[Closed] Charlottesville

Feel a bit naughty for jumping in without reading every post. But seeing as am travelling around the area at the mo here's a few thoughts:
There was a programme like prevent but for Nazis. Only one of Trump's mates wife's shut it down.
People in this part of the world are lovely. But many of them are deeply misinformed. Some of them are Nazis (no, not alt-right, Nazis).
There is lots of misinformation, obfuscation, and opinion. There is less communication of fact and reason. Even my lefty Jewish father in law is sounding like a Trump supporter.
Trump is a lieing toe rag who refuses to condemn the Nazis. Even the Nazis agree with this statement.
Jeremy Corbyn has f all relevance to what's happening here.
Trump manages to make everything about him.
The what - about - ery on here is funny.
But:
Antifa is not the same but a different side of the coin from Nazis.
In very simple terms for the hard of thinking:
Nazis bad (even if they're just standing there silent).
Antifascists good.
Richard Spencer = Nazi, bad
Driving a car into people = terrorism, bad
Trying to excuse Trump, Spencer or terrorists = uhm, no

Yeah, just to be clear.
Violence by Nazis is not the same as violence against Nazis. There is a clear moral distinction.

Violence by Nazis is not the same as violence against Nazis. There is a clear moral distinction.

Its when you the definition of Nazis gets a bit blurred is when the body count goes up.

Not advocating Nazis, or fascists in general but when its generally accepted that you can 'punch a nazi' I would feel a bit uneasy about the direction that society is heading.
Lets do what the Germans do and just make that stuff illegal and let the law deal with it?

On what grounds should we ban him?
As I said earlier, holding unpopular opinions isn't grounds for censorship. That's a bad precedence to be setting.

As far as I'm aware there's no law or principle that obliges stw to provide a platform for hatred. Freedom of speech isn't the same as the right to be published wherever you wish.

Tough this FoS idea isn't it?

Maybe but it's not relevant. His right to speech is clear but nobody is obliged to publish what he says.

I think the only crime ninfan is guilty of is pouring it on a bit thick.

I engage with him the same way I do with Chekwk.

Which is the same way I do a dog with a bucket on it's head.

Bit harsh Jamie. Those dogs don't put the buckets on their own heads you know.

Just some light morning viewing...

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/paapb7/watch-vice-news-film-from-the-front-lines-in-charlottesville

[img] [/img]

Some anti fascist protesters, heading out to commit violence against nazis who were just minding their own business.

Fantastic set of tweets from the 82nd airborne division that i saw last night. One of the neo-nazi demonstraters had an 82nd airborne hat on, so the proceeded to give a history lesson around what they did during the liberation of Europe and that any idiot can buy a hat

Jamie - Member
I think the only crime ninfan is guilty of is pouring it on a bit thick.

He's pushing the Devil's Advocate stance as far as possible to make a point and to seek attention.

We get the point.
It's up to us how much attention we wish to give.

Violence by Nazis is not the same as violence against Nazis. There is a clear moral distinction.

😯 I hope that you are not a lawyer.

How many other categories could you substitute for [nazis] ?

Doc, no need to labour the point. What you want is very clear, the early morning posts are a give away

It's up to us how much attention we wish to give.

Very well said....and the evidence is extraordinary, isn't it.....almost obsessive 😉

teamhurtmore - Member
Violence by Nazis is not the same as violence against Nazis. There is a clear moral distinction.
I hope that you are not a lawyer.

How many other categories could you substitute for [nazis] ?

Doc, no need to labour the point. What you want is very clear, the early morning posts are a give away

I hope that you are not a lawyer.

How many other categories could you substitute for [nazis] ? Other groups seeking to segregate society, expel people from their homes, eliminate races and religious groups, those proposing the existence of a master race?

THM! no need to labour the point. What you want is very clear, the posts are a give away

Eliminate religious groups - how apt 😉

Doc, no need to labour the point. What you want is very clear

Gosh. An economist AND a mind reader!! It's almost like the Village People together in the same body!!

