as of May 15, 2018, EWS team ranking:

http://www.enduroworldseries.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Enduro-World-Series_team_r3.pdf

#1 Canyon

#2 ibis

#3 Cube

#4 Chain Reaction Cycles Mavic (Nukeproof bikes)

#5 Yeti

EWS 2018: still early in the game. Only 3 of 8 rounds finished yet. Open: if there is an statistical correlation of these team rankings and the “racing” quality (not the “fun quality”!) of the Enduro bikes. Personally suspect… – yes there is indeed an correlation!

For me: fun is key for mountain biking. Don’t have an Enduro, don’t race…don’t plan to buy an Enduro bike…

“Personally suspect… – yes there is indeed an correlation!”

Correlation does not imply causation

No, there is a link between fast racers, good luck and winning. There is also a budget thing of getting 2 or 3 riders up there at the pointy end of things, and a bit of not smashing your collar bone too.

More here

@trail_rat:

“Personally suspect… – yes there is indeed an correlation!”

Correlation does not imply causation

Correct.

In other words: we agree that there is indeed and correlation?

Good.

Andreas, give it up man.

So the Nukeproof has won 2 out of 3, The Yeti has won the most recent round (and didn’t Rude make a bit of a mess of Chile?) and sit in 4th and 5th. The Commencal has won all 3 women’s and doesn’t break the top 5. (I know the female points are reduced to reflect the reduced number of competitors). Does this mean giving a bike and a plane ticket to a load of top 30 contenders is a better way to get to the top than shelling out big money for a top name?

On the topic of fun: in the big but pedallable bike world*, I’m going to say fun is bike parks, jumps in the woods, alpine holiday, big mountain day

Based on the bikes I’ve seen while doing these, I would put the following brands at the most popular:

Nukeproof

Commencal

Canyon

YT

Orange (more in UK than Europe)

The big names – Trek, Spesh etc seem to go more with the racing/speed lot. But may be a bit chicken/egg.

*obviously if your idea of fun is a multiday bike pack, long distance xc, or winning a DH race, this doesn’t apply.

indeed but as the saying would suggest – that just because data correlates does not mean that is the cause.

I mean for me to say that Calibre racing team don’t feature there because they are not any good is wrong even if the data suggests that they are not there therefore they must be no good .

They dont feature there because there isnt(as far as im aware) a calibre race team .

@ ayjaydoubleyou:

Absolutely correct!

What you write about Commencal: this is exactly the reason why the team ranking works so well. The Commencal thing is pretty much what happens to Sam Hill / Nukeproof. The statistics indicate “top biker” but maybe not the “top bike” (here: in the meaning of speed)? Interesting – or?

And yes – Commencal builds fantastic bikes. Maybe the most “fun bikes”. You are right. The EWS team ranking doesn’t give any conclusion about “fun”.

The EWS team ranking might be only an help for those which look for a fast racing Enduro bike.

Example: ibis 2017 team ranking #1. Now – current ranking #2.

Pretty clear: the ibis Enduro bikes are an excellent pick when “speed” is key.

YT interesting there…: 2017 #1 in UCI downhill racing. With the Tues CF. YT tried very shortly EWS Enduro …without luck (very bad team rankings). The Capra might be one of the “fun” Enduros – but not the fastest?

Nothing bad about it!

I like this discussion! Great!

Exactly – you need to take the sponsored bikes out of the equation. Otherwise what would you draw from the fact that Cotic and Bird team riders that do very well on the UK domestic scene but never seem to even enter an EWS race? The HB160 did well at Peatys downhill, but was nowhere to be seen in Losinj.

Can someone with a lot of free time dig out the fastest unsponsored (or non bike sponsored) riders from each international race in every discipline?

@trail_rat:

Haha. Great.

I love my Calibre Bossnut V2. Nothing at all wrong with it! Fun is key. I’am a trail biker…

The EWS team rankings allow – of course – only a statement about the teams (bikes) which participate in EWS.

Good point.

only a statement that is meaningless? Did all the teams use the same bikes in all of the rounds?

@ayjaydoubleyou:

I would argue differently.

Cotic and Bird have the chance to grow. If those companies have great Enduro bikes they will – sooner or later – participate in EWS on a bigger scale (I hope at least). That’s key.

I see EWS as an huge chance for companies like Cotic and Bird. Best example is Canyon. Fairly young company – and they used international races to design faster (Enduro) bikes … and now they are in current EWSA team ranking #1.

Those races helped them. And Canyon is not the big, fat, rich company!

If fast Enduro bikes are the goal / international success in selling fast Enduro bikes: EWS is open for Cotic and Bird. EWS can help them in a big way.

