.e. them) seriously enough, and were worried about non-wealth-creator issues like making rent affordable (so they got less), paying staff decently (at the expense of profits)etc. People with plenty of money are very good at convincing themselves that their own interests and the national interest are roughly synonymous.

(Sorry – I may be off the point. I tend to agree that Miliband wasn’t seriously left of (much) public opinion, and isn’t terribly left anyway)

🙂

Listening to the various factions of the Labour party, such as it is, list their idea of where the party should be heading, from Ken Livingstone on the left, to Chuckie on the ‘lets-just-become-the-Tories’ right, it sounds like they’re at the stage now that the Tory party was when they appointed William Hague.

Headless chickens, with absolutely no idea which way to turn

Dave will be laughing his tits off. He’s about to embark on what is likely be the most right wing and divisive parliamentary programme ever, one that could see the breakup of the UK, an exit from Europe, and the effective privatisation of the NHS, and god knows what else, and to all intents and purposes, there is no opposition. And what there is is about to spend the forceable future bickering with each other

I now think that the labour party is so internally divided, they may never come back from this

I suspect I may have more mates than you who shop in Waitrose and have Audis.

Well you certainly know how to wound 🙁

.

Btw I shop in Aldi, more people shop in Aldi than in Waitrose, I’m not sure why your mates shopping habits makes you better informed with how the electorate thinks.

And tell your Audi driving Waitrose shopping mates to steer well clear of the United States, that well known bastion of left-wing extremism won’t tolerate non-dom status.

Well you certainly know how to wound

Aw mate, I’m sorry. It didn’t occur to me you’d read that as oneupmanship. 🙁

I was just noting that supposedly important class of people who like to feel they’re left wing until it matters, who were going batshit.

that supposedly important class of people who like to feel they’re left wing until it matters

You mean when a general election comes ?

Well obviously Labour needs to be more firmly right-wing when general elections come to keep your Audi-driving Waitrose-shopping fickle mates, who like to feel left-wing when it doesn’t matter, happy.

I thought Ed Miliband did an excellent job in that respect by offering a 20 month price freeze gimmick on gas and electricity prices instead of promising the nationalisation of gas and electricity which is what the public really wants.

Although you appear to think that was seen as just too left-wing by Audi drivers. Perhaps a Blairite leader might emerge who will have a commitment to loosen the grip of the regulator Ofgem and allow “the market” to decide. Higher gas and electricity prices sounds like a proper right-wing “vote-winner” to me 🙂

As binners’ last post was much more interesting than whatever tiny sub-fragment of a point we’re not really arguing about, I am going to agree with you, and bump his post. 🙂

binners – Member
Listening to the various factions of the Labour party, such as it is, list their idea of where the party should be heading, from Ken Livingstone on the left, to Chuckie on the ‘lets-just-become-the-Tories’ right, it sounds like they’re at the stage now that the Tory party was when they appointed William Hague.

Headless chickens, with absolutely no idea which way to turn

Dave will be laughing his tits off. He’s about to embark on what is likely be the most right wing and divisive parliamentary programme ever, one that could see the breakup of the UK, an exit from Europe, and the effective privatisation of the NHS, and god knows what else, and to all intents and purposes, there is no opposition. And what there is is about to spend the forceable future bickering with each other

I now think that the labour party is so internally divided, they may never come back from this

Well binners last post is indeed interesting however it’s a classic example of wrong conclusions from correct premises, something which imo binners is repeatedly guilty of. I’m often highly impressed with binners insightfulness and his critique of the Tories is regularly absolutely spot on imho.

However I strongly disagree that Cameron is laughing his tits off. He has a very slim majority, a notoriously rebellious party which has been proven to be ruthless in its attitude to leaders it no longer feels any use for, and a whole of lot potentially massive headaches – Europe, the economy, by-election disasters, constitutional/devolution crises, public hostility, and so on.

And with that comes the knowledge that the last time the British people got a Tory government which they didn’t expect to get the Tories were absolutely hammered at that next general election.

