[Closed] Catholic church and child abuse.

Why are they not condemned from the highest level? I just don't understand and it sickens me.

Musn't hurt the Pope.

Either because Ratzinger is the sort of dimwit who thinks that problems go away if you ignore them or - whisper it - he's a paedophile, too.

Mr Woppit - as a catholic, my feelings arent hurt by this at all, and I'm not a poor sensitive little monkey. I find paedophilia as abhorrent as the next person, and am disgusted by the churches repeated attempts to sweep this under the carpet. Target your anger at Ratzinger by all means, but dont tar us all with the same brush, please.
ps, I posted this before you edited your post, so I'm sorry if it no longer appears as relevant.

You are all a bunch of dogma-brainwashed victims who believe in things that aren't there, and the rest of it about stuff that never existed in the first place. ie: The alleged Nazarene and so on.

How's that for a properly-sized brush?

Cheers for that Mr Woppit, you certainly put me in my place!

All catholics have been abused IMO

I suspect that, generally, embarrassing problems are often not dealt with terribly well within large organisations. It may be right that the catholic church basically exists to **** kids, but if that's right then I think we'd also have to accept the possibility that Barings Bank existed basically to be bankrupted by out-of-control traders. But yes, not good. 🙁

"All catholics have been abused IMO"
Care to explain?

Where does one sign up for the University of Woppit?

barnsleymitch - Member

Cheers for that Mr Woppit, you certainly put me in my place!

Nope. Your cult did that to you.

In all likelyhood by some of the "sinister, hysterical virgins" who run it. And your parents, of course...

[img] [/img]

He should give up one of his jobs really.

[img] [/img]

I CBA - work it out for yourself?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse

I come here for the intellectual engagement, mostly. 😀

"All catholics have been abused IMO"
Care to explain?

I think it's probably a fair argument that inflicting 'catholic guilt' etc on children is a form of child abuse. That's before you get started on actually molesting kids.

I find it amazing that senior people in the Catholic Church seem to think they can just go, 'oh sorry we made a few mistakes' - no, you systematically covered up child abuse and threatened people who tried to uncover it with excommunication. That makes you complicit in the crime surely.

Target your anger at Ratzinger by all means, but dont tar us all with the same brush, please.

Every Catholic is responsible.

[i]inflicting 'catholic guilt' etc on children is a form of child abuse.[/i]

How about inflicting "middle class politically-correct lactose-intolerant angst"?

Slippery slope... 😉

"The indoctrination of children into religious dogma, is a form of child abuse" - Richard Dawkins.

How about inflicting "middle class politically-correct lactose-intolerant angst"?

Yes that's exactly the same as convincing them that they are basically evil and that there is a magic man in the sky who will punish them if they don't repent their horrific sins.

grum - Member

How about inflicting "middle class politically-correct lactose-intolerant angst"?

Yes that's exactly the same as convincing them that they are basically evil and that there is a magic man in the sky who will punish them if they don't repent their horrific sins.

... who is all-powerful and set the game up in the first place so you couldn't avoid it.

Riiiight...

Being a priest Id like to dispel this myth that all catholic priests are fascists. Fascists dress in black, and order people how to live, whereas priests... oh shit.

Catholic priests putting the 'Fear of God' in children.
Or buggery as the rest of us call it.

I really hate it when other people force their religion down your throat..catholic priests are especially good at doing this..

"Every Catholic is responsible."
How does that make any sense? I've already stated my position on this, and I will not accept that simply by being a member of the catholic church I am in some way condoning the acts and omissions of other members. By that argument, would you also state that all muslims are responsible for 911, etc? This is a long standing problem that has long been ignored /condoned by the vatican, which desperately needs addressing, now.

I cannnot work out what is worse here the actuall abuse itself or the way the Church wholeheartedly failed to deal with abusers in an appropriate manner. There seems to be examples in many countries now of know paedos where the Church has not alerted the authorities and in some cases willfully protected perpetrators whilst neglecting abuse victims. It is like some kind of institutional peadophillia if you can have such a thing?
Trully shamefull - not sure it has anything to do with their religous views per se but if this was say an International charity that looked after children or a group of Social workers in an Inner city what would we and the papers be saying then and what would be happening. I think we need to seriously act to regulate the Church as they seem incapable of doing it themseleves and we MUST prevent more children being harmed
Trully horific.
Please note I am not quite as rabid as Whoppit in my aetheism [ is anyone? and not sure if religion is a part of this story or not but clearly the pope himself is implicated in mor ethan oine example of cobver up /inaction

Elegant sidestep there, barnsleymitch.

