Bad actors stoking hate again (Southport Stabbings)

Lots of folk on this thread making stuff up…

Their belief that they are right and correct has overruled any notions about socially acceptable behaviour and perhaps even legality. The cause/belief is outside of the commonly accepted norms

Sounds like a spurious reason to me.

One lot literally want to save Humanity from itself,

another spurious justification for criminal damage.

That’s just on this page

Those are not examples of anyone justifying committing criminal damage.

Just a couple of suggestions of what motives JSO

Just a couple of suggestions of what motives JSO

And some selective editing out of my speculation on the motives of the EDL/NF lot.

That wasn’t me providing justification for anything, just noting that anyone who riots or protests has by definition decided to behave outside of socially accepted norms… More a statement of fact than any sort of justifications.

Back to the point on proportionate sentencing, it’s notable that about 100 years ago some jumped up dickhead stood on a table fired, a gun in the air and made an apparently rousing speech in the Bürgerbräukeller beer hall. The coup that he was attempting to whip up that night ultimately failed, but many of the same key ingredients were there, booze of course, a disaffected populace, a scapegoated minority and far right ghouls, grifters and money men waiting in the wings.

Despite being found guilty of treason he only got 5 years, of which he served just 1, just enough time to consolidate his ideas into mein kampf. 2 decades later the same angry tosser was plunging a continent into war and conducting industrial scale genocide…

Given the historical precedent, just how lenient should we be with rioting Fascists and the people that incite them?

another spurious justification for criminal damage.

Where does it say that?

Yep, nobody is justify JSO and their activities.  Yes the cause is clearly a major concern for the whole world and it would be good if everyone believed that but the stupid stuff they get up to just looks like stupid stuff to most people (me included) and doesn’t do a thing to help the cause.  Yes they get headlines but no the right headlines and I don’t believe anteing they have done has made a bit of difference in peoples minds and definitely not in any governments or businesses.

As for sentencing, that is tricky as causing mass disruption to a million or so people is not great for one reason and terrorising muslim people is also not great for another reason.

I also would not put most of them in prison (first time or minimal previous convictions) I would setup something along the lines of a de radicalisation process where they go in believing all sorts of shit and come out not believing all sorts of shit and actually understanding/comprehending/appreciating different races and religions.  May give them a better chance in future than being in prison for a few years which could just make it worse.

and the actual harms JSO seem willing to inflict are mostly material rather than looking to kill or injure strangers.

I’m not so sure that’s true. Hallam was on bail for trying to fly drones into Heathrow at the time of his trial, I don’t think you can do that without accepting that your plan may involve killing people, even indirectly.

jso to commit criminal damage and vandalize works of art and sports events.

I’m not sure any actual damage was caused. They used water soluble paint, that easily washes off, or powder that can be hoovered up.

All it really comes down to is disruption. Someone has to clean up the paint with a pressure washer, so it goes harmlessly down a drain, or operate a hoover.

I suppose you could even look at it that it gives a cleaner some overtime, and is good for hoover bag and other manufacturers.

“Right, nip down the hire shop and hire us a pressure washer”. Thats sort of good for the hire company.

.

JSO – Keeping people in a job and promoting industry :-D

Or how about all the people who slept in for work, and phoned the boss saying,  sorry, Just Stop Oil have blocked the road as a very viable excuse.

I’m not sure any actual damage was caused

Yes it has been. The frame on the work of art has been damaged. The painting is ok because of the screen.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/national-gallery-west-end-just-stop-oil-london-southwark-crown-court-b2451170.html

The damage to planes at the stanstead stunt is estimated to cost £50k to fix

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/just-stop-oil-stansted-private-planes-taylor-swift-b2565741.html

Then there is stonehenge
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/stonehenge-just-stop-oil-protest-paint-jso-b2565295.html

that’s just 3 examples in recent weeks

But that is concentrating on the criminal damage aspect which as we know the riots have also done a lot of.  So removing that bit how does the impact of terrorism vs mass disruption compare?  Answer = it doesn’t.

I know. That’s because criminal damage was the piont I was making. The comments were that jso weren’t committing criminal damage and I was giving example that show they are. Both groups are committing criminal damage and should be treated the same. I agree the rioters are also committing more serious crimes as well which should be treated according

This is the consequence of far-right rioting, which of course was the intention of the far-right rioters :

Some 75% said they were very worried about their safety now, compared with 16% before the riots earlier this month that were sparked by misinformation in the wake of the Southport knife attack.

https://news.sky.com/story/three-quarters-of-muslims-worried-about-their-safety-after-far-right-riots-poll-says-13198966

I know for myself from the local Muslim dominated WhatsApp groups that I am on that at the height of the rioting Muslim women were particularly fearful as they are easy to identify and target. And these were women living in reasonably safe London, far away from the far-right riots.

From the above link:

“What’s really worrying me is when women are calling up saying: ‘We were abused, and we were with our children’.”

So. How does that compare with the actions of JSO? Are 75% of motorists now very worried about their safety because of the actions of JSO?

