The Rega Planar 3 is definitely the best in your £300 budget. The RB300 arm it comes with is a stunning arm and can be improved to a level where it matches arms costing well over a £1,000. I had the Origin Live Mk3 which is a modded RB300 arm and it was brilliant and matched my Ittok LVII easily which sonically is very very high rated. The RB250 accepts lots and lots of upgrades so is essentially a better buy than the RB300 but you’ve got to have equally good separates to notice these improvements.
For £300 you’d be very very lucky to find a decent LP12 with arm and cart, in fact I’d say no chance really and what you may find at that price will be very old, need lots of attention (money) and will be sonically shitte. The Rega will sound better situated on a shelf on a wall, preferably a brick wall and not a plaster board one as the sound waves will affect it. A Linn works well on a table, something like a Sound Organisation one but these cost and so need to be added to your budget.
If it was me I’d go with the Rega. Then upgrade it slowly and cheaply with things like the counter-weight balance and maybe a new acrylic platter when funds allow. Have fun and remember to let your ears decide and NOT journo’s or friends who only recommend their own stuff.

Admittedly an LP12 of that vintage may be a bit tired – its like cars, or bikes – whats the mileage. Mind you, mine’s a pre 85 spec, had all the upgrades to to (but excluding the corner plinth bracing). And it was markedly better than a new planar 3 back then. Indeed, I prefered the Linn Axis to the Planar 3, and the Axis was a fair bit inferior to the LP12 of that vintage.

OFC the present Sondek is a long way from a vintage LP12, but thats the joy, you could actually rebuild it/service it yourself, with s/h bits of the bay, in a way you’d never dream of doing with a new item.

My lp12 came with an Ittok LVII, (Valhalla) and were I to pop it on the bay, I’d be lucky to get £400 for it, so it’s certainly achievable if the OP waits a while. And even a 30 year old Sondek line mine is a cracking listen……… it cost a whole terms student grant back then!

Rega carts are mediocre,worth getting something else ASAP ortofon, grado, shure, sumiko, clearaudio etc
Use a sumiko blue point special on mine but something like an ortofon 2mRed would be a good start.

more great advice, thanks all.

Its great hearing the same models and parts cropping up.

Have dozens of tables on watch from the bay now (including a little pink thing) so will be great to see what I may end up with. Moving to new property in March (detached) so will be fixing via shelf to solid wall.

Record fair tomorrow morning for me!

curse the snow, record fair cancelled!

Had a chance to see a Debut Carbon in the flesh at Sevenoaks Hifi. Nice looking tone arm, but you can clearly tell where its been built to a price point. Sharp edges and plasticy bits.

Still fancy hearing one, but starting to like the idea of buying a mint 2nd hand higher spec version. Very tempted to break the budget slightly for a lovely Planar 25!

http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/309/

Put one of these in a nice plinth and give it a decent arm and it is very good:

Technics Sp10

My mate used to put them in layered Corian plinths and his own one uses an SME V with modest Denon DL304 cartridge. He has a very good CD system, but on the same album the sp10 is so much nicer.

When he was selling them he would invite people to bring round their LP12s, etc for comparison – and they would buy the Technics.

Some of it might be the SME arm as well though as I have an Origin Live modded RB250 on mine and it is nowhere near as good 🙁

I like Rega cartridges. Good value too.
The Elys 2 on mine replaced an Ortofon MC.
It’s miles better.
Infinitely better than the aptly named Linn K9 too.

Had my Rega for 20 odd years, great bit of kit.
Does sound better on a shelf though.

http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/309/

the very same review that has turned my attention on a 25..

Sounds like a great prospect with the RB600 arm and possibiity of future upgrades, acrylic plate etc.

Cant find a UK original RRP though, any thought on original cost? Im guessing at £1000-£1200.
In which case coupled with ability to punch above its weight, a barely used one at £400 may well be a sound investment.

Ha, ‘sound investment’

The SP-10 is interesting, Its good to see a few curve balls thrown into the mix

slimjim78 how old are you?

I found having my ears syringed, was the best value Hi-Fi upgrade I have ever done!

BTW, I swapped over from a Revolver Rebel to a Pro-Ject Genie 3 (£200) last year, sounds fine to me and looks quite neat, not that, that is a thing for me.

Sounds great to my clean ears, if anything to clean 😉

haha!
34, not sure how deaf that makes me?