No don't ban ninfan. He's not breaking the rules and censoring people because you don't like what they say is a form of fascism itself.

I'm interested though ninfan. Do you agree with the President's statement that:

"... no matter the color of our skin, we all live under the same laws. We all salute the same great flag, and we are all made by the same almighty God. We must love each other, show affection for each other and unite together in condemnation of hatred, bigotry and violence. We must rediscover the bonds of love and loyalty that bring us together as Americans.

[b]Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans[/b]. We are a nation founded on the truth that all of us are created equal. We are equal in the eyes of our creator, we are equal under the law and we are equal under our constitution. Those who spread violence in the name of bigotry, strike at the very core of America."

that was yesterday. keep up.

when its generally accepted that you can 'punch a nazi' I would feel a bit uneasy about the direction that society is heading.

Hasn't it always been pretty much acceptable to punch Nazis? For me, the worrying trend is that it seems to be getting [i]less[/i] acceptable to punch them, which makes me worry about the direction that society is heading.

Other groups seeking to segregate society, expel people from their homes, eliminate races and religious groups, those proposing the existence of a master race

Replace 'race' with 'cult' and that describes Islamism perfectly, which despite continued denials is the REAL fascist threat we face, rather than a fringe bunch of rednecks waving flags.

Princess Diana is dead too

By Islamism, are you referring to the dangerous group of terrorists misrepresenting the teachings of a legitimate, mostly peaceful religion for their own violent ends?
Because I'll agree that they are as Fascist as any Nazi, I mean, they use the same tactics and seem to want pretty much the same thing (the extermination of all "others").

If it makes you feel better, I'll pledge to also punch Islamist extremists in the face too, in the interests of balance.

If it makes you feel better, I'll pledge to also punch [s]Islamist[/s] any extremists in the face too, in the interests of balance.

This.

that was yesterday. keep up.

Yes but there is some question on here over whether he is a nazi sympathiser or if he just likes to play Devil's Advocate to wind up "the lefties".

On the Trump thread there is a very similar theme: it is unclear if he actually likes Trump and thinks he is doing a good job or if he just likes winding up lefties.

So here is an interesting opportunity. The president he 'supports' has said that the groups he 'supports' are repugnant, unconstitutional, un-American and un-Godly.

Does ninfan agree?

rather than a fringe bunch of rednecks waving flags.

That's was the case until they got their man in the Whitehouse....

Very well said....and the evidence is extraordinary, isn't it.....almost obsessive

Slightly ironic from someone who left vowing never to return, but yes.
🙂

Personal opinion - ninfan has issues.
If trolling on here makes him feel better, so be it.
It's pointless trying to debate with him as he's not here for that, he just enjoys the conflict.

Ignore him and he'll seek attention somewhere else.

kimbers

That's was the case until they got their man in the Whitehouse....

So just to clarify, Republicans are Nazis?

Graham I would not ban Ninfan either i would encourage him to post what he actually believes

Of course typing things that are not true that you do not believe and are factually false just to get a reaction is not a breach of STW rules- though personally attacking a person who does this is.

Its not something so noble I would wheel out free speech to defend it
If he meant what he said you may well have a point.

YMMV

So just to clarify, Republicans are Nazis?

Yes. That's exactly what they meant.

No need to be glib Jamie. I think it's worthwhile to try and establish a distinction. Or connection.

So just to clarify, Republicans are Nazis?

just like g8 black block protesters are civil rights activists.

Here we go again.

If it makes you feel better, I'll pledge to also punch Islamist any extremists in the face too, in the interests of balance

How anyone 'feels' makes no bloody difference other than to delay addressing the threat.

jimjam - Member

So just to clarify, Republicans are Nazis?

That's at least the second time in this thread you've pretended people have said something they haven't. Is it just that you can't come up with a decent response to what's [i]actually[/i] been said?

http://newsthump.com/2017/08/16/red-skull-just-standing-up-for-free-speech-says-hydra-spokesman/

No need to be glib Jamie. I think it's worthwhile to try and establish a distinction. Or connection.