The idea that both JSO and far-right rioters deserve similar sentences because of similar levels of criminality is clearly absurd.

I agree the rioters are also committing more serious crimes as well which should be treated Accordingly

Also: none of the rioters had blue hair or wore dungarees. Both these factors are well known to carry an additional premium when judges are considering sentencing

Whatever the sentences handed out don’t lose sight of the fact JSO are on the right side of history. In the not too distant future they’ll be seen in the same way as Rosa Parks refusing to give up a bus seat, raised fists at an Olympics, my great aunt suffragette writing “votes for women” on an Mp’s wall, De Gaule’s call from London… and all the other defiant gestures that were on the side of right and good.

fact JSO are on the right side of history. In the not too distant future they’ll be seen in the same way as Rosa Parks refusing to give up a bus seat, raised fists at an Olympics, my great aunt suffragett

Thats hilarious. There is no chance of jso been seen as anything but vandals. Climate change will be resolved by serious scientists convincing government to take action. Not by a bunch of hypocritical protestors

Climate change will be resolved by serious scientists convincing government to take action.

On what basis are you making this claim? I ask because climate scientists have been saying the same thing for the last forty years.

Climate change will be resolved by serious scientists convincing government to take action.

How are these serious scientists going to do that……..by staging protests?

I am impressed  you believe that “climate change will be resolved”, btw, what is that impressive level of optimism based on? Currently it is an ongoing and quickly deteriorating situation.

The climate scientists have convinced governments they need to take action but the instant governements do they have a mini-revolution on their hands. The French gilet jaune protests started with a woman starting the movement to protest about eco-taxes on diesel and the gilet jaune tract I got was very specifically anti-EV, anti-wind power and pro cheap diesel, petrol and gas. The problem isn’t the heads of state, it’s the people. In particular the vocal climate sceptics on social media such as STW where only very recently have the wilfully ignorant gone quiet(er).

The politicians know where we’re headed but that doing anything about it is political suicide. Check out Labour party promises and then compare it with what they actually do. Theresa May promised “net-zero” by when was it?2050. What did she do to achieve that? Nothing.

Stopping oil isn’t going to happen not because of what the government decides or does, it’s because of what you me and everyone else decides and does. It’s only when billions of people take personal responsability that anything significant will change. For that the existential threat will have to be real to them, and by then it will be to late.

 Climate change will be resolved by serious scientists convincing government to take action.

How’s that working out so far?

The problem isn’t the heads of state, it’s the people.

They’re the very people JSO antagonize the most, so not only are they being a royal self promoting pain in the backside they are making people less likely to be sympathetic to their aims, making it harder for governments to implement necessary but unpopular reforms. Go JSO.

They’re the very people JSO antagonize the most, so not only are they being a royal self promoting pain in the backside they are making people less likely to be sympathetic to their aims, making it harder for governments to implement necessary but unpopular reforms. Go JSO.

So the alternative is … ?

So why the numerous complaints from the people of STW about the harsh sentencing of JSOs, Stumpjon? They’re raising awareness, provoking debate, and as with the civil rights movement “people” will at some point change. Back in the early 70s I don’t remember seeing huge anti-fascist demos when skin heads were beating immigrants up. Today the “bad actors” are having their arses handed to them.

Attitudes are changing and it isn’t the scientists alone who are provoking the change. It’s the activists who are doing the most to get the message across. So some don’t like the message, but it needs to be so big and loud they can’t ignore it.

People don’t know instinctively when they’re on the wrong side, they need convincing.

So the alternative is … ?

Not behaving like dicks and stoking the culture war.

So why the numerous complaints from the people of STW about the harsh sentencing of JSOs

Same old people applying double standards? I notice there are also quite a lot of single track forumites who are quite happy to see JSO getting tough sentences.

So some don’t like the message, but it needs to be so big and loud they can’t ignore it.

Gluing yourself to the M25 is not getting across a positive message. I’m not against the principle, even if in the UK people aren’t personally worried about global warming we would all benefit from a move to renewables to reduce energy costs in the long run and keep out of the global fight for fossil fuel.

Maybe JSO should be much more actively lobbying politicians, finance institutions and the like (bit not with orange coloured shite).

Maybe JSO should be much more actively lobbying politicians, finance institutions and the like

or writing letters to their local newspapers, yeah, that could work. I’m sure every activist in history encountered people accusing them of “acting like dicks” – luckily they ignored them so women have the vote, black people can ride at front of buses and so on.

in the UK people aren’t personally worried about global warming

You have to really have worked at it to be this badly informed.

I can just imagine the sucking of teeth that would have been going on at the time of the Suffragettes.

“They are just antagonising people. Why don’t they lobby their MPs instead?”

It’s the activists who are doing the most to get the message across

Nope. It’s the fact that the mainstream has taken up the issue. The BBC is doing far more to a raise awareness than someone glueing themselves to a motorway. JSO are a godsend to climate change deniers.

The BBC have been hopeless, sitting on the fence before finally coming around to the most benign scenarios rather the more likely rapidly accelerating end of the spectrum. From 2014 I give you the BBC “Impacts page”.

