Poly – thanks for the correction / knowledge. even if it means I must moderate my position 🙂

mudshark
a number of vicars are openly gay, but they are meant to stay celibate.

Hence Farrons ” homosexuality is not a sin” but refusing to say if gay sex was a sin – weasel words

retro83 – Member

Mr Woppit – Member
Religious bigot fails to square his leadership of liberal values with his loathing of gay people.

Don’t let the door hit you on the way out…

Loathing of gay people? That must be why he consistently voted in favour of gay marriage and gay rights then.
[/quote]

Check his voting record – voted against on occasion and absented himself from crucial votes. Voted for allowing discrimination against gay folk

but how a married couple can claim to live hundreds of miles apart so they can both live in their own constituencies is more than a bit odd.

Bearing in mind that they both spend 1/2 their “working” lives in Westminster its not as odd as it seems. Plenty of people work offshore or overseas for protracted periods, and indeed people I know who “live” somewhere very different from where the “work” – lodging there for 4 nights a week.[/quote]

My MP was raised and lived in the town, and continues to live here.

Her husband is a Welsh MP, who she met while at Westminster. He is from Wales and lives there.

As far as I know, from Monday to Thursday, while Parliament is in session, they live together in London. At weekends, they return to their constituencies. It’s just the reverse of what most MPs do.

Loathing of gay people? That must be why he consistently voted in favour of gay marriage and gay rights then.

Check his voting record – voted against on occasion and absented himself from crucial votes. Voted for allowing discrimination against gay folk[/quote]

This was the issue for me. His voting record doesn’t match his words.

mudshark – Member
…As for the bible and homosexuality – its not mentioned in the New Testament which is what guides most Christians, love of all people is the prime rule here….

Aye, the Old Testament is pretty much a manual for genocide which we have been pretty good at while spreading civilisation and Christianity. It’s a bit slack that we haven’t burnt any witches lately.

I always thought the most important bit in the New Testament is love thy neighbour.

Aye, the Old Testament is pretty much a manual for genocide

and plenty of other completely irrelevant shit such as these classics;

You shall not plow with an ox and a donkey together.
You shall not wear a material mixed of wool and linen together.
You shall make yourself tassels on the four corners of your garment with which you cover yourself
Oh, and don’t go having gay sex now

Theresa May has a record of voting against or abstaining from equalities legislation, yet receives far less scrutiny than Farron.

She’s a Tory.

He’s supposed to be Liberal.

She’s a Tory.

He’s supposed to be Liberal.

She’s the Prime minister, and was Home Secretary, serving in a government that introduced same sex marriage.

Its not hypocritical for a tory to be illiberal. Its is for a liberal – hence the scrutiny

You shall not plow with an ox and a donkey together.

That is not what I would personally do, but if others wish to plow with oxen and donkeys, that is their choice and I fully respect it.

Its not hypocritical for a tory to be illiberal. Its is for a liberal – hence the scrutiny

Is he illiberal, though? I’m not convinced that accusation is supported by his voting record, which is what counts in my book. May was part of a government that claimed to be socially liberal (and tories can be either) but her voting record is mixed.

His voting record and public pronouncements show he is an illiberal bigot. He voted for a very restrictive amendment to the abortion act. He voted for allowing discrimination against gay couples, he absented himself from votes for gay marriage, he publicly said that faith healing should be given the same respect as modern medicine etc etc.

Here is his voting record: https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11923/tim_farron/westmorland_and_lonsdale/votes#social

And Theresa May’s.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10426/theresa_may/maidenhead/votes#social

I’m not particularly inclined to defend him, but the criticism is over the top IMO.

ransos
https://stavvers.wordpress.com/2017/04/20/tim-farrons-homophobic-and-anti-choice-voting-history-in-easily-shareable-format/

to be a liberal and vote for discrimination in public service against gays is simply indefensible.

To be intolerant and then to complain that others are being intolerant to you is hypocritical.

to be a liberal and vote for discrimination in public service against gays is simply indefensible.