I think "distraction" was the word you were looking for.

Northwind

That's at least the second time in this thread you've pretended people have said something they haven't. Is it just that you can't come up with a decent response to what's actually been said?

Ok Northwind, I'm not pretending that anyone is saying something they aren't. I'm trying (obviously in a very flawed fashion) to understand where this spectrum of fascism starts and ends.

No need to be glib Jamie. I think it's worthwhile to try and establish a distinction. Or connection.

Now, now. Don't be protesting like a wilting Southern belle. No-one has equated Republicans with Nazis. It's on par with me saying, so just to clarify, the French have 3 penises? No one has suggested as such, and it serves only to derail the actual conversations being had.

But then you know that, you little tinker.

No-one has equated Republicans with Nazis

kimbers
they got their man in the Whitehouse....

"They" in this case was referring to a "fringe group of rednecks waving flags". (Can we just say they are Nazis for the sake of slightly clearer debate)

So "they" got their man into the whitehouse. IE a substantial portion of people who voted republican must have been Nazis?

Is this a fair statement?

Is this a fair statement?

No.
It is so badly wrong that it does start to appear to be an attempt to confuse matters.

dissonance

No.
It is so badly wrong that it does start to appear to be an attempt to confuse matters.

[i]A fringe group of flag waving rednecks (nazis) got their man into the Whitehouse. [/i]

Could you explain that sentence for me?

Most Trump voters are not Nazis, but most Nazis are Trump voters.

Clear enough?

Replace 'race' with 'cult' and that describes Islamism perfectly, which despite continued denials is the REAL fascist threat we face, rather than a fringe bunch of rednecks waving flags.

Despite the right being responsible for 75 percent of terrorism deaths in the US since 07?

fin25 - Member

Most Trump voters are not Nazis, but most Nazis are Trump voters.

Clear enough?

That's a nice throw away statement but it does nothing to explain how "they got their man into the whitehouse".

Are we saying that despite being a tiny group of people who aren't representative of most republicans, they were happy that they got someone in the whitehouse who they feel represents them?

Or are we saying that due to a concerted campaign effort by Neo Nazis and white supremacists they were able to convert a substantial amount of undecided voters to vote Trump and/or were able to dissuade young black males in swing states not to vote for Hilary? IE they proactively did something to effect that result or they represent a large enough numbers of voters to have effected the outcome.

I can take both meanings from it, but there's quite a difference in the statements.

what's throwaway about my statement, jimjam?

Oh no Ive always said that it was Putin that got their man in the whitehouse

fin25 - Member

what's throwaway about my statement, jimjam?

There's no substance to it. Unless you can tell me percentages then I feel like it's just another way to say Trump is a nazi.

kimbers - Member

Oh no Ive always said that it was Putin that got their man in the whitehouse

There's more truth in that statement imo.

jimjam - Member
So just to clarify, Republicans are Nazis?

nope, but I'd think it's fair to say the republicans have a nazi problem.

seosamh77

nope, but I'd think it's fair to say the republicans have a nazi problem.

Most Trump supporters are not nazis. 70% of them are not nazis.

jimjam - Member
seosamh77
nope, but I'd think it's fair to say the republicans have a nazi problem.

Most Trump supporters are not nazis. 70% of them are not nazis.

I have no idea, it just seemed like a good number.

kimbers - Member
Oh no Ive always said that it was Putin that got their man in the whitehouse

There's more truth in that statement imo.

There's no substance to it. Unless you can tell me percentages then I feel like it's just another way to say Trump is a [s]nazi[/s] [b]Russian Patsy[/b]

See what I did there?

jimjam - Member
I have no idea, it just seemed like a good number.

I'm interested though ninfan. Do you agree with the President's statement

yes

I think I've been very clear that the issue is freedom of speech, freedom of belief, and freedom of protest, ought to be absolute (within the caveat of the laws preventing direct incitement to violence, criminal damage and protecting the rights of others, and applied fairly and without favour). Nazis have just as much right to protest as Jews, communists, gays or muslims, none of them have the right to threaten or arrack others,

Despite the right being responsible for 75 percent of terrorism deaths in the US since 07?