The Rega P25 is a safer bet than making up an Sp10 – the SME arm to do it justice is > £1500

The SP10 is a broadcast turntable, but the bigger broadcast turntables, like the EMTs, go for crazy money

A Rega would be a safe bet however I’d be tempted to try and get hold of a 2nd hand LP12. I paid less that £300 for mine ’cause the Ebay seller didn’t want to post and he was nearby. Mine is an early one with a SME arm and sounds wonderful.

On the Rega the RB250 is a better arm than the RB300 apparently, or has more potential. It’s is down to the bearing arrangement.

I’ve got a modified RB250 on my other turntable and it does sound good. That was also 2nd hand – on a Thorens TD160B and is also very nice sounding.

And look what you can do to an RB250:

Ha ha, I have the SME V arm on my Orbe and its stunning but as stated isn’t in the budget range. The SP10 is good but the trouble with most Linns and what their owners don’t realise is that they are set up badly and they’ve become used to its sound. LP12’s do “go off” and a proper service with a respected dealer will soon have it working as it should.

TurnerGuy, interesting your mention of the SP10, I’ve just found this:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/190735-sp-10-mkii-next-project-5.html
The reason I was looking was the tone-arm; it’s a Zeta, one of which I also have, mounted on a Logic DM-101.

CountZero, I had a Zeta on my LP12 back in the mid Eighties. I originally had the usual Ittok/Asak on my Valhalla Linn but upgraded to the Zeta with a Koetsu Black which is the cart I use now on my SME V arm. The Zeta is a fabulous arm but the bearings are a problem if buying now and they are hard to find in mint condition. It’s hard to judge the sound compared to what I own now but I’m sure if new it would definitely give the V a run for its money and would probably cost the same to make anyway.

Just had a look at a Zeta on eBay that sold in December. Went for £410, more than they cost new… 😯

Yes but I paid £375 for my Ittok LVII new and the Ekos new now is ridiculous money so I reckon a Zeta new would be well over £1k so £410 isn’t bad especially if its low mileage and has good bearings. Tonally they’re more neutral than Linn arms and are easier to match a decent MC cart with. I had another Linn a while back and tried find a Zeta but I kept thinking will it perform as well as a newer arm or am I being misguided by nostalgic memories lol. I never found one and I got an Origin Live Silver instead.

this looks like a good prospect. not heard of the cartridge, any good?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190784761668?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

TG – where do you begin to go about upgrading an RB250 like that?

The SP10 is good

Here’s that SP10 I mentioned:

The plinth is made of Corian and wood layers, and then has sorbothane suspended layers at the base – the more the better…

I had the plinth I bought from him drilled for a Rega mount which I almost regret as the SME sounds so good, but I am going to try one of those ‘supercharged’ RB250s above.

His CD system was fronted with the excellent Teac P30 CD transport (£3k) and a custom built tube DAC – but the SP10 was all over it for musicalality and smoothness/liquidity.

TG – where do you begin to go about upgrading an RB250 like that?

The guys that does them is Jeff at

audiomods

I met him through the yahoo LS3/5a group as he is a fellow fan – I think I took my Cicable external LS3/5a crossovers round to his house for him to try, and an M-Audio SuperDAC/Monarchy 48/96 DIP combination I was using for an external DAC (now sitting here unused).

At that time he was just starting to experiment with drilling holes in RB250s to see what he could do with dampening them, but now I see he has gone the whole hog with them. The turntable he used is pictured on his site:

He also brought some Pye HF25 tube amps he was restoring round to my house to try with some Spendor SP1s I had at the time – they sounded absolutely fantastic – not only did the female vocalist sound incredible but you could smell her perfume…

Those amps come from the 1950s and have a massive bandwidth – there is masses of technical detail in their manuals. I think Pye knew what they were doing…

this looks like a good prospect

The Axis was their basic level turntable, the arm is pretty basic, and Stanton are a huge name in cartridges but mostly for their DJ stuff.

Unlike an LP12 you won’t be able to upgrade far with the Axis, and nowhere with the arm, which probably isn’t as good as an RB250 in the first place.

That Rega P25 looks like a much better bet.

You don’t want to get too carried away – try the Rega and then if you think you want to go further you can sell it for good money.