"get in there!".....
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
........... said the priest to his willy....

9/11 was perpetrated by extremists, not the head of the religion.

You can sit there wringing your hands saying how terrible it is and needs addressing now, but you should be lobbying your priests, bishops, cardinals, pressing for action to be taken.

Without the followers the leaders are nothing. Every catholic gives the church it's power and so every catholic is responsible.

Religion is filth.

Rabid? Me?

Trully shamefull - not sure it has anything to do with their religous views per se but if this was say an International charity that looked after children or a group of Social workers in an Inner city what would we and the papers be saying then and what would be happening.

Indeed - this is an organisation that is allowed to run schools, adoption agencies etc.

Also makes their constant pronouncements on the evils of condoms and homosexuality etc seem particularly ironic - not anywhere near as evil as molesting kids and then covering it up presumably? But you can stay a Catholic priest even if you're a paedophile, as long as you're not a gay.

Edit: Sorry, don't [i]admit publically[/i] to being gay.

I was at church the other day and when the collection came around I put some Monopoly money in the basket. The priest said to me, "What are you doing? That's not real money!"
"Much like this 'god' of yours...."

[i] By that argument, would you also state that all muslims are responsible for 911, et[/i]

Or all members of the Hitler Youth are responsible for the Holocaust.
Some just joined because they liked dressing up in uniforms 😉

The jokes would be funny if religion existed only in the history books.

The priest in a small Irish village loved the rooster and ten hens he kept in the hen house behind the church.
One Sunday morning, before mass, he went to feed the birds and discovered that the cock was missing.
He knew about cock fights in the village, so he questioned his parishioners in church.
During mass, he asked the congregation, "Has anybody got a cock?" All the men stood up.
"No, no," he said, "that wasn't what I meant. Has anybody seen a cock?" All the women stood up.
"No, no," he said, "that wasn't what I meant. Has anybody seen my cock?"
Sixteen altar boys, two priests and a goat stood up.

😆 @ IanMunro

That wasnt what I was trying to do Mr Woppit - You can no more hold every member of the catholic church responsible for this than you can blame all muslims for commiting acts of terrorism - I'm struggling to get my point across here, I know, but I'm certainly not trying to sidestep or deflect 'blame' onto any other religion. Live and let live, please.

By that argument, would you also state that all muslims are responsible for 911, et

Or all members of the Hitler Youth are responsible for the Holocaust.
Some just joined because they liked dressing up in uniforms

Well played sir

Some just joined because they liked dressing up in uniforms

Or being called Mosley........

barnsleymitch - Member
That wasnt what I was trying to do Mr Woppit - You can no more hold every member of the catholic church responsible for this than you can blame all muslims for commiting acts of terrorism - I'm struggling to get my point across here, I know, but I'm certainly not trying to sidestep or deflect 'blame' onto any other religion. Live and let live, please.

You follow the people who commit these crimes, you follow the people who actively cover up these crimes and in doing so YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE.

Terrorist acts are committed by extremists, NOT THE HEAD OF A RELIGION OF A BILLION PEOPLE.

barnsleymitch - Member

That wasnt what I was trying to do Mr Woppit - You can no more hold every member of the catholic church responsible for this than you can blame all muslims for commiting acts of terrorism - I'm struggling to get my point across here, I know, but I'm certainly not trying to sidestep or deflect 'blame' onto any other religion. Live and let live, please.

I'm more interested in you responding to the idea that the only reason you're a catholic, is because your parents placed you in the instructional care of the cultists when you were a child, who brainwashed you before you were old enough to examine the argument independently.

There was a shocking [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests ]article in the Guardian[/url] the other day, from a Catholic, who was saying that the abuse statistics amongst priests weren't too bad, compared to the population as a whole and that hence they are no worse than any other profession. Which is basically wrong - as he is missing the point that almost all abuse is by parents, who obviously have most access to children, and that abuse from people outside the family is incredibly rare. Compared to teachers, Catholic priests are many orders of magnitude more likely to be abusers. The "we're not too bad really" tone and the misrepresentation of statistics in that article really made me angry.

By that argument, would you also state that all muslims are responsible for 911, etc?

Islamic terrorism is hardly on the same scale though. No one sensible has ever suggested that anything other than an extremely tiny minority of Islamic leaders are active terrorists. Whereas 4% of US Catholic clerics have been accused of being child abusers - that is 1 in 25 of them.