Who’s defending him? I think that his voting record isn’t quite as portrayed (as my link above shows) and the criticism is over the top. That’s all.

Ransos – and as my link shows his voting record is not what it seems once you look a little closer

Can I say it again. He voted to make it lawful to discriminate against gay people when you are a public service provider. that is an awful position to take no matter what your political persuasion in this day – for a liberal its unforgivable. He thinks it acceptable for public servants to discriminate against gay folk

tjagain – Member

Its not hypocritical for a tory to be illiberal

Though it is hypocritical for May to claim to be a christian and yet run that party.

Ransos – and as my link shows his voting record is not what it seems once you look a little closer

I reviewed all of his votes on this issue. What did I miss?

A waste, there’s a high probability he’s a victim of his parents brainwashing (that’s usually how it goes). Religious indoctrination of children should be made illegal, adults can make there own minds up.

Life of moral turmoil anyone?

Ransos – the times he absented himself. Read the analysis I posted. Gives a very different impression. I am sorry but voting against equal rights on many occasions as he has done is not acceptable nor is absenting yourself because your religious conviction puts you at odds with your parties stance

Dirtydog – IIRC it wasn’t – he found god for himself IIRC

Ransos – the times he absented himself. Read the analysis I posted. Gives a very different impression. I am sorry but voting against equal rights on many occasions as he has done is not acceptable nor is absenting yourself because your religious conviction puts you at odds with your parties stance

He voted for equal rights on six occasions, abstained three times, and against equal rights on one occasion. I don’t defend his actions, but he’s no Theresa May.

No ‘cos he is a hypocrite – leading the liberals from an illiberal position whereas May is a tory running the tory party – her behaviour is normal for her party, his is not

No ‘cos he is a hypocrite – leading the liberals from an illiberal position whereas May is a tory running the tory party – her behaviour is normal for her party, his is not

You think the Lib Dems are socially liberal? Really?

In reality, all of the main UK parties occupy a relatively small space in terms of their social policies.

They are supposed to be.

They are supposed to be.

They’re usually a bit more liberal than the Tories, which isn’t the same thing as actually being liberal. Though it’s worth pointing out that the Tories have introduced liberal legislation (gay marriage) whereas Labour were often keen on authoritarian legislation (RIPA, ID cards). It’s a mistake to conflate parties’ perceived economic policies with their social policies.

Dirtydog – IIRC it wasn’t – he found god for himself IIRC

Aye, according to Google he found God in his teenage years.

not true I did politics A level with him and he was not religous at this point then went to Newcastle Uni and was also not religous there – mate did the same degree as him there
EDIT: just seen a quote where he claims it happened at 18 – if it did he was not very vocal about it and it definitely did not happen at college.
No idea when it happened now.

As for the bible and homosexuality – its not mentioned in the New Testament which is what guides most Christians

so not repealing it at all or mentioning it is proof that jesus wanted us to love homosexuals and the proof is he did not say a thing. Its not going to be the strongest claim

How about this bit from the New testament

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Essentially we live in a time when the majority of western Christians pick ans choose what bits of it they believe from the bit on gays, to contraception to any other myriad of dubious moral guidance it gives. We should not mistake this reality for it not being in the Bible or gods word.

Revelation is particularly scathing about what god will do to those churches that do this….the god of love will be going on a bit of a rampage.

What tyres will he be on – Purgatorys?

And the Twittersphere suggests the LibDems are in talks with the Tories about helping them out…..

Essentially we live in a time when the majority of western Christians pick ans choose what bits of it they believe from the bit on gays, to contraception to any other myriad of dubious moral guidance it gives. We should not mistake this reality for it not being in the Bible or gods word.

But we should celebrate that, yes? Seems a bit churlish to point out that the bible orders christians to kill gay people and use that as a weapon to beat Farron with. Unless you know that he advocates killing gay people, of course.

And the Twittersphere suggests the LibDems are in talks with the Tories about helping them out…..