What's so special about 2007? Sounds a lot like the type of cherry picking climate change deniers do, why not expand it to another randomly picked date like, well, oh, how about august 2001?

fin25

There's no substance to it. Unless you can tell me percentages then I feel like it's just another way to say Trump is a nazi Russian Patsy

See what I did there?

No, there was an actual vote to decide who got into the whitehouse. Meaning if you know the number of nazis, you can quantify the extent to which they influenced the election.

There's another thread to discuss Trump's ties with Russia.

seosamh77

so, you have no idea what you are talking about?

I was being sarcastic. Shoot me.

I'm not saying that Nazis strongly influenced the election, but Trump is definitely their guy, there's plenty of evidence of that, from direct quotes to statements on their own filthy websites. Also note Trump's difficulties saying that Nazis are bad, which went down a storm with, you guessed it, Nazis.

ninfan - Member
I'm interested though ninfan. Do you agree with the President's statement
yes

I think I've been very clear that the issue is freedom of speech, freedom of belief, and freedom of protest, ought to be absolute

It's not really absolute though, hence why there's incitement to hatred laws for example, there's plenty of restriction on what people can say or protest about.

Absolute freedom of speech is a myth.

I can't find any consistent information. It looks like there's about 3000 - 10,000 KKK members in the US. There doesn't seem to be any info as to how many members the American Nazi Party has.

jimjam - Member

I was being sarcastic. Shoot me.

Yer alright, I'm fine with establishing your bullshit! 😆

I'm not saying that The IRA strongly influenced the election, but Corbyn is definitely their guy, there's plenty of evidence of that, from direct quotes to statements on their own filthy websites. Also note Corbyns difficulties saying that The IRA are bad, which went down a storm with, you guessed it, The IRA

Odd what happens when you point to someone's supporters as proof of their beliefs and affiliations, isn't it?

Can't disagree with that at all ninfan.
Because we're not all Corbyn fans you know...

It's not really absolute though, hence why there's incitement to hatred laws for example, there's plenty of restriction on what people can say or protest about.

Absolute freedom of speech is a myth.

Yes, if only I had provided some form of 'caveat' within brackets saying that....

What's so special about 2007? Sounds a lot like the type of cherry picking climate change deniers do, why not expand it to another randomly picked date like, well, oh, how about august 2001?

As for your IRA broken record give it a rest. It was put to bed very early on with simple reasoning and logic. Corbyn wouldn't single out the IRA.

How is Darling Donald doing, Monday condemm one side, Tuesday after his BFF and AltRight chum Bannon reminded him that those rednecks and Nazi's are the last of his core support so he had better not upset them too much. By the time I land tomorrow morning we don't know who's fault it will be but I'm sure some golf will be getting planned.

Have we done that even Ps M*n thinks he's in the wrong now?

No, No, NO, Mr President @realDonaldTrump.
There is NO defence for neo-Nazis.
None.
Zero.
Zilch.
So stop pandering to these vile scum.

ninfan - Member
I'm not saying that The IRA strongly influenced the election, but Corbyn is definitely their guy, there's plenty of evidence of that, from direct quotes to statements on their own filthy websites. Also note Corbyns difficulties saying that The IRA are bad, which went down a storm with, you guessed it, The IRA
Odd what happens when you point to someone's supporters as proof of their beliefs and affiliations, isn't it?

I think it's fairly obvious that corbyn has sympathies towards a united ireland. So while he may not support their methods, he definitely agrees with their aims.

So taking your logic to it's conclusion.

Which nazi/white supremacist/kkk aims does trump agree with?

Which nazi aims does trump agree with?

i think the only thing that donald j trump believes in is donald j trump....

What's so special about 2007? Sounds a lot like the type of cherry picking climate change deniers do, why not expand it to another randomly picked date like, well, oh, how about august 2001?

