[Closed] Cyclists don't pay for roads: Debating "road tax" with the undebatable

Loooong, but this may amuse some of you:

I've been engaged in a little "debate" about car tax and the rights of cyclists with someone on YouTube calling himself [b]1CuppaCharr[/b].

Unusually he concedes that car tax ("road tax") doesn't actually pay for roads and that all taxpayers do. And that some cars don't pay it. And that most cyclists have cars and pay VED. But still maintains that cyclists don't pay so should be subservient to drivers.

All in all it forms an illuminating and rather disturbing insight into the irrational thoughts of the most outspoken bike haters.

The comments are all on [url=

video[/url], in which a rather misguided bloke attempts to show how cyclists should crawl around roundabouts in the left gutter for their own safety and to avoid "hindering drivers". 🙄

For those unable to get to YouTube, here are a few highlights:

[b]1CuppaCharr[/b]:
Only taxdisc displaying drivers actually PAY to USE the road... The rest of you bunk on? for FREE.

No pay... No say...

[b]GrahamStw[/b]:

Millions of "taxdisc displaying drivers" legally pay ZERO car tax.

Or are you suggesting that drivers of Band A cars should get "no say" too?

Following that logic,? "the say" of one Band I driver is ten times more important than that of a Band B driver; and one HGV driver outranks ten Band F drivers.

Democracy through tax contribution. Lovely.

Perhaps we could extend your values to other parts of society? Why should non-taxpayers get benefits, NHS treatment, or education for example?

[b]1CuppaCharr[/b]:

Eco warrior hippy beatnik drivers are cheating the system.. They're no better than benefit thieves.. Nobody is saying FARE paying drivers are more? important than those who don't PAY their FARE... However those road USERS that do NOT pay should have a little respect for those that DO pay..

No pay... No say...

[b]GrahamStw[/b]:

Well personally I think everyone deserves respect, independent of how much tax they pay or how much money they earn.

But you seem to confuse "respect" with "subservience". I'm sure you'd happily give up your parking space to someone driving a higher band car for example; or stop and give way to a cyclist who earns more than you. But really? I think having a standard set of rules for all makes a bit more sense, don't you?

[b]1CuppaCharr[/b]:

Look I'm not suggesting that Britain become some crazy plutocracy.. All I'm saying is that motorists PAY an awful lot more than cyclists in order to USE the road... Yet it's cyclists that are the ones who ride roughshot over the humble driver.. It's the humble driver that is the submisive. Cyclists PAY nothing from cycling alone... Cyclists? should be seen but NOT heard.

No pay.. No say...

Nobody is suggesting VED pays for the roads.. All taxpayers PAY for the construction and maintenance of our roads. VED is a cleverly disguised FEE to actually USE the road... It's a FEE cyclists and Eco warrior hippy beatnik drivers do NOT pay... We do? NOT have a wear and tear tax in this country, so any comments on road wear and tear are irrelevant.. Our roads service everybody even if you're housebound you still depend on the roads for basic needs..

No pay.. No say...

[b]KidMoeMoe[/b]:

VED is a tax on emissions. It's really not a difficult concept to understand. Pushbikes and electric? vehicles do not emit CO2, and so don't pay VED.

VED is not, in any way whatsoever, a fee to use the roads, no matter how many tortured metaphors you come up with. If it was, everyone who uses the roads would pay it, emissions or not.

[b]1CuppaCharr[/b]:
You have been tricked by the government... VED is NOT a tax on Co2 emissions... VED is a direct road USAGE fee...

1,..A company rep? in a Prius clocks up 50,000 miles in a year

2,..A sunday driver in a Range Rover only clocks up 500 miles in a year..

Who produces the most Co2 emissions?...

It's the VED exempt Prius isn't it.... Proving once and for all that VED is NOT a tax on emissions...

No pay... No say....

[b]GrahamStw[/b]:

Yep &? those extra miles/emissions are taxed by all the extra fuel duty the Prius driver will pay.

Car tax/VED is a "nudge tax". It is intended to make people think about CO2 when choosing a car and "nudge" them towards lower emissions.

Still, call it whatever you like. Paying it doesn't give you any more rights than any other road users.

Cyclists are not "riding roughshot [sic] over taxdisc displaying drivers".

They are people, like you, just trying to get to their destination safely.