If you end up with a big investment on the front end you will need a good amp/pre-amp to hear it, plus a better cartridge, and then a better phono stage, etc. It could be the start of a money pit which, at the end, will only have increased your enjoyment of the system by a small percentage.

Thanks for the pics, that tube amp looks brilliant. Ashamed to say ive never had the pleasure of listening to one. Ive also had half an eye on several tube phone stages, love the idea of one but not exactly sure what id be gaining/sacrificing.

TG – you clearly seem to know and are passionate about your audio – if I manage to stretch to this P25 or similar, I hope you dont mind me badgering you for more system partnership advice?!
I know exactly what you mean about the upgrade money pit, I hope my trusty old Cambridge Audio and Mission set up will let me hear the P25 sing at least enough to keep me smiling!

not only did the female vocalist sound incredible but you could smell her perfume…

And that’s the sort of statement that the common sense man laughs at about people who spend thousands on hifi!!!!! I’ve no doubt her voice sounded very good indeed but “smell” – er speakers generate sound waves not smells and it’s your brain making those senses up which then shows how powerful the brain is and CAN and DOES trick you into believing that one hifi component is better than another. I listen to music, I can enjoy it on an iPhone and my hifi and my senses can be strong using both as some songs make the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end. The man who pays £50 for his system and gets as much enjoyment as someone who’s paid thousands is the one who’s best off as he can then spend his money on lots and lots of things that will make his life better and I guarantee you 100% that lots of expensive hifi is bought by people who are out to impress people they don’t like or don’t even know.

it’s your brain making those senses up which then shows how powerful the brain is

that was somewhat tongue in cheek, it was meant to indicate how realistic it all was and, if you closed your eyes, you could almost think that she was sitting in front of you.

But are you the same Hadge that has posted above about his hifi – this post seems out of character – if you have had the kit you list above and spent the money on that kit, then I thought that you would be aware of how good systems can sound?

100% that lots of expensive hifi is bought by people who are out to impress people

not mine – if I wanted to impress I would have that teres turntable, not my ugly Technics SP10. Just having a Technics turntable would cause derision from most hifi people.

TG – you clearly seem to know and are passionate about your audio

I haven’t as much contemporary experience as many on this group so am maybe not the best person to ask.

I am solidly in the LS3/5a and Quad amp camp, although I have a rather lovely Music First TVC pre-amp now as Quad preamps are a bit mediocre.

Matching gear can be a bit of a crap-shoot, and what seems to work at the dealers might not work at home, due to room acoustics, etc. And often the dealer doesn’t have the same gear as you for the rest of the setup.

So it is best to find a dealer that will lend you stuff, or has a cooling off period.

The other option is ebay where you can buy and then sell again if it is not right.

Plus – didn’t you mention Pink Floyd, I am a bit of a soul/jazzfunk head so my priorities for a system – good midrange – might not be yours. So following my recommendations might not be a good plan…

I’ve bought things because its my money, my hobby and I enjoy music, which hobby wise is the same as someone buying new parts for their mtb really. I agree about the perception about bring in the room etc which is the way the producers hope.
I thought your comment was tongue in cheek but honestly the doubters will thrive on those sort of comments and yes I do believe some expensive kit really does produce stunning sound but trying get that over to doubters or those that aren’t interested is very hard to get across as such. I do believe though our senses trick us and I also believe hifi is like fine wine and food, some people get it and some don’t.
By the way the SP10 you have really looks the part and hope it sounds every bit as good as it looks. Love your choice of arm too 🙂

Love your choice of arm too

that’s not my arm, it’s the one on my mates 🙁

I have some tinnitus (tubes too narrow – needs constant exercise like cycling to keep them in good shape), so I know all about the brain making up sounds…

But no matter what the shape of my ears, I want my system to make my music sound as realistic and pleasing as possible.

I was aware of the power of the mind every since i read a story from some years ago about a test Wharfedale did.

3 pairs of identical Wharfedale Diamond speakers, one pair red, one pair white, one pair yellow.

The consensus of the listening panel was that the red pair sounded warm, the white pair bright, and the yellow pair was lean.

Just having the volume slightly higher when you switch components (more sensitive speakers for example) will make you think it sounds better, without necessarily noticing that it is louder.

