[Closed] Chinese carbon frames....

To be honest, for £230 I would go to On-One and buy a nice steel frame or even a scandal.
There are carbon frames that are good and there are carbon frames. I wouldn't be happy on a cheap carbon frame.
I have never owned one so can not offer direct feedback but have owned an Inbred and a Scandal and rate them highly.

My point of view is that it is a bit of a gamble. There are plenty of arguments for and against, but without the ability to pop back and have a chat, it's a gamble.
I feel that if you can afford to lose the money if it goes pear shaped (this includes breakages too), then go for it. If money is a bit tight go for something from a bit closer to home, [url= http://www.pipedreamcycles.com/sirius_wmtb_review.pdf ]Pipedream for example.[/url]
EDIT: I am equally happy with my Orbea Alma and my Pipedream Sirius. 😀

I wouldn't ride a cheap unbranded bike from China regardless of whatever it was made of.
I don't mind paying for the extensive testing that big brands do to their bikes.
[url= http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2011/08/are-all-carbon-bikes-created-equal/ ]This article[/url] is an interesting read on the subject.

Cheers, but already have steel and ally frames... on one looks good but £399, not £230...

So????????

no you buy an expensive branded frame that came from china instead

article = bollocks

I've looked at these in the past, as I'm a frame whore, but would rather save up the extra for some uk people to shout at if it breaks!

i have no problem with the manufacturing quality (as they make frames for the big names) but the geometry may not be the best which is the problem.

As above - if you are on a budget look at On One, Merlin, CRC etc for a half decent, warrantied, reputable steel or alloy frame IMO.

Have been riding a road trek copy for about a year and can't complain. Needed a bit of tidying up / finishing around the head tube but reckon that's par for the course.

Gamble? Maybe, would have been interesing if it had turned up broken, but what are the odds? Had read a lot of would'nt touch with a barge pole comments but mostly I reckon they are compensating for some anxiety disorder.

My dad brought 1 of them frames, the bonding that holds the seat post collar in snapped so the seat post wobble the bb insert creaked, the headset didnt fit in properly and sat to far out the cups. Serously spend abit more and get a carbon 456 from on one or a whippet.

I think Njee20 used to have a carbon frame off Ebay from China and he survived to tell the tale, try asking him?

Just because it's carbon doesn't mean it's good ! How much does it weigh ? It's probably laid up so thick that it's almost solid just to compensate for the low quality materials.

Its not laid up thick at all its very light indeed but when you see 1 in person you realise why.

no you buy an expensive branded frame that came from china instead

Think about it.
Who makes the carbon frames for, let's say, On-One?
On-One? I doubt it, they're probably made in China.
How many factories are there in China making carbon frames? Why not pop over to [url= http://www.alibaba.com/ ]Alibaba[/url] and have a look?
Which of these factories are the good ones?
This is the easy part, I could tell you, but it'll cost. 😀
And this will be just one of the reasons why On-One will charge you just a little bit more than buying direct, warranty being another, etc.
Like I said if you can afford the stake, go for it.
When I decide which route I'll take for my next road bike, I'm sure buying direct from China will be up there.

Plenty of experience over on mtbr

http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/chinese-carbon-29er-640919.html

Yep, I had one, and would definitely buy another. Lighter than claimed, well finished, rode nicely. My sole complaint was with the geometry - it had a short top tube, but that's my fault for not checking more carefully.

Sold mine to a friend, still going fine AFAIK. Only sold it as my FS ended up being lighter and the sponsors didn't like me racing an unbranded bike instead of my team one!

if you want to know which factories are the good ones thats easy.

go on then ?

 

Finish the quote old boy...
That'll cost you.
I've got flights to arrange, a couple of hotels, tansport etc....
Where do I send the bill?

thats pretty funny .

when it snaps, and you land on your face, and you are eating your dinner through a straw wouldnt you just wish you paid for something from a reputable and trusted company? how good can it be for that money? its like those cheap chinese 4x4's which visually are 4x4's but dont even register with encap safety ratings....

I assume you're talking about [url= http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article567349.ece ]only one manufacturer[/url] from [url= http://www.alibaba.com/countrysearch/CN/4x4.html ]many[/url], rather than making a sweeping generalisation and scaremongering, munkyboy?
P.S. Don't eat eggs, they're bad for you.

I saw your frame njee you had a diffirent 1 to the 1 he posted i belive . Trust me on this 1 its worth not taking the risk on the guy will only warrant the frame for 6 month's as well

ciderinsport - Member

Cheers, but already have steel and ally frames

If you already have a few frames why buy some cheap POS with unknown design/engineering ?
If you really must have carbon for a low price buy a used Giant XTC or similar. But you still have the risk it will fail or is already damaged.