Scientists around the globe are looking at all the evidence around climate change and using supercomputer models to come up with predictions for our future environment and weather.

However, the next stage of that work, which is just as important, is looking at the knock-on effects of potential changes. For example, are we likely to see an increase in precipitation and sea levels? Does this mean there will be an increase in flooding and what can we do to protect ourselves from that?

How will our health be affected by climate change, how will agricultural practices change and how will wildlife cope? And what will the effects on coral be?

And while it may be controversial some would argue that climate change could bring with it positives as well as negatives.

Wishy washier and less commital it would be hard to write. The BBC is finally reacting somewhat late and mildly to the alarm signals from the activists. For over 10 years now the two major French channels have been including climatic change in the weather reports pretty much every night.

An Inconvenient Truth came out in 2006, clearly no-one at the Beeb went to see it.

I am impressed  you believe that “climate change will be resolved”, btw, what is that impressive level of optimism based on?

I dont really care if it gets resolved or not. I will be long dead before it becomes a problem and we don’t have kids so no next generation for me to worry about. I also don’t think that it’s that bigger problem. If the human race wipes itself out well so what. The planet will be fine. Other species willl develop and a new apex predictor will emerge. Why should the planet stay in the right condition for human life to flourish.

So why the numerous complaints from the people of STW about the harsh sentencing of JSOs, Stumpjon? They’re raising awareness, provoking debate, and as with the civil rights movement “people” will at some point change.

No they aren’t they are just pissing off a lot of people and giving those with their heads in the sand all the ammunition they need. JSO haven’t changed or moved anything aim the right direction

 I dont really care if it gets resolved or not

Yet you told us it would be resolved by senior scientists. Odd to be so certain of something you don’t care about.

What other types of selfishness would be so easy to admit to?

I don’t know any disabled people so if I park in a disabled space I’m only affecting people I don’t know, so ****’em?

I dont really care if it gets resolved or not. I will be long dead before it becomes a problem and we don’t have kids so no next generation for me to worry about. I also don’t think that it’s that bigger problem. If the human race wipes itself out well so what.

Ah….. it’s all starting to make sense now. You couldn’t give a monkeys about climate change because you believe that it won’t affect you.

So therefore you obviously have no sympathy for JSO and you are perfectly happy to see them rot in jail, just as long as it doesn’t affect you.

I dont really care if it gets resolved or not. I will be long dead before it becomes a problem and we don’t have kids so no next generation for me to worry about.

Sometimes I wish that I was ignorant like this. Must make life fairly simple in one sense.

FM

4 likes for you Ed.

how can people be so blinkered?

I can just imagine the sucking of teeth that would have been going on at the time of the Suffragettes.

“They are just antagonising people. Why don’t they lobby their MPs instead?”

Perhaps if they got their husbands to lobby MPs they wouldn’t have so antagonised ordinary people and damaged their own cause so much.

may I suggest that, if you want to make these constant little digs at a group based upon them being (percieved as) mostly middle to upper-middle class, STW might not be the least awkward place to do so.

Let’s not beat about the bush. STW is the epitome of middle class conformism and corporate sycophancy.

Nothing stokes more ire than Intellectual Property theft or a bricked up window in a conservation area.

Chrismac enjoys the trolling, ignore him and he’ll go away

So therefore you obviously have no sympathy for JSO and you are perfectly happy to see them rot in jail, just as long as it doesn’t affect you

Four and five years. Hardly rotting in jail, they’ll be out in two (and a half) years.

The only case of those JSO mentioned^^ that’s been sentenced is the largest value in £££ and an attempt to bring everything in and around the M25 to gridlock. £770k economic cost + £1mn+ for the Met alone; four other police forces as well, say another £2mn??

2 1/2 years is hardly stringent for costing the UK £4mn, not to mention the personal costs to ordinary people

We’ll see how the painting and Stonehenge sentencing goes later in the year

Four and five years. Hardly rotting in jail, they’ll be out in two (and a half) years.

No it isn’t . I wasn’t referring to the sentences passed, I was referring chrismac’s attitude.

His attitude appears to be that if something doesn’t affect him he isn’t bothered, so why would he care if they got 30 years? Just as long as their activities doesn’t disrupt his life.

He hadn’t previously announced that he doesn’t care about climate change and that he is isn’t concerned about other people’s children. Now that he has it explains the whole basis of his argument.

TBH people forget the suffragettes were a bit naughty and it wasn’t particularly all peaceful.

https://artsandculture.google.com/story/suffragette-bombings-city-of-london-corporation/2wVxgPLt7aWiKg?hl=en

I’m not anti or pro on JSO, but you do need people to protest for environmental issues as when it’s too late,it’s too late :-(

I am impressed  you believe that “climate change will be resolved”, btw, what is that impressive level of optimism based on?

I dont really care if it gets resolved or not. I will be long dead before it becomes a problem and we don’t have kids so no next generation for me to worry about.

So why are you so bothered by protestors damaging property that isn’t yours?