I tried, many years ago – For whom the bell tolls. Again, because of the Spanish Civil War connection. I gave up about a quarter of the way through, despite initially being very determined

See my comments above. Don’t give up on all reading because of experiences like that – some authors just don’t make for easy reading.

and I’d add in…

Thoreau. 8)

aka_Gilo sums it up for me. Free market with notable exceptions.

theyEye – quite.

I think it’s a pity you do yourself down based on your employment GG 😉

Your lucid and informed posts suggest far more capacity for wider studying than you seem willing to pursue.

Alternative power sources can and will be found.

At what point ? Before fossil fuels run out or before the earth reaches a point of no return environmentally ?

The idea that alternative methods will be implementable globally to offer a seamless transition from fossil to non fossil is hardly worth giving serious thought to.

We’re doomed.

I’d also add Hobbes, Locke, Burke, Rousseau, Smiles, Lenin, Trotsky, Orwell. You need a spread to understand where modern political and economic thought comes from. Then get out and do something about it.

Hmm, will not write too much about economics as it will be way too boring. But here is a little taster from Iron Curtain:
-My neighbour’s uncle was jailed for deliberate avoidance of work. At those times, very few and believe me 1 out of 1000 couldn’t work due to disability etc even then if that was the case comunity would help person out to get a little job aka ringing the bell in school or something equivalent of lollipop lady.

-6months deliberate avoidance of work would equal 3-6months sentence in prison for promoting careless example of living (Tramp-ing). Once, USSR broke it was a big shock to many ex USSR countries to see homeless people. I mean, if you really dig out how it was before, you may find few homeless people but those would serve multiple sentences as described but even then you would really had to try it hard. Usually those -broken- characters would turn out to be helpless alcoholics with no self respect.
-My father used to work in Ship construction as a welder and used to earn lets say for example 200-250notes a month. Of which 25 would go towards housing including all bills and council flat rent. Another 25-30notes would go towards monthly food bill. The rest had either to go on Vodka n parties, or if more sophisticated, travelling around or saving towards private flat-house.
-Once as worker to government big factories or establishments, with work experience of 2+ years worker was entitled to Council Flat/studio, but if 7+ years then 1-2bedroom flat providing person would marry and start family. Many of those so called government establishment did build multi-stories blocks of flat to care for their workers.
-Kindergardens were free to all.
-Schools and universities were free to all.
-Hospital etc free to all again.

People were encouraged to start families and were given those privilege and convinience to grow families. We as kids were given tour-holiday from fathers work to stay for 1 or 3 months all inclusive in -Pioneer camps- during summer holidays and lived in forest as well as been trained all kind of forest life etc. As you see there was very heavy accent on children being educated through all different establishments. Obviously extremes of being taught of AK-74 in those scout camps were awesome but nevertheless.
-There were -Neighbourhood patrols- after 21.30 and any under age was caught out hanging around on streets would be taken to police station, which would inform school and local comunity authority of that reckless teenager and his careless parents. Needless to say plenty of embarassing questions would follow from your neighbours and school teachers etc. My parents wouldn’t be impressed if that happened to me, and all pointing fingers at them from neighbours.

What we didn’t have were:

-Snickers, Coca Cola, Levi’s Jeans, Mercedes Benz cars, if there was shipment of exotic fruits aka bananas or pineapples people would have to queue for 5-6hours to get them. Not saying there was shortage of local produce or any foods, but due to Iron curtain Imports were rare.

People were not allowed to build extravagant Villas. There was standard on average 3 models of houses people could choose to build in order not to drive public into envy which would promote materialistic value and race towards greed.
-And worst of it all, USSR citizens were not allowed to travel abroad. You could go anywhere withing USSR territory (15countries) but West was forbidden. Not saying that my father somehow got ABBA and BoneyM records from sailors, but that’s another story.

why all the “old english” bollox ffs ?

I thought he was trying to give an English version of Tu/Usted. Maybe I was wrong.

I loved a farewell to arms and For whom the bell tolls and to have and to have not.