Why must you have a carbon frame ?

i am in no way slagging chinese manufacturing - they do most high end products these days (all the SC carbon frames are chinese i think?). it is just that they also do the low end stuff too. you just need to know what you are buying into that is all.

it is just that they also do the low end stuff too. you just need to know what you are buying into that is all.

its easy to spot the cheap stuff it says 12k carbon after it

its well known that a sticker makes all carbon frames infinity better, this sticker will cost you a couple of hundred pounds and is available from all well known bike brands.

It depends wholly on where the frames have come from, and by that I mean the factory and not the country.

I've no problem buying a frame sourced from anywhere, provided that it's durable and does what it says on the box. It's easy to judge the geometry, but durability is something that you have to take on trust. If the frame dies the week after and the seller denies all knowledge of you, you're pretty much screwed.

That would be at the forefront of my mind when buying an unbranded frame from the net...

Not read all the responses in detail, but have you factored in the VAT and UK Import Duty?

This item will be above the radar, so unlikely you will avoid it.

One of the reasons not to buy bulk from Taiwan...the discounts never exceed the potential tax.

I would be very interested to hear more...

PaulD

I bought a road frame from here: http://dengfubikes.com/product.asp?classid=23

They do mtb frames aswell (much nicer than the ones in your link)

The frame seems ok, its hasnt broken yet, its nice and light and nice and stiff and it was easy to assemble. No VAT or import duty charged.

Try here aswell http://www.hongfu-bikes.com/e_products/?big_id=5

I also didn't pay any tax and import duty on mine.

I'd be more confident in an MTB than a road bike, but frankly I'd use a road bike too. The Deng Fu ones are highly regarded.

its easy to spot the cheap stuff it says 12k carbon after it

I assume you're joking? Or are older Scott frames to be avoided because they're cheap?!

If I were going to go for a carbon frame, it'd be something like a Giant, Spesh or Trek, or from a composites specialist.

I'd not chance my front teeth on a carbon frame from any of the small brands. I doubt any of them have the expertise or cash to test frames as rigorously as the big brands, or audit their suppliers anywhere near as often.

Do you not think these Chinese companies selling frames by the thousand could just be 'composite specialists'?

I'd not chance my front teeth on a carbon frame from any of the small brands. I doubt any of them have the expertise or cash to test frames as rigorously as the big brands,

[img] [/img]

Do you not think these Chinese companies selling frames by the thousand could just be 'composite specialists'?

They are. As a brand / retailer, you don't really want to be in a position where you're at a big disadvantage in terms of knowledge compared to the supplier. That's basically the situation most small brands will be in, because these aren't commodities that meet a standard spec. If you had ex aero or F1 composites bods doing all the specification, then you've got a degree of confidence that they know what they're doing.

Have a look at what Spesh do:
[url= http://www.specialized.com/bc/microsite/fact/testing.html ]http://www.specialized.com/bc/microsite/fact/testing.html[/url]

Then pop round to my house and I'll show you an inbred with the disc mount welded on in the wrong place. The R&D and QC isn't in the same league...

tron- the marketeers dream.

You know Njee the jury's still out on this on are they composites specialists? They employ some very bright people who for their knowledge would earn quite a bit of money if they were in the right environment .however I have also ssen them make what can be classed as schoolboy errors and try to get away with the bare minimum so no I wouldn't say specialist in the true sense of the term and whilst some of them do only specialise in bikes you will also see them trying their hand at other carbon products too. Tthey do learn as they go along however

No I'm not joking about 12k

It's not like China and the Far East are newcomers to manufacturing.. I challenge you to find 5 objects within a 10 foot radius of where you are sitting that [i]aren't[/i] manufactured in the Orient.. (not literally but you know what I'm getting at)

what's confusing me is.. why did On-One's C456 end up looking so.. err.. 'special', when there's obviously some really quite attractive looking bikes being made in China like the examples on the Deng Fu website..?

Seems odd to just want a "carbon" frame, rather than one with a certain geometry and features.

In many respects, it's not about marketing. It's simply not economical for a small firm to put the same time and money into R&D, testing and QA as a large firm if they're going to hit the same sorts of price points.

The major thing to be aware of here is that there's a huge information inequality - the layman buyer (either the end consumer or the specifier at the bike firm) cannot easily assess the quality of what they're buying. The manufacturer will always try to maximise return and that can mean cutting costs. As consumers, we generally aren't in possession of the specialist knowledge required, and so we pass that task onto the bike firm. If the bike firm don't have that knowledge, you're stuffed...

double post...