It is hard to understand how anyone can claim to take moral leadership from an organisation with such an endemic problem of buggering children. Or can go to church and worship with the knowledge that there is a 1 in 25 chance (or better if there are multiple people running the service) that one of the people teaching them how to be good is also buggering kids in their spare time.

Joe

You can no more hold every member of the catholic church responsible for this than you can blame all muslims for commiting acts of terrorism

Except that in this case the leader of the catholic church is actually complicit in the crime.

An old lady passes a young boy crying outside his house

"whats wrong young lad" she says

"me ma and pa have both been killed in a car crash" says the boy

the old lady replies "Oh thats terrible, do you want me to get the Priest father O'Malley" "

the boy looks up confused and says "sex is the last thing on me mind right now"

anyway an organistation with so much ingrained hatred toward gays, unwed mothers, sinners etc should have no place in moder civilized society

There was a shocking article in the Guardian the other day, from a Catholic, who was saying that the abuse statistics amongst priests weren't too bad

I believe the pope also said that child abuse had increased in society because of declining morals due to less people attending church. 😕

Religion is filth.

Possibly not all of them and certainly not all those that are religious.

Easy with the caps lock there lifer, you'll do yourself a mischief. I could kick myself for getting involved with this - I was simply trying to say that not all catholics are paedophiles or apologists, but appear to have become the target for several people's hostility towards religion. I'm gonna back out now, I dont really need this crap.

You follow the people who commit these crimes, you follow the people who actively cover up these crimes and in doing so YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE.

Surely that makes every British Tax payer responsible for all deaths in Afghanistan/Iraq everyone who buys clothes from Primark responsible for child labour.
Anyone who uses electricity responsible for global warming.

For being born into a Western Catholic Family I pretty much seem to be responsible for every evil in the world. Oh well Im not going to worry about it too much.

Surely that makes every British Tax payer responsible for all deaths in Afghanistan/Iraq everyone who buys clothes from Primark responsible for child labour.
Anyone who uses electricity responsible for global warming.

well yes imho

barnsleymitch and other catholics - I'm genuinely interested to know what you think should happen to Ratzinger and all others who have been shown to be guilty of covering up child abuse?

well yes imho

Im not saying that not wrong either, Im just making the point we're all indirectly to so many evils that it would be ridiculous to try and point out them all out.

No one is in a better position to lecture anyone else.

that makes every British Tax payer responsible for all deaths in Afghanistan/Iraq

Only the ones who voted for bLiar.

barnsleymitch - Member

Easy with the caps lock there lifer, you'll do yourself a mischief. I could kick myself for getting involved with this - I was simply trying to say that not all catholics are paedophiles or apologists, but appear to have become the target for several people's hostility towards religion. I'm gonna back out now, I dont really need this crap.

You're perfectly entitled to not have the courage of your convictions and avoid questions with which you find it too difficult to deal.

I suppose you might need [i]another two[/i] opportunities to back out of it, hmmm?

Oh bo**ocks, I said I was gonna back out, but I do want to respond to grum's post. They should all be removed from office, tried and charged, of course, in the same way that anyone should be. Why should they be treated any differently? Did you honestly expect a different response from me?

Only the ones who voted for bLiar.

Well then surely only the catholics who agree with pedophilia are responsible for the abuse.

If you paid your tax's the money went to the government and was spent on the war regardless of your personal beliefs.

Same as if you put money in the plate at a catholic church some of that money may have been spent on hiding child abuse.

If you had refused to pay your taxes while we were at war in Iraq that might be different.

"I'm more interested in you responding to the idea that the only reason you're a catholic, is because your parents placed you in the instructional care of the cultists when you were a child, who brainwashed you before you were old enough to examine the argument independently."

Please respond to mine.

Edit: "Why should they be treated any differently? " Because Ratzinger and his network of cult officers is protecting them.

I'm certainly not trying to sidestep or deflect 'blame' onto any other religion. Live and let live, please.

Aye, you're simply waffling shit to confuse the issue, but then you are only an ill informed serf/pleb with seemingly little need to question what you follow (which is exactly what your church needs in abundance to survive, and to do whatever it wants to you and your fellow 'lics). I'd be ashamed of myself in your position but then you can always ask forgiveness, right?

If you paid your tax's the money went to the government and was spent on the war regardless of your personal beliefs.

It's really about choice is it not?
You cannot opt out of paying tax (prison awaits) but you can opt out of voting for a war mongerer or following a religion known to abet child abusers.

"I'm more interested in you responding to the idea that the only reason you're a catholic, is because your parents placed you in the instructional care of the cultists when you were a child, who brainwashed you before you were old enough to examine the argument independently."