He has a very slim majority, a notoriously rebellious party which has been proven to be ruthless in its attitude to leaders it no longer feels any use for, and a whole of lot potentially massive headaches – Europe, the economy, by-election disasters, constitutional/devolution crises, public hostility, and so on

I’m not disputing any of that Ernie. You’re bang on that his biggest problem is his own backbenchers. I imagine that if he doesn’t already regard them like John Major did – as bastards – then he will be doing soon. But this is the whole point. His main problem should be sat across from him, not behind him.

All this will succeed in doing is dragging his agenda even further to the right, as the borderline nutters/UKIPPERS/John Redwoods in his party exploit the weakness of his majority to demand more and more concessions. A bit like the SNP would apparently do to Ed – the irony eh?

I read the quote on their attitude to Europe and the referendum – ‘they won’t take yes for an answer’

So this is why we need an effective opposition, now more than ever. Just when we’re not going to have one. I expect the labour party, who’s simmering divisions have been kept smothered in the run up to the election (or actually.. since the election of Ed), are about to implode into right/left factional infighting, and lose sight completely of what it is they’re actually meant to be doing….. being an opposition.

Labour’s problem is in Aldi not Waitrose, See below for split of vote between economic groups

mefty, that desperately needs sourcing – could you give us a link?

Got it: Here

In a minor tidal wave of what looks like pre planned statements, a group of commentators have argued that what lost the election was a failure to tap into the hopes of “aspirational” voters.

However, there is not a shred of evidence for their argument. The explanations for our defeat are deeper than this simplistic assessment.

The truth is that Labour recovered amongst middle class voters but has suffered a cataclysmic decline among working class voters.

Not exactly an unbiased opinion – Jon Trickett (or Ian Lavery) would possibly be my favoured candidate to be Labour leader and the article might be seen as him making a pitch for the job, but still very true nevertheless imo.

After every Labour election defeat the hard right within the party, as well as the Tory press, quickly move to claim that it was because the party was too “left-wing”. Deeply inconvenient facts such the complete lack of left-wing policies or the collapse of the Labour vote in Scotland where voters felt they had a left-wing alternative are just simply ignored or dismissed as irrelevant.

Common knowledge

Classic jambalaya! ” 😆 “, as I believe the master would say.

I think he did really well at maintaining a dignified distance.

Supporters of Labour (of which I am one) need to decide if they would rather have a) a party which had a more left wing party line and never had a chance to implement any ideas at all, or b) a more centrist platform which picks up voters other than those who would vote for Labour whatever, and which actually has a chance to do something.

Choosing Ed was a message to the electorate that the party had chosen a)

The older ones of us remember Foot and Kinnock. Ed was a similar electoral suicide note.

Supporters of Labour (of which I am one)

How do you define ‘Labour supporter’ ?

You obviously didn’t vote Labour because according to you “Ed was a similar electoral suicide note”.

Indeed @kona, I think I may have got away with it as JY hasn’t posted since 😉

I checked again and in fact its possible theoretically but almost certain the EU commission would seek to block any nationalisation of public transport or utilities.

Ernie – logic fail… again…

I did vote for them – in a constituency where they came fourth – but I wasn’t so blind to reality that I didn’t realise in places where they needed to win to swing it, they weren’t going to.

The Labour party presented an image and/or policy package that the people who they needed to vote for them didn’t like. They lost. This was predictable to people who aren’t self-deluding and who remembered the margin-of-error in polls. Blaming anyone else but Ed and the core of the party is silly.

What would you rather have – an ununelectable solidly socialist party, or one which actually represents the views & wishes of leftwards half of the electorate?

Trouble is – often it takes time for Politicians to realise that people have moved on without them, and they are fighting yesterday’s battle.

Actually it’s you who fails the logic test Stoatsbrother.

You claim that Ed Miliband was so left-wing (God only knows what you think left-wing means) that he, quote : “never had a chance to implement any ideas at all” You wouldn’t think that the Tories only managed to get a majority of 11 and the lowest vote of any ruling party in decades, considering that Labour ‘never had a chance at all’.

Perhaps you could list these allegedly left-wing policies which Labour needs to abandon to have a vague chance of winning ?

Just a few will do if you can’t think of too many.