In many respects, it's not about marketing. It's simply not economical for a small firm to put the same time and money into R&D, testing and QA as a large firm if they're going to hit the same sorts of price points.

The major thing to be aware of here is that there's a huge information inequality - the layman buyer (either the end consumer or the specifier at the bike firm) cannot easily assess the quality of what they're buying. The manufacturer will always try to maximise return and that can mean cutting costs. As consumers, we generally aren't in possession of the specialist knowledge required, and so we pass that task onto the bike firm. If the bike firm don't have that knowledge, you're stuffed...

There's me thinking buying far eastern products direct were cheap cos far east labour and materials are cheap.

Where do you think the big firms get their manufacturing done and how much do you reckon they pay? Or are you saying they have their own locked down factories and staff, with the excluesive rights to quality.

Also what personal experiences are you basing this on?

No I'm not joking about 12k

So you'd write off the Scott Spark, Scale and Genius as cheap because of the cosmetic layer they use? Corking logic, well done! Despite their strident testing.

What about a Chinarello frame with a 1k finish? Is that better quality?

Ask Flow- after all he knows for a fact that the Carbon 456 is ordered out of a catalogue (because it's obvious innit, think about it, eh?) If you ask him nicely I'm sure he'll tell you somewhere you can order it cheaper 😉

Kind of interested in[url= http://www.e-hongfu-bikes.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68&products_id=274 ]this[/url]

It looks a lot like[url= http://www.mountainflyermagazine.com/view.php/tested-jackal-k9-29er.html ]this[/url]

Unfortunately no geom info on the hongfu website that I could find.

I actually think the C456 is quite attractive as far as carbon frames go, it's just the unpleasant belled head tube and curvy downtube/headtube area that puts me off. But one thing to note is that structural frame design for composites is VASTLY different from frame design for metals - the materials need to be carefully aligned to take the loads and some extra "features" are a must to compensate for composite's "negatives", hence a lot of composite bikes look a bit odd compared to their metallic siblings. It's a sign of reasonable design knowledge behind it (or a dodgy designer, but I give benefit of the doubt!).

Unfortunately no geom info on the hongfu website that I could find.

http://forums.mtbr.com/7744970-post334.html

Cube allegedly sticker up Hongfu frames, they certainly look identical.

i used to have a JBC lightning - made in china...
and would def buy another, branded or unbranded.

For those mocking the 'cosmetic' layer - it actually has a purpose - UD (unidirectional) carbon is structurally superior but more susceptible to impact. The 'cosmetic' weave layer does, in some peoples opinions (not mine) look nice but it is there as it can be more robust. There are other things you can do though.

Weave materials also behave very differently during curing as the thermal expansions and cure shrinkage changes. Not a huge issue on a bike frame but when you start building things that are 20, 30, 40+ metres long out of composites then you have to pay attention.

Ok.. after 24 hours of singletrack debate I am still not convinced one way or either...

I want a carbon frame cause I dont have one and the misses says says I have 2 hundred quid to spend on 'me'... 😀

I could just buy some hope brakes, but I am trying to 'maximise' 😀

What is your £200 dream (and that really is a max budget... 🙁 )

ps. I have a charge duster ss - ace and a (cough) merida alloy hardtail.... and thats it 😳

Also what personal experiences are you basing this on?

I work in a company that buys a lot of stuff from the far east. It's not about owning your own factory, employing your own staff etc. It's about understanding the economics of the situation. There are two major issues - information inequalities, as I mentioned above, and economies of scale.

Say you have two firms selling a frame that hits a £400 price point, one shifts 1000 units a year, one shifts 20000. I'm not in the bike trade, so these are all finger in the air numbers. The actual numbers themselves don't matter - it's how the maths works out that does.

If both firms spend 5% of of the sale price on the quality and warranty side of things, the small firm has a budget of £20k, the large firm has a budget of £400k. £20k will get you a buying trip, your CEN tests and some cash set aside for dealing with warranty claims. £400k pretty obviously goes a lot further, and the smart thing to do is to increase the quality and minimise your warranty costs. This saves you money as complaints are very expensive to deal with, and improves the perception of your product, improving sales.

This was pretty well demonstrated a while ago by a thread on warranty lengths. The warranty length matched pretty well with the size of the firm...

There are a whole load of other economies a larger firm can make that simply wouldn't be possible for a smaller one, and mean there's more room for quality. Your suppliers suddenly become far less keen to mess you about if you're 30% of their turnover.

Icetech brakes or 2x10 I reckon.

laugh or cry.

Tron... 2x10 no point! Brakes is the the option..