Im a catholic my answer would be yes thats true.

The main reason any one holds their views is the environment they grew up in, if you think the views your hold have not been shaped by your parents, friends, environment and society you are from you are saddle mistaken.

There are view few people who genuinely come up with a new idea of way of viewing society most people just recycle other people beliefs and mash them together in a way that lets them get through their lives without going mad.

It's really about choice is it not?
You cannot opt out of paying tax (prison awaits) but you can opt out of voting for a war mongerer or following a religion known to abet child abusers.

Yes you can if you really thought it was wrong you could go to prison, you could leave the country you can make any choice you want.

You can no more hold every member of the catholic church responsible for this than you can blame all muslims for commiting acts of terrorism

Unlike Islam generally, the Catholic Church has a fixed hierarchy and organisation. Its leader is clearly identified (well, His earthly deputy, anyway). Those who actively support and fund that organisation are aware of what they are doing.

You might think that the Catholic Church is God's appointed organisation on earth. You might think that it has done vastly more good than ill. You might believe that the abuse of those sinners will be punished many times over by God. But if you show up for church and donate money, you're not in the same boat as some hapless random Muslim dude who's getting blamed for all the shit that someone else did.

you are only an ill informed serf/pleb

Yes you can if you really thought it was wrong you could go to prison, you could leave the country you can make any choice you want.

Not realistic though is it?
Some are not fortunate enough to be able to move country or irresponsible enough to go to prison for a belief.

The main reason any one holds their views is the environment they grew up in, if you think the views your hold have not been shaped by your parents, friends, environment and society

I was forced to go to church when I was 11 and embarrassingly baptised. After a couple of years, I decided it was a lot of ridiculous nonsense about an invisible sky fairy, proselytised by adults who seemed too stupid to answer simple questions, so I stopped going.

Fortunately, the attempt to indoctrinate me was made too late to catch me before independent analysis kicked in. This isn't the good fortune of most child victims.

I find your equating of a free and balanced upbringing where children are allowed to see all sides of the argument and are allowed to make up their own minds, with the sort of disgusting brainwashing that happens in religious cults like yours, to be an exact product of the indoctrination that I am talking about.

"I'm more interested in you responding to the idea that the only reason you're a catholic, is because your parents placed you in the instructional care of the cultists when you were a child, who brainwashed you before you were old enough to examine the argument independently."

Yes because you would clearly listen to the argument with that kind of open neutral question
Your vitroilic approach does not really help you win arguments - it just make you and other aethists look like intolerant c0cks which you will doubtlessly say you are towards fairy stories etc
Seriously do you actually expect anyone religous to engage with you?Does it seem likely they will change your opinion?
EDIT: Ah see your post above as more proof of your tolerance do you ever get bored insulting them?

scu98rkr

Surely that makes every British Tax payer responsible for all deaths in Afghanistan/Iraq

Only those that didn't/don't make their voices heard.

everyone who buys clothes from Primark responsible for child labour.

Yes, you have a choice of what products to buy.

Anyone who uses electricity responsible for global warming.

Well yes quite simply.

Now I've played you little game of whattaboutary the goverment is a completely different issue though, when did you last vote for your priest/bishop/cardinal? And comparing religion to Primark? Really? And are people just sitting back and saying 'Oh global warming is bad isn't it? Something should be done!' or are steps being taken to improve energy consumption etc?

Yes because you would clearly listen to the argument with that kind of open neutral question
Your vitroilic approach does not really help you win arguments - it just make you and other aethists look like intolerant c0cks which you will doubtlessly say you are towards fairy stories etc
Seriously do you actually expect anyone religous to engage with you?Does it seem likely they will change your opinion?

Pot. Kettle.

Deal with the question.

I agree with backhander. BM seems a thoroughly decent chap, and I would imagine is thoroughly disheartened by the performance of the RC church.

I guess the question is why aren't the RC members rising up and staking a claim in *their* church? Maybe they are, in which case they might want to be a bit more vocal about it.

"Aye, you're simply waffling shit to confuse the issue, but then you are only an ill informed serf/pleb with seemingly little need to question what you follow (which is exactly what your church needs in abundance to survive, and to do whatever it wants to you and your fellow 'lics). I'd be ashamed of myself in your position but then you can always ask forgiveness, right?"
GW, Woppit, lifer et al - save the vitriol for someone that deserves it. I work in forensic psychiatry, looking after both victims and perpetrators of sexual abuse, therefore I have more 'insight' into this than I ever wanted, and find your assumptions that I am in some way 'misguided' by my religion insulting to say the least. I am a catholic not through my own choice but through my parents'. I do not blindly follow or accept every edict passed down through the church, nor do I condone the vatican's stance on institutionalised paedophilia within the catholic church.