At what point ? Before fossil fuels run out

inevitably – the demands for hydrocarbons for use in non-fuel products will price it above alternative fuels sources long before it runs out.

before the earth reaches a point of no return environmentally

that’s a tougher one since a) no-one knows when “earth reaches a point of no return environmentally” and b) whether that point can even be reached if you return ALL of the stored carbon to the earth’s atmosphere.

Thoreau

**** wierdy beardy dirty hippy 🙂

trailmonkey – Memb
We’re doomed

See, you’re a glass half empty kind of guy.

I’m a glass half full kind of guy.

For all it’s many many faults, I have a (possibly naieve) faith in the human race to survive, and to develop economic / environmental policies / processes to do so.

It’ll take being on the cusp of disaster to do so however…

and to develop economic / environmental policies / processes to do so.

What like using the markets to regulate carbon emissions ? Cos that’s really worked huh ?

Maybe it’s cos I’m a glass half full kind of guy that I see that there ‘s light at the end of the tunnel it’s just not linked to continued economic growth.

I think it’s a pity you do yourself down based on your employment GG

Your lucid and informed posts suggest far more capacity for wider studying than you seem willing to pursue.
I agree – and have previously said much the same. Do we have to beat you around the head (or maybe force you to listen to the collected speeches of Mrs T – that would be far crueller) before you accept that all the evidence from your writings on this forum is that you’re nowhere near as thick as you like to make out?

I thought he was trying to give an English version of Tu/Usted. Maybe I was wrong.

No I believe you’re right. It doesn’t explain why he did it though …….the people might have spoken like that, but they also spoke in Spanish. And yet the book wasn’t written in Spanish.

**** wierdy beardy dirty hippy

Even worse – he occasionally worked as a surveyor.

Not chartered though, iirc. 😀

What like using the markets to regulate carbon emissions ? Cos that’s really worked huh ?

Nope, because at present there’s no real incentive for it to work.

Maybe it’s cos I’m a glass half full kind of guy that I see that there ‘s light at the end of the tunnel it’s just not linked to continued economic growth.

Fair enough – so what is it linked to? (bearing in mind that most of us – Western society – have lifestyles based on economic growth).

Id love to see a future based on economic contraction, but unless we want to see some massive increases in levels of poverty, it’s not going to happen whilst we continue to have population growth. Fortunately there’s some indications that population growth should peak sometime this century and start falling again.

Fortunately there’s some indications that population growth should peak sometime this century and start falling again.

Really? Got any sources? Not being facetious, I’ve long thought that population growth is by far the biggest problem the human race / the planet faces, so if indeed the curve is not ever-upwards I will sleep easier 🙂

Stoner, falling population will happen either through wars, natural disaster or pharmaceutical gadgetry. Soya bean allready been modified to produce different kind of protein, but that’s another story.

I think it’s a pity you do yourself down based on your employment GG

I’m not sure I understand that …….I have no problem with what I am/my profession/trade.

you’re nowhere near as thick as you like to make out

I don’t really understand that either. I know I’m not thick, but I also know that I’m not much above average. A very important point imo … ’cause being “right” is far more important to me than being “clever”.

Actually if anything, the reserve is true aracer – I am aware that I give the appearance on here, that I am far more intellectual than I really am. The truth is that spellcheck and thesaurus are my friends 😀

The UN. I think they might be hedging their bets though 🙂

Really? Got any sources?

He’s modelled it in Excel. Or else he’s talking about the population of Malvern. Possibly.

Edit: fug, too slow!

You can’t really argue with kaesae. He doesn’t follow logic and reason, and he has a very confused idea of the past or other parts of the present. And you can’t even get angry with him because he’s a nice chap.

Capitalism is indeed a bad system but so are all the others unfortunately.

1) I vote for the green curve 😉

2) The blue line scares the life out of me.

what I mean GG, is that you seem to use your trade as an excuse not to aspire to be more academic/intellectual… ❓

The truth is that spellcheck and thesaurus are my friends

Spellcheck and thesaurus don’t make for coherent writing (or even good grammar – IME grammar checkers on word processors don’t even result in good grammar if not used intelligently). The evidence is all around you in correctly spelt posts with long words which actually make little sense – not something your posts could ever be accused of. Anyway, it’s not even the writing, it’s the thinking behind it – I reserve my right to disagree with you on a lot of issues, but that doesn’t mean your opinions and arguments aren’t generally very well thought out (I can easily beat lots of people supposedly more intellectual than you in an argument – you might have noticed I sometimes enjoy the challenge of taking you on, my theory being that a score draw is a good result).