@mikewsmith:

Good point. If you dig into the EWS information you will find this information.

Usefull stuff about the bikers and their bikes.

Most professional EWS bikers have their bikes posted privately as well.

Usefull stuff

Not really just stuff, but it’s good to have an obsession

Well I like race results, because I can say I have the most succesful EWS race bike of all time. And it probably always will be, because of model years etc.

When does Ravenel overtake T-Mo then? (means I have the most winningest bike and I can retire)

@Northwind

Well I like race results, because I can say I have the most succesful EWS race bike of all time. And it probably always will be, because of model years etc.

At least one happy biker!

I’am not so lucky. Don’t have an Canyon, ibis, Cube, Nukeproof, Yeti – Enduro…

Don’t have an Enduro at all…

But this EWS will guide to better bikes. In the long run this will trickly down also for our trail bikes…(adding to the “speed” the “fun part”…?)

Good for all uf us!

Surely completely missing the point that it’s the rider not the bike that goes fast.

The most winningest team is the one with the deepest pockets for the fastest riders. You could put Hill on a Calibre and he’d probably still win.  That’s the reason Bird, Cotic, Nicolai, Orange etc aren’t on the list, they can’t pay Hill, Moseley or anyone else’s wages.

All that having been said, Peaty was dominant for a long time on Orange and nowhere on the V10 for a number of years. It would be a difficult argument to make that the Patriot/222/223/224 was a better bike than the V10, but it obviously suited Peaty (and it did have the fact it was incredibly light going for it in the days pre carbon).

Mikewsmith wrote,

When does Ravenel overtake T-Mo then?

Pretty soon I think but she’s done it on different model bikes (now on the 29er I think too). Whereas Tmo just got on her Remedy, which wasn’t even supposed to be #enduro, and kept going- she won her last EWS season on one after it was discontinued 🙂

Recon yt will throw money at a team next year. Would be quite an achievement to have the top dh and top enduro bike for the season.

@thisisnotaspoon:

Surely completely missing the point that it’s the rider not the bike that goes fast.

The most winningest team is the one with the deepest pockets for the fastest riders. You could put Hill on a Calibre and he’d probably still win.

Yes. But “statistics” work.

Hill bikes Nukeproof? Current team is not #1 …!

ibis in 2017 #1 and now #2 (current EWS team ranking). There is no “Hill” in the ibis team (o.k. – but all the ibis bikers are fantastic. That’s true for sure).

Deepest pockets: current, 2018 team ranking #1 is Canyon. According to you Canyon is the player with the deepest pockets? Doubt it. Canyon is a mid sized company with around 700 employees.

Ibis 2017 EWS team ranking #1: according to “owler.com” estimated number of employees is 60 …! (sounds very low. Maybe you have better numbers? I’am not an ibis expert. Just googled it)

If these numbers are roughly right: not the deepest pockets decide. There are much, much bigger players in the field.

My Calibre Bossnut V2: very neat bike. But even a Hill won’t win on the Bossnut V2. It would fall apart after 10 minutes EWS racing I suspect.

Yes. But “statistics” work.

Where are your statistics, results are not stats or not at least any that would stand up any kind of scrutiny…

Deepest pockets: current, 2018 team ranking #1 is Canyon. According to you Canyon is the player with the deepest pockets? Doubt it. Canyon is a mid sized company with around 700 employees.

That makes them pretty mahoosive by bike company standards. They’ve been growing their revenue by 20-30% year on year and currently at $180m.

Specialized by comparison employs 580 and turns over $490m.

OK so they’re under half the size of specialized, but for a brand that doesn’t sell in the USA (which is about half the global market) that’s impressive.

I really don’t understand your argument. What if the bottom rank ews team signed say the top three riders and kept the same bike. Then surprise surprise they started winning and became the top ranked team!?

Or when the Athertons swapped from Commencal, to GT to Trek, Rachel kept winning but Gee didn’t

Cotic and Bird have the chance to grow. If those companies have great Enduro bikes they will – sooner or later – participate in EWS on a bigger scale (I hope at least). That’s key.

We’ve actually won a round (U23 Womens @ Finale last year), but to be honest it will be a while before we’re back. EWS is cool but its just a show ultimately. What counts for us is grass roots racing or events like Sea Otter or Tweedlove where we can get to meet more people and engage. Being a bit part in an EWS is about as financially useful for us as a chocolate teapot. Its good fun, good experience, good testing, but its not good business. Hopefully though if the continental thing works out we can be more involved in that.