And btw between 1997 and 2010 the Labour Party lost 5 million votes, the right-wing of the party was firmly in control during that entire period, can you explain to me what happened ?

jambalaya – Member

I checked again and in fact its possible theoretically but almost certain the EU commission would seek to block any nationalisation of public transport or utilities.

Like they did when we nationalised the east coast line?

Like they did when we nationalised the east coast line

State rescue of a failing business is different from nationalisation of a profitable business. East Coast / Lloyds / RBS are not the same as going after EON, NPower etc.

Actually the state rescue of a failing business is very much against EU rules. For it to be permitted requires special approval from the EU.

Actually the state rescue of a failing business is very much against EU rules. For it to be permitted requires special approval from the EU

But much easier to get / get round where there’s a public interest and if there’s a passive target happy to be taken over. Then there’s unlikely to be a large lobby against it.

You don’t think it’s in the public interest to nationalise French state owned companies for example ?

There’s no argument that the company needs to be taken over by the state to ensure continuity of service.

Some of the public may be interested in state owned services, but that is different from the public interest. I’m ambivalent – I’d like to seem them managed more in the interest of the public, but I recall how crap service was from BT, BR etc so I’m not entirely convinced public ownership gives a guaranteed overall better outcome.

So you think French state owned railways for example can ran railways in the UK better than British state owned railways ?

East coast rail has been too successful – quick, privatise it

“How infuriating it must be, then, for free-market ideologues that east coast depended on less public subsidies than any of the 15 privately run rail franchises”.

Personally I think the labour party needs to abandon divisive concepts such as left and right, rich and poor, working, middle or upper class, and become the party of aspiration by defining a new narrative for the nation based on personal responsibility and achievement rather than reliance on the state.

Yes that was a joke. I’ve read stuff like this bollox for the past week and heard it on the news from inumerable labour MPs and commentators and it’s making me laugh quite a lot. WTF does ‘aspirant’ mean? Surely everyone is aspirant? I don’t know many people who want to be worse off. Seems like the only lesson they’ve learned is that they are presenting themselves wrong and that’s all that needs fixing. Pointless.

So you think French state owned railways for example can ran railways in the UK better than British state owned railways

You’re very good at trying to put words into people’s mouths, but I didn’t say that.

The difference is the passage of time and the improvement in quality of management generally and who took responsibility for doing that. Other countries improved the company management and invested. We sold our companies to people who would. Can’t change that. So now we don’t really have enough scale in state owned industries to mount bids for nationally significant services. Trying to undo that would require political and financial capital of epic proportions and time beyond the horizon of any politician.

I’ve read stuff like this bollox for the past week and heard it on the news from inumerable labour MPs and commentators…

The hard right always moves quickly and they clearly had their script in hand as soon as the election result was announced. Labour shadow ministers queued up to criticise Ed Miliband despite the fact that they had been perfectly happy to go along with Labour’s manifesto when they thought Labour would win.

The good news is that their obvious attempt to bounce Labour into a quick leadership election with minimal discussion has failed.

“So you think French state owned railways for example can ran railways in the UK better than British state owned railways”

You’re very good at trying to put words into people’s mouths, but I didn’t say that.

You are perfectly capable of saying what you want to say, I can’t edit your posts.

So you don’t think French state owned railways for example can ran railways in the UK better than British state owned railways, excellent.

Trying to undo that would require political and financial capital of epic proportions and time beyond the horizon of any politician.

Not at all. It was extremely easy to nationalise the East Coast line, as it was Railtrack, in fact it proved completely impossible to keep them privatised. If you want to do things slowly then all that is required is to wait until the franchises expire and then bring the rail services back into public ownership.

It couldn’t be easier really. There’s no excuses.

It was easy to assume state control of East Coast because its owners withdrew support and could not fulfil franchise obligations. I referred to them being passive earlier. Of course a state controlled body could bid for future rail franchises. In terms of political and financial capital I was referring to the likes of power companies – seeing as I’d mentioned them earlier. I’m much less concerned about transport than utilities.

The EU would much prefer French state owned enterprises like the railways to be privatised. Forcing privitisation (which they are not doing) is of course different from nationalising private business.