I love riding, and wil ride my charge duster ss whenever I can.... however, some times I need gears and this is where this discussion started - £200 ish on a carbon frame or not!!

Simples, yeh 😆

Still makes me chuckle that people think companies don't sticker up frames straight from a catalogue

there are supposedly only 60 of the carbon orange road bikes. I would have thought it'd be super expensive to get such a small number made as a one off so I'd say they are stickered up catalogue frames. does that sticker buy you better R&D? I doubt it.

Probably better R but not better D.

some of the chinese carbon frames have very 90s geometry.

[img] [/img]
Here is my Chinese MTB, it has just come back from a week in the Alps with my son, with the brakes cooked, wheels on the point of collapse, seals have gone on the forks and a brand new rear tyre worn out but the frame is showing no signs of damage.

That's because it's a 3k finish, so according to compositepro it's better quality than a Scale! 🙄

Njee, My road bike is 12k and that is over 3 years old now and just clocked up another 100k ride yesterday!

compositepro needs to change his forum name 😆

You cant educate pork fella.

Njee, My road bike is 12k and that is over 3 years old now and just clocked up another 100k ride yesterday!

Don't have to tell me - it was compositepro who linked finish to quality!

Where do UD finishes fit in, as that's what's most common these days?! My UD Madone SL is now 8 years old, and has done about 20000 miles!

I linked surface finish because it isn't surface finish its the entire layup the whole structure right there If you had half a clue and knew anything about moulding and layup you might just find out why a lot of frames using this type of construction fail so easily ,ITS THE CHEAP STUFF FOR BUILDING BIKES and even here in the UK its classed as a bulking fibre

Theres no point in explaining UD because there are many levels of that too just because a cheap frame uses UD you think its better or worse.
IT can be worse ,some of the fibres we use in frames now are mj60 google it then come back and tell me why that's so much stronger

I linked surface finish because it isn't surface finish its the entire layup the whole structure right there If you had half a clue and knew anything about moulding and layup you might just find out why a lot of frames using this type of construction fail so easily

Have you ever looked inside a frame? I cut up a Spark frame, and I can assure you that it's not 12k all the way through...

Theres no point in explaining UD because there are many levels of that too just because a cheap frame uses UD you think its better or worse

That doesn't even make sense! Most carbon frames these days (from the mass manufacturers) have a UD finish. Trek, Specialized, Scott etc, are you saying that these are entirely differently made to previous models with a 3k/12k finish?

to the OP: look out for a 2nd hand On One frame for about £200-250. No risk of customs charges etc. No warranty but if you break it then maybe on one will do you a deal on crash replacement?

Podge maybe its a spot-buy on existing stock then custom-stickered over? Gauge the response then buy more?

I'd be interested in a long travel carbon frame from China if anyones bought one recently.

There was a good article on no-name frames over on Cycling Tips the other day: http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2011/08/are-all-carbon-bikes-created-equal/

How is that a good article? It's just the opinions of a guy with a vested interest in disparaging no-name frames (as it states he's designed his own carbon frame which is for sale) speculating that factories in China may or may not be doing things properly, and not stating which ones.

fogliettaz can you remember where you got yours from?

just read the rest of the thread this is definitely not a stickered up deng fu http://www2.cube.eu/hard/hpc/elite-super-hpc-pro/

**** me if we want to jump on the buy em cheap wagon ill do the cad do the layup ask one of the taiwan factories and sell my own.

Or i could just make em here in the UK for similar money

From Cube's own website? They're not likely to put their hands up and say "yep, it's a £200 frame with our stickers on it" are they?

Hora, http://www.hongfu-bikes.com/html_products/MTB-Frame-242.html ask for Jenny, she generally responds via email very quickly.

that's an ace finish on that hongfu frame..

I guess it's possible that Cube employs a roomful of engineers and gives them CAD workstations, rapid prototyping 3D printers and a mighty armoury of test rigs just to show to visitors. But I suspect it's more likely that they do, in fact, design frames there 😉

no one said its not a nice finish I said 12k is shit and the cheapest way of padding out a frame

But you said it's not 'padding out a frame' you said:

it isn't surface finish its the entire layup the whole structure right there If you had half a clue and knew anything about moulding and layup you might just find out why a lot of frames using this type of construction fail so easily

Can you please provide evidence of frames with a 12k weave being more prone to failure than others? I will also ask again, have you actually cut a frame up and looked inside? Do you honestly think they look the same all the way through!?

You've also not addressed the other questions I asked: where does a UD finish fit into your world of finish/frame quality being directly proportional, and do you think companies who change the external appearance of their frame year on year are also totally changing their contstruction methods anually?