@benpinnick:

EWS is cool but its just a show ultimately. What counts for us is grass roots racing or events like Sea Otter or Tweedlove where we can get to meet more people and engage. Being a bit part in an EWS is about as financially useful for us as a chocolate teapot. Its good fun, good experience, good testing, but its not good business. Hopefully though if the continental thing works out we can be more involved in that.

Neat post. Like that. There are “obstacles” to participate in EWS. Yes. Risks. And the question “when to try the entry” without endangering the – still small – business.

But you menstion also some advantages. If “fast Enduro bikes” will be a big part of your future business and if you like to grow… EWS is the tool. First year or first two years will be frustrating – but if you use the feedback from EWS in a very clever way you will quickly gain!

@thisisnotaspoon:

about “Canyon”

That makes them pretty mahoosive by bike company standards. They’ve been growing their revenue by 20-30% year on year and currently at $180m.

Specialized by comparison employs 580 and turns over $490m.

OK so they’re under half the size of specialized, but for a brand that doesn’t sell in the USA (which is about half the global market) that’s impressive.

Yes – impressive. Good numbers. Thanks. And in fact I think Canyon started just (2017 ?) an assembly plant in the US. Specialized is very nervous about this…

But Canyon is a fantastic example how a company used the racing circus to improve their bikes. They use “racing” plus “testing” plus “engineering” like a “closed loop” to improve the Enduro bikes. It’s just wrong that the “bike doesn’t matter”. Companies like Canyon and Fox use EWS racing to get better every year.

Companies which are not willing to participate, not willing to understand won’t have a competitive Enduro product in x years. For sure.

ibis: and this company is the best example that a very, very small company is able to lead the EWS team ranking. As long as their bikes are top notch. Possible that the RIPMO and MOJO are the fastest Enduro bikes right now? EWS helps them. #1 or #2 in team ranking all the time. Means also they can sell their bikes for the big bucks. If they only invest part of this money in R&D and EWS racing this kind of “machine” will keep on going. Cranking out better and better bikes. Getting feedback from top bikers. All without a Sam Hill and without being a big, fat company (ibis around 60 employees?).

@andreasrhoen did you know it costs you £5000 just to have a ‘team’ which fundamentally gets you very little other than a guarantee of being able to buy some entries, a modest space in the tech pits and your sponsors name on the results sheet. I mean seriously… you have to pay to have your name against the rider’s on the results. Thats not to say I don’t like the EWS, I do and I follow it. When we won one I can tell you I was pretty damn happy that day, but its just terrible value for money unless you want to go all in (Whole series, gold+ sponsor, top riders etc.).

I don’t think you can equate EWS participation to great bikes either. There’s plenty of mediocre bikes doing well at the EWS, and plenty of good ones doing less so as they don’t have the rider’s to extract the maximum from the bike. A lot of the companies are only there because the companies they work with who supply their parts agree to sponsor the team via a rebate on their annual spend, so its basically free money to blow on racing. If that mechanism didn’t exist a lot of these factory teams would disappear overnight I am sure.

Its all a balance of cost. I could send 1 rider to an EWS, or for the same money do like I did last weekend and get 2 together in Peebles to smash out 4 days on EWS standard tracks for much less money and without the associated ‘other’ EWS costs…. I know what I would rather do 😉

Is the biking race scene even big enough to influence people who wander into a bike shop just wanting a mountain bike?

Sure on the road in the TDF you’ve got Specialized, Canyon etc.. but I don’t see many boardmans but I saw plenty of them on the sportive I did at the weekend.

Is the biking race scene even big enough to influence people who wander into a bike shop just wanting a mountain bike?

Probably not the OP who is banging on about it bought a Calibre 😉

and just to add to what Ben has put that is the tip of the iceberg costs!! for the 2017 season you need to fly from home to NZ and put yourself up in Rotorua during Crankworx – quick tip most accommodation will be getting booked up for 2019 already, then a flight from Roto to Auckland to Sydney or Melbourne before heading to Launceston or Hobart, hire a car/camper for a week – 90% of the accommodating within 50 miles will be booked by now, finish up fly back to Europe and get out to Maderia no idea about accommodation on the island there, road trip ireland and Millau to keep your costs down, then double bill of Aspen – it’s not cheap so it’s flights to the US then into the local airport $$$ then up to Whistler for the really cheap week of crankworx before 6 weeks back at home and down to Finale….

Multiply that by 4 to get 3 riders and one support guy and you have a very basic team, on top of that your riders need to be fresh for races (seats nearer the front of the plane) need to recharge, need to train and probably go home a few times in the middle…

The investment for 1 season is huge if you can get away with just booking hold luggage!