Because to get an accurate picture of trends, you sometimes have to trim an anomalous outlier - as others have mentioned.

The cluster, in terms of attacks carried out or attempted, even including 9/11 would still heavily skew towards the right.

You're a terrorist apologist as well as a Nazi now, Ninfan.

so taking your logic to it's conclusion.

Which nazi/white supremacist/kkk aims does trump agree with?

Ooh, ooh, let me guess, Is it the ones who want to gas his Jewish grandchildren?

jam bo - Member
Which nazi aims does trump agree with?
i think the only thing that donald j trump believes in is donald j trump....

I disagree, he's got a clear agenda of enrichment of him and his buddies.

Btw i don't actually believe trump has nazi/kkk/white supremacist sympathies.

It's fairly obviously though that there's a tacit encouragement of this type of group though. For what reason. Well fairly simple, it's yet another cloud obscuring what he and the republicans up to in the background.

> Do you agree with the President's statement
yes

I think I've been very clear that the issue is freedom of speech

You haven't (some may say deliberately so) which is why people were concluding you were a nazi sympathiser.

If your motivation is purely as a libertarian then you could easily have inserted a little qualifier like: [i]"I agree that racism, nazis, KKK and white supremacists are repugnant and against everything America is founded on, but I believe they have the right to free speech and legal gatherings"[/i].

You're answer will be of course be [i]"Why should I?"[/i], but what you really mean is [i]"I get more bites if I don't make that clear"[/i].

ninfan - Member
so taking your logic to it's conclusion.
Which nazi/white supremacist/kkk aims does trump agree with?

Ooh, ooh, let me guess, Is it the ones who want to gas his Jewish grandchildren?

I'm just taking your ridiculous point and putting it back on ye.

No, I don't believe he has nazi sympathies, see above.

How is Darling Donald doing..

You missed the bit where, after condemning hate and violence where someone was run over and killed he then tweeted a cartoon of a CNN reporter being run over by a Trump train. 🙄

I think I've been very clear that the issue

If your motivation is purely as a libertarian then you could easily have inserted a little qualifier like: "I agree that racism, nazis, KKK and white supremacists are repugnant and against everything America is founded on, but I believe they have the right to free speech and legal gatherings".

He doesn't believe in freedom of speech or expression anyway, as we have seen with his views on the Burqa.

Two things.

1) Trump deliberately says directly contradictory things depending on the phase of the moon, sometimes in the same sentence. The logic is that people have selective hearing, they'll latch on to the bits that reinforce their world view and conveniently forget the things they disagree with. It's how you win elections.

2) WTF has Corbyn got to do with Charlottesville? Talk about agenda-pushing, that's weapons-grade whataboutery.

I really like how ninfan disappears for a bit while the random lefty-hating troll generator warms up its next post after the last one failed to stick.

Nah there's a pattern there. He generally disappears when a good point is made and comes back later when he doesn't need to answer it.

Nah there's a pattern there. He generally disappears when a good point is made and comes back later when he doesn't need to answer it.

It's almost as if he lacks conviction in his "opinions"...

Ban Toryboi?

Nah, but he's one of the few posters who I'd consider blocking.

The fact that he even trolls on a subject like this I find leaves a bad taste in my mouth....

Ugggghhh, now I feel unclean.

Fing heathen.

I really like how ninfan disappears for a bit while the random lefty-hating troll generator warms up its next post after the last one failed to stick.

I really like how the random lefties spend forever campaigning against violence and intolerance whilst being intolerant of, and violent towards, anyone who disagrees with them.

If you want to get upset because you think I'm 'defending' Nazis, then why the hell shouldn't I? You're the ones who are defending and justifying political violence, not me. You're the ones who get upset when a whole group is castigated for the actions of an individual or tiny minority (Muslim ban anyone?)... except when it's you doing the castigating

"Punch a nazi in the face" they cry, then recoil in horror when it turns out that Nazis actually punch back.

"But they didn't just punch back" you cry, "they actually killed people"

Well? What on earth did you expect? They're Nazis FFS!