…I always think at some point I’ll discover that Ernie is actually a sock puppet for somebody totally different having a laugh at us all.

God you’re a boring sod, Stoner.

Got any more graphs before I fall asleep? I like a nice graph, me. 🙂

It’s late and my brain hurts will try and expand after a sleep but IMHO:

Capitalism does have it’s place in part of a wider economic system, no ‘pure’ system is right.

Where capitalism does work is production where profit and competition keep development going, costs down and wages fair. Socialism is the fairest way of providing services (education, health, emergency response and I’d argue infrastructure) because once you bring profit into these areas the service become less important.

I think that capitalism fits in quite well wth the natural order of things. Survival of the fittest, natural selection, predator/prey cycles.

I’d say inherited wealth is pretty unnatural selection.

Well you’re wrong Stoner. In this instance, I just simply used my trade to emphasis what you should expect my academic/intellectual level to be. Because apart from the very obvious fact that I read the Guardian, in almost every other respect, I am a very typical manual building worker. I feel utterly comfortable in a construction site environment, my likes, preferences, etc, are exactly the same as any other building worker. How many building workers would you expect to have read Hemingway ffs ? Be honest.

Ernie; can you recommend some plywood from which I can make furniture please? 🙂

Thanks.

I love plywood, me.

aracer – Member

Anyway, it’s not even the writing, it’s the thinking behind it….

Exactly……that’s my point. Concentrate on that. Would you be impressed by someone who understood the theory of evolution ? After all, it took a genius to work it out. And yet today a nine year old child can understand the principles behind it.

What about plywood though Ernie? 🙁

You can’t come up with a system for an industrialised society that will work because the progress of evolution is so far behind the progress of technology that there’s a fundamental mismatch between the modern human’s inherent behaviour and how it has to live.

It all started falling apart when we progressed from hunter-gatherers to farmers.

I love that chair; I frickin’ love that chair!

I wish I had that chair… 🙁

How many building workers would you expect to have read Hemingway ffs ?

Well, I did when I was in shopfitting and you have, so that’s at least two (even if I don’t work on a building site anymore). Hemmingway would have been most impressed at that statistic.

Id love to see a future based on economic contraction, but unless we want to see some massive increases in levels of poverty, it’s not going to happen whilst we continue to have population growth.

Two points,

1. I’d also love to see a future based upon current levels of carbon emmissions, but sadly there isn’t much of one. So I guess something’s just going to have to give.

2. Increases in poverty and a disparity between rich and poor are hardly likely to decrease because of econmic growth, in fact I’m sure there’s plenty of evidence to suggest that econmic growth and wealth disparity grow pretty well together.

tm – RE 2)

That’s where I think economic contraction would be one of the biggest steps towards equality.

Much of the capital value of assets across the world is based on expectation of income generated and additional expectations that that income will grow over time. This “yield” whether it be on shares, bonds, land or property would be dramatically affected by falling long term demand that would result from a falling population, wiping out massive amounts of capital value. Who holds capital assets? The wealthy, not the poor. I think wage income would be relatively unchanged but capital value would plummet. Unearned income from assets would also fall. Even other commodity assets like gold and silver would fall in price as the pool of prospective purchasers, which keeps these prices afloat, shrinks. A communist utopia when the capitalist shark stops swimming forwards? 🙂

in fact I’m sure there’s plenty of evidence to suggest that econmic growth and wealth disparity grow pretty well together.

Maybe, but wealth disparity is a socialist fallacy – it seems there’s a preference for the poor to get poorer so long as the rich are getting poorer faster. Economic growth does tend to result in less poverty (not least because there’s more to redistribute given a suitably inclined political system) – I’ve never understood who actually benefits from politics of envy.

more plywood:

awesome stuff.

How many building workers would you expect to have read Hemingway ffs ? Be honest.

How many Hemmingway readers would expect to have constructed a shed from scratch? 🙂