OP was that “prayer for today” on R4 (have they rebranded thought for today?)? If so, I checked it out on I-player and had a very different interpretation. Both Deistic and non-Deistic religions seem to me to be emphasising that we are ALL very singificant. The former to the notion of an ultimate creator and the latter through our central place in a larger spiritual unity. Indeed for both, it is our very significance that gives purpose and meaning to life.

Outside religion our significance and the meaning of life – why are we here? – are also pretty central. So not sure why you are so worried. Carry on making a difference!

In the same way that we may feel insignificant in the face of the universe, so may a dung beetle in the middle of the expanse of the savanna. But both play a vital role in their own way – and that IS significant.

Nova or supernova – not really neutron stars

Supernova caused by the collapse or collision of neutron stars.

So, it’s correct for cosmologists to say “Our locale, large as it seems, is physically minute compared with the size of the universe”. But not to make a metaphysical assertion about the (in)significance of human existence.

So, it’s correct for cosmologists to say “Our locale, large as it seems, is physically minute compared with the size of the universe”. But not to make a metaphysical assertion about the (in)significance of human existence.

Nailed it.

Supernova caused by the collapse or collision of neutron stars.

A neutron star is what you get left over after a supernova. Star goes nova, blasts off huge amounts of material, the core compresses into a neutron star (or black hole if you’re lucky).

How can we be insignificant to the universe when we are not even the same type of thing?!?!

Human = persons
Universe = space and everything not human

A neutron star is what you get left over after a supernova. Star goes nova, blasts off huge amounts of material, the core compresses into a neutron star (or black hole if you’re lucky).

Yep

White dwarfs can combine to form Supernovas but neutron stars are stellar remnants

How can we be insignificant to the universe when we are not even the same type of thing?!?!

Human = persons
Universe = space and everything not human

So dogs are universe? And eyelash mites?

Would white dwarfs combine like that? I thought it was more accretion of material in a binary system, causing sudden carbon burning?

Anyhow, how has this conversation got so far without anyone linking to this?

Human = persons
Universe = space and everything not human

Well that really touches on one of the deep philosophical notions about the nature of “being” vs the nature of stuff.

Would white dwarfs combine like that? I thought it was more accretion of material in a binary system, causing sudden carbon burning?

Could do. Accretion is the more common cause of supernova. A white dwarf in a binary system gathers material from its companion. As its mass approaches the Chandrasekhar limit it goes bang.

But two white dwarf in a binary system could also combine, if the new object has a mass above the Chandrasekhar limit then it would go bang too.

I’m pretty sure the universe would still exist without us

Without us nobody would know it existed.

human = energy
universe = energy

unfitgeezer highlights a valid point that we imagine, very strongly, that we are individual “beings” or agencies, outwith and acting upon the physical environment. We even talk about our bodies as separate from our “selves”.

Perhaps if we didn’t do this, we would realise our material insignificance, and let ourselves die. Isn’t this Douglas Adams’ point in comedy construct known as: The Total Perspective Vortex (powered by fairy cake)?

A neutron star is what you get left over after a supernova. Star goes nova, blasts off huge amounts of material, the core compresses into a neutron star (or black hole if you’re lucky).

Yep, you are right – confusing myself. I was right the first time around: Most of the elements that make up us humans were formed at the core of neutron stars, following the star going supernova.

As supernovae are amongst the most powerful events in the universe, I’d say these elements are pretty significant in the grand scheme of things.

unfitgeezer highlights a valid point that we imagine, very strongly, that we are individual “beings” or agencies, outwith and acting upon the physical environment. We even talk about our bodies as separate from our “selves”.

This for me is where it begins to get interesting. If we recognise that there is no true mind/body split and that mind is immanent to ‘material’, rather than denigrate ‘experience’ it seems sensible to raise the status of ‘material’ (and the ways in which complex arrangements of ‘stuff’ are capable of reflection and judging significance).

As its mass approaches the Chandrasekhar limit it goes bang.

Same happened to me after christmas dinner

This for me is where it begins to get interesting. If we recognise that there is no true mind/body split and that mind is immanent to ‘material’, rather than denigrate ‘experience’ it seems sensible to raise the status of ‘material’ (and the ways in which complex arrangements of ‘stuff’ are capable of reflection and judging significance).

I have heard that latest research suggests that the concept of “self” is a false description – that of singular and contained consciousness – derived from loosely-connected areas of the brain each with a different functionality,. One of which is the task of conceptualisation – ie: inventing “significance”, and naming it…

(The sort of thing that describes nature as being in “harmony”, when close examination suggests bloody chaos and violence).

unfitgeezer highlights a valid point that we imagine, very strongly, that we are individual “beings” or agencies, outwith and acting upon the physical environment. We even talk about our bodies as separate from our “selves”.

“it is essential for humans to use the personal pronoun. It divides the universe into two parts. The darkness behind the eyes, where the little voice is, and everything else” – Thief of Time, Terry Pratchett

I was right the first time around: Most of the elements that make up us humans were formed at the core of neutron stars, following the star going supernova.

You are right that elements are formed in the supernova, but they’re dispersed into the rest of the galaxy by the force of the supernova – the neutron star is what’s left, that’s not where the elements form. In ways a neutron star is really one giant atom, not made of elements at all.

I have heard that latest research suggests that the concept of “self” is a false description – that of singular and contained consciousness – derived from loosely-connected areas of the brain each with a different functionality,. One of which is the task of conceptualisation – ie: inventing “significance”, and naming it…

The idea of consciousness seen this way comes from Descartes and his mind/body split, and I think it’s uncontroversial to say this has been widely rejected. There’s a fair bit in both the philosophy literature and neuroscientific literature on how the body (including brain) works in parallel with the mind. In philosophy these kinds of ideas are found, perhaps first, in people like Duns Scotus and then some time later Spinoza. The best accessible writing on neuroscience, IMHO, is Antonio Damasio (although have a look at Daniel Dennett for a more philosophical take on neuroscience).

The question about the self is a tough one, but certainly some neuroscientists would probably argue quite strongly there is a self, but that this is materially configured as an outcome of our image-making systems, experience and ongoing reactions within the nervous system.

A human life is pretty much as long as the life of the universe so far. Relatively speaking of course.

The question about the self is a tough one

This is a pretty good laymans introduction to the science of self.

Spin = may get that book, ta !

one of the ways i look at it, how many people do you know the names of, there are c7billion alive today, how many through out time.

How many mean anything, how many achieved anything that anyone actually remembers?

As for significance, one of the big failings of people is the failure to realise that we are not separate to nature, we are attached to this planet, our fate is, for now, linked to the fate of the earth. Just one asteroid and the human race would be no more, everything achieved, every life nothing.