I think the reason Canyon are doing well in the team rankings, is because they have more riders. More riders = more points. Yeti only have two team riders, CRC Nukeproof have three riders, while Canyon have four and Cube have five.

I honestly don’t think there is a bad bike in the series, it’s just whether you get on with a particular bike, and feel confident on it to go fast.

Aye, and its down to luck & rider form more than the bike I would say. For example Cube have allegedly made their bike much better this year after feedback from the EWS, but their top rider Greg is currently averaging 16th place this year vs 2nd place after 3 rounds last year. Do we think the bike isn’t actually better? Probably not. Do we think that Greg is probably not on the form he was last year? Quite likely. Did he have a dose of luck too last year (or rather not the bad luck of others)? Yup.

Do the frames/bikes that privateer riders use contribute to the overall manufacturers standings?

Just thinking that as Canyon provide a decent bike at a decent price it’s probably quite a popular choice.

Do the frames/bikes that privateer riders use contribute to the overall manufacturers standings?

Nope, those are the factory team rankings, nothing more than that

It’s a bike like trying to link

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/what-people-are-riding-whistler-opening-weekend-2016.html

with the world cup/champs/team results

Think Ben has hit the nail on the head   ^^^

Aye, and its down to luck & rider form more than the bike I would say

In the French one at the weekend 461 riders started and 129  DNF, thats a staggering amount, mostly from crashes or mechanicals. Some didnt start due to problems they had in practice.

Im still trying to get my head around what a race Enduro bike is and what a fun bike is.

Diary of one rider and one bike

3rd May. See Physio re broken collar bone. Get home from Uni, borrow car, ride in local woods.

4th May Borrow car, ride in Peak with mates for a catch up and BBQ

5th May Steel City DH

6th May Borrow car, dissapear for days riding with mates

7th May Ride up onto Cutgate with mum and dad

8th May Borrow car and ride in Peak, pack bike and clothing

9th May Fly out to France

10th May EWS practice

11th May EWS practice

12th May EWS race

13 May EWS race

14th May Fly home, build bike back up.

15th May Borrow car and ride with mates in Wharcliffe

Today. See Physio. There is a good chance she will be out riding after

Like the majority of riders out there, its their race bike, their fun bike, their everyday bike and even their pub bike

@tracey after what I saw in Whistler a bit of time on the champagne cork popping training wouldn’t go a miss 😉

Very good discussion. Like it!

I don’t think you can equate EWS participation to great bikes either. There’s plenty of mediocre bikes doing well at the EWS, and plenty of good ones doing less so as they don’t have the rider’s to extract the maximum from the bike.

All true. All not perfect. But EWS in my view a huge chance for a bike company! And a huge risk as well. Correct.

Im still trying to get my head around what a race Enduro bike is and what a fun bike is.

Good question. Possible that for Enduro “race quality” equals “fun quality”? I don’t have an Enduro bike…

For example Cube have allegedly made their bike much better this year after feedback from the EWS, but their top rider Greg is currently averaging 16th place this year vs 2nd place after 3 rounds last year. Do we think the bike isn’t actually better? Probably not. Do we think that Greg is probably not on the form he was last year? Quite likely. Did he have a dose of luck too last year (or rather not the bad luck of others)? Yup.

Correct. But that’s the reason I think the TEAM RANKING still works. Cube is #3 right now. And this with all the bad luck Greg had this year (or good luck last year). This indicates at least that the new Carbon 29 er Enduro is a very good bike. These single incidents “average” out in the team ranking? That’s at least my idea…

Probably not the OP who is banging on about it bought a Calibre

Correct. My trail bike is an Calibre Bossnut V2. No influence of EWS for buying this bike. Clear.

But without mountain bike races over the last xx years the Bossnut V2 wouldn’t be such a good bike. Yes – Calibre is a young company and wasn’t in those races. But they learnt from the development – from those other companies. This race stuff trickles down to our bikes. (If the engineers are smart!)

And: the more bike companies engage in those “EWS type” events the quicker the development will be? That’s at least my hope.

Part of the game as well: to get very talented bikers a full time Job. The bikers in the “teams” have a full time Job and are able to feed the engineers of the bike companies with information / feedback. That’s very important I guess.

So: is it IMPORTANT to be in EWS team ranking the #1? Maybe. Maybe not.

Do we get better bikes if the companies are involved in EWS and strive for the #1 team ranking?

For sure – YES.

So which of these is a race bike and which is a fun bike or is it just better to try and not to categarise

that the hell is a trail bike for that matter ?