I listen to an iPod every day for approx 4 to 5 hours, im certainly not a hifi snob. But I am well aware that careful investment in hi-fi components can reveal a level of detail and clarity in your favourite albums that you didnt even realise was possible.
That ‘hair standing on end’ moment you mentioned.. it becomes more frequent, as well as that ear to ear grin when you realise that this is how its supposed to sound – and your senses are being bombarded.

Of course its all to easy to get carried away with the marketing, but for me its about the opposite of trying to impress people, its about investing my spare hard earned in the best possible system that I can afford – to acheive total aural pleasure!

plus its a great hobby!

I listen to an iPod every day for approx 4 to 5 hours, im certainly not a hifi snob.

I listen to a Cowon i10 most workdays as well, through Shure SE535s phones.

Even though it is a DAB recording the Shures, which are expensive, make it sound good.

I have a DAB radio in my system as well – it sounded pretty flat until the addition of that Music First TVC preamp, which is lovely and smooth but also seems to have more resolution than my old passive pre-amp or my Tact 2.2X.

ive been contemplating a set of clear 215/315/535’s for a long time, would be really keen to experience how good they sound.

I really lik the idea of swappable cables as I get through a fiar amount of ‘normal’ earphones after the cables harden and/or split.

Really enjoying the braided cable on my awfully trendy Marley in ears at the moment. Keen to see how well they hold up.

So the 535’s have justified the asking price for you? What do they have over the lower end models?

So the 535’s have justified the asking price for you?

yes, considering the number of hours I listen to them.

previously I had Etymotic ER6is which weren’t great – had to use a lot of EQ to get a balanced sound – otherwise thing and bright – and I had a good seal with them – enough to block out 20 snoring civil engineers whilst trying to sleep in a hut in the lake district.

then Shure EC3s – pretty good but cables went in the end.

then Shure SE530s – very nice midrange

then Shure SE535s after getting the SE530 repaired by Shure, which is basically a discount on a new pair.

The Cowon has an MP3 enhance function which is useful, otherwise I don’t use any EQ.

You see quite a few people with them now.

Beware of cheap sources though and possible copies.

I have a pair of SE215’s and they are pretty good. They have superb bass but rely on a good seal which feels slightly odd to start with. Midrange is superb but treble is a bit dull although detailed. This gives a sound which is not at all fatiguing compared to a brighter balance.the lead loops over the ear which combined with the tight seal means they stay in place well. External noise is almost completely sealed out.

sounds pretty much exactly what im looking for, will try to get my hands on a pair this year.

How are the 535’s worth so much more than the others in the range?

How are the 535’s worth so much more than the others in the range?

They are effectively a 3 way design – 3 armatures. Just better.

Shures are often quoted as a bit dull in the treble, but I would say that a lot of other phones/speakers are too bright 🙂

ive been contemplating a set of clear 215/315/535’s for a long time, would be really keen to experience how good they sound.

I really lik the idea of swappable cables as I get through a fiar amount of ‘normal’ earphones after the cables harden and/or split.
I’ve got the 215’s, had them for around two years now, and I love them, the replaceable cables are brilliant at the price. I use triple-flange eartips on mine, to get the best seal, I’ve never been able to get a seal using regular eartips. I’m considering shelling out on some custom eartips, but the current cost of £112/pair is a bit daunting.
I had the Etymotics as well, after reading lots of positive reviews, even got custom eartips for those, but I never warmed to them, they were never engaging. The Shure’s, though, are fantastic for the money.
Really enjoying this thread, btw, my Zeta was bought brand new, about ’82-ish. I paid about £270 or so, because I got 30% off, working in a hifi shop! It hasn’t been used in years, the speed control on the t/table is on the fritz, but I couldn’t part with it. I really ought to get it all cleaned up and see if I can get it fixed.

I’ve got one of those Logic Tempo turntables a couple of pages back with Datum tonearm & MC10 super cartridge, had it from new,thought about upgrading to a Plana 3 but in it’s day it was about equal to a Planar 2 so would probably have to shell out a good bit more now

CountZero-do you use the Shure triple-Flange or copies? Do they come in different sizes?

I have a Michell Syncro with Moth tonearm, owned it for 25years or so, very nice kit IMO

I have a Michell Syncro with Moth tonearm, owned it for 25years or so, very nice kit IMO

thats interesting, as I have half an eye on this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150980040202?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

was blown out of the water on the Planar 25 I wanted.. The Syncro may end up a rebound purchase