That would be an act of political genius if they could pull that off.

But we should celebrate that, yes?

we should celebrate that Christians dont follow Christianity? I dont really know tbh but yes its good they are more progressive than the book but the point remains the book is clear on what to do with homosexuals.

Seems a bit churlish to point out that the bible orders christians to kill gay people and use that as a weapon to beat Farron with. Unless you know that he advocates killing gay people, of course.

As he said its either all right or all wrong and he is either a bad christian or a bad liberal
I am not sure anyone actually thinks he wants to kill them so I am not sure what is the point in addressing that straw man.

Personally I dont really see how he squares the two goals of christanity and liberalism whilst staying faithful to them both. The tenants of faith of the doctrines are often at opposite ends- I think he seemed to be hinting at the same point tbh in his speech.

richpenny – thats the trouble – he believes every word of the bible is 100% true

Scotroutes I would be suprised. After all it worked out so well for them last time

richpenny – thats the trouble – he believes every word of the bible is 100% true

Even Ezekiel 23:20?

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

He believes that to

Loads of biblical references to men being above women/ women being subordinate to man

richpenny – thats the trouble – he believes every word of the bible is 100% true

So he’s up for killing gay people, right? If that’s the case, clearly the journalists let him off a bit lightly. That would make a good headline.

As he said its either all right or all wrong and he is either a bad christian or a bad liberal
I am not sure anyone actually thinks he wants to kill them so I am not sure what is the point in addressing that straw man.

How is it a straw man? Aren’t you and TJ claiming that he believes everything in the bible to be literally the word of god? Someone previously posted that bit about smiting gays or somesuch. So does he believe it or not?

Religion and politics in the same thread. If it turns out that Farron has an Audi TT with a log burner in it we might as well close the forum.

RichPenny – Member

Someone previously posted that bit about smiting gays or somesuch. So does he believe it or not?

I think he does. But I also think he’s an intelligent, perceptive, empathetic man living in 2017 who understands that life can be a conflict between your personal convictions and the world you see, and the people you share it with, and that your actions are influenced by more than your faith. And I think he’s done battle with that and tried to make it work for him, and ultimately when he couldn’t find a balance that he was comfortable with as a party leader, resigned rather than try to force his views on others, or give them up and be a hypocrite. “I believe this is wrong but as party leader that doesn’t matter” is a reasonable position but in the end it doesn’t seem to be what he wants.

I don’t agree with his apparent personal position. In fact, I find it a pretty incomprehensible and occasionally an affront to common decency. But in a world of hypocrites, “religious” people who speak piously and act the opposite, people who use faith to justify whatever they personally want to do, and politicians with no moral compass whatsoever, I think he could have done worse. And I think standing down on principle deserves respect. Living with and loving an ancient religion in the modern world must be a daily struggle

I have no time at all for fake religious people- your Theresa Mays who claim to be christian then ignore everything Jesus had to say. Do it, or don’t. I struggle with the “I believe this bit of my religion but not that bit” thing, too- “that bit is the LITERAL WORD OF GOD and you must not stand in my way while I act on it regardless of the harm it may cause. But that bit is allegorical so I’ll ignore it. No don’t question me”. As far as I’m concerned, you either believe your religion or you don’t, if you believe 90% of it you don’t believe it, you’re not a christian (or whatever), you’re just some guy with some stuff, I’ll take you as seriously as a cyclist who only posts on internet forums and never rides. But farron isn’t any of those things, he’s got true faith and he’s trying to make it work.

I am claiming nothing – its a direct quote from the man himself.

Hence his difficulties in reconciling his religion with his party. Another lib dem peer has now publicly criticised him for his views on homosexuality.

Tim Farron was right to resign as Liberal Democrat leader because of his “fundamentally illiberal and prejudiced views” on gay sex, former Lib Dem minister David Laws has said.

You cannot be a leader of a liberal party while holding fundamentally illiberal and prejudiced views which fail to respect our party’s great traditions of promoting equality for all our citizens.”