[b]1CuppaCharr[/b]:

A "nudge tax" now... Ho Ho.. Stuff and nonsense.. VED is a cleverly disguised road USAGE fee.. And you're right, LEGALLY cyclists have the same rights as motorists, but MORALLY the have no rights at all... Drivers contribute more than £50 billion to the treasury per anum from driving alone.. Cyclists contribute..... Nothing...

No pay... No? say....

[b]GrahamStw[/b]:

Well I suppose £50 billion is a lot of money. How many cyclists do you? think you should be allowed to paralyse or kill for that?

That IS your point isn't it? Cyclists "don't pay" so they should put driver convenience before their personal safety; placing themselves at greater risk of injury or death, rather than causing a driver to slow down slightly or change lanes?

(By the way cycling is worth a few billion per annum to the UK economy too - but I'm sure you'll dismiss that for some reason).

[b]1CuppaCharr[/b]:
Cycling is a choice... Nobody is forcing you to place yourself in danger by cycling on our roads...Unlike cars, vans, buses, lorrys etc, bicycles are NONE essential vehicles. Cyclists cycle at their own risk. It's NOT fair? to blame PAYING drivers (who wisely protect themselves inside the safety of an enclosed vehicle) if you come to grief on your fllimsy pushbike. Cyclists do NOT pay for the USE of the roads. So why on earth should drivers kowtow to them..

No pay... No say....

[b]GrahamStw[/b]:

Do you use the same logic to justify endangering pedestrians as well? After? all walking is a choice; they should be in a car eh? The nerve of them, holding up PAYING cars while they cross they road.

I don't "blame" drivers. Or ask them to "kowtow" to me.

I just ask them to drive safely and respect the safety of other road users, including drivers.

Nobody forces me to cycle. I happen to enjoy it. It's a good way to get some exercise when I'd otherwise be stuck in my car. You should try it!

[b]1CuppaCharr[/b]:

What kind of idiot walks on the road? Pedestrians who cross at designated crossings have my full respect.. Just as cyclists who cycle to the extreme left of the road and don't complain about drivers also get my respect.. Cyclists do NOT pay to USE the road.. So they should behave like they do NOT pay.. If I rode a bike my face would be beetroot and I'd don my cap? and thank every taxdisc displaying driver I came across.

No pay... No say...

[b]GrahamStw[/b]:

Only crossing on foot at designated crossing points? So is? that what you do is it? Good luck to you. I couldn't leave my own street following that "rule". I suppose the Green Cross Code is just another beatnik hippy government conspiracy is it?

As for cycling in the gutter. No thanks. My own safety (and yours) is worth far more to me than your "respect".

I mean, imagine if there was an accident and you ended up in hospital. You'd be beetroot and doffing your cap to all the private patients. 🙂

[b]1CuppaCharr[/b]:

The Green Cross Code... I'm glad you mentioned that.. You see when a pedestrian USES The Green Cross Code they are in effect kowtowing to? the valiant taxdisc displaying drivers.. Which is fine.. As Happentpenko here demonstrates riding in the gutter is perfectly safe... All I'm asking for is a little bit if respect and humility from those who choose NOT to PAY to USE the road..It's NOT much to ask, is it?

No pay... No say...

[b]GrahamStw[/b]:

Happentpenko here demonstrates that riding in the gutter on a roundabout is a *ng terrible idea, as testified to by the 89 people (including non-cyclists) who have disliked this video and taken the time to explain why.

You may not give much of a about my life, or people in general, but you should at least consider that me riding in the gutter vastly increases the likelihood that you won't spot me and scratch up your? nice Mercedes with my internal organs and the pointy bits on my bike.

[b]1CuppaCharr[/b]:

Eco warrior hippy beatnik drivers are cheating the system.. They are stealing from everybody.. You see when Churchill? abolished actual "road tax" (and tricked drivers into PAYING an emissions based tax) he didn't anticipate the mainstream USE of Eco warrior hippy beatnic cars.... It's because of cyclists like you, and Eco warrior hippy beatnik drivers ( trying to save a quick buck by not PAYING fuel duty or VED) that the national debt is spiraling out of control...

No pay... No say...

[b]GrahamStw[/b]:

What on earth are you on about now 1CuppaChar?

Churchill abolished the? hypothecation of the road fund license in 1937, but the tax itself still existed.

Basing VED on CO2 emissions was introduced in 2005 with the express aim of nudging people towards cleaner engines - so to say that effect wasn't anticipated is complete and utter nonsense.