I guess the question is why aren't the RC members rising up and staking a claim in *their* church? Maybe they are, in which case they might want to be a bit more vocal about it.

That's what I'm talking about.

And being intolerant to intolerant religions? That really is unfair isn't it!

My view is that everyone religious is misguided.

and find your assumptions that I am in some way 'misguided' by my religion insulting to say the least.

Why did you become a catholic and not a muslim, or a daoist, or a member of any other similar cult.

When the jesuits say "Give us the child and we will give you back the adult", it's not just a clever phrase. They mean it.

Please deal with the question.

backhander - Member
That's right out of order.

I agree and think any group treating their members as such is well out of order!

I work in forensic psychiatry, looking after both victims and perpetrators of sexual abuse,

Then you should be aware of how difficult it is for adults to come to terms with negative childhood experiences, yes? "In denial" is the phrase I'm looking for, I think.

deal with the question

* I was never baptised went to a religious primary school and somehow was able to think freely for myself.

You turn every debate with any religious connotations into some sort of offensive abuse fest for you to insult people of faith as much as possible and it serves little purpose ...your atheism borders on the fervour of the born again religious.

No TJ with shouts of "racism"?
I'm quite interested in paganism personally.

Mr Woppit - I've already dealt with it. You seem a lot more 'keen' to make a point than I do, I've said several times that the vatican's stance on this is disgusting - what more would you like me to say?
I'm not attempting to evade your question (I'm no longer sure what your 'question' is, to be honest), I just fail to see the point in trying to defend myself from your increasingly aggressive standpoint.

and find your assumptions that I am in some way [b]'misguided'[/b] by my religion insulting to say the least. [b]I am a catholic not through my own choice but through my parents'[/b]. I do not blindly follow or accept every edict passed down through the church, nor do I condone the vatican's stance on institutionalised paedophilia within the catholic church.

Definition: : led or prompted by wrong or inappropriate motives or ideals.

Guess the word?

Mr Woppit, your insistence that barnsleymitch 'deal with the question' suggests a willingness to engage in some sort of meaningful, rational discourse.

Unfortunately, you show no evidence of being able to do so yourself.

If I asked a question of someone in the most aggressive and poisoned way possible, then sat back and smugly criticised everything [i]I[/i] judged to be a hole in their response, yet kept calling on them to 'answer the question', I would not be inviting rational discourse.

I would be baiting, and that would be bullying.

Now, since [i]ad hominem[/i] 'arguments' seem to be the order of the day on this thread, I find your position, together with the positions of such obvious intellectual heavyweights as Lifer and GW, hideous for their vitriol and lack of understanding.

Your collective misappropriation of history, psychology, and sociology - not to mention theology - is unbecoming of a rational species.

What understanding do I lack? At least qualify a statement like that.

What don't I understand, exactly?

If you understood what you didn't understand, you wouldn't need to ask.
But if you need to ask, then you won't understand.
I think.
Donald Rumsfeld summed it up better with his seminal theory on what can be known 😉

Ah yes, theology.

There was a nun called "Sister Wendy", if memory serves, who made a series of programmes for BBC2 awhile back in which she pretended to be an art critic, something appreciated by ACTUAL art critics because they used to watch it for a laugh, apparently.

Anyway, this person surfaced agin recently where she was quoted as saying:

"Atheists cannot argue for the non-existence of god because" - and I continue to quote "they do not have any theology, poor lambs".

I find this remark to be fatuous and patronising both at the same time.

Ir's true that, as an atheist, I don't have any "Theology". It's also true to say that I also don't have any Leprechaunology, Unicornology or Fairies-at-the-bottom-of-the-garden ology either. I am quite comfortable maintaining that these mythical creatures also do not exist, however.

I note that it always seems the final defence of the religious that, whenever they find the argument too difficult to deal with, they retreat into being "offended", or "hurt".

Demonstrate to me that I am wrong. That's all you have to do and you can continue to be as vituperative about it as you like - it doesn't bother me. Is your position so weak that all you have is expressions of hurt?

I do not find it compelling.

Religion propagates itself by the brainwashing and indoctrination of children, placed into it's programme by the child's parents.

Yes or no? If no - why?

Oh.. fairies exist alright 😉

Must admit, even though I dont like inbalanced reporting how many other Churches do you hear this shit about?

What does it say about the Catholic faith? Its more than a few bad eggs. How many have they really covered up?