it signals needless complexity in the system

I think the auditing that caught her is designed to stop athletes gaming the system, so complexity is probably unavoidable. For example, if you keep changing your test window at the last minute, the pattern will be spotted and you will be investigated.

I think the auditing that caught her is designed to stop athletes gaming the system, so complexity is probably unavoidable. For example, if you keep changing your test window at the last minute, the pattern will be spotted and you will be investigated.

Good point, I guess test location could be different to overnight location if an athlete listed a training facility or similar rather than hotel or home.

So am I being naive in thinking some kind of “have you made a mistake here?” check might be useful where the overnight and morning test locations are thousands of miles apart? Is there a potential loophole there?

Tax. Office in Oz is looking at the “are you sure” type stuff. Apparently it deters people being a little cheeky with the truth. Sounds like as the issue was picked up by a manual audit the 2 systems can’t even talk to each other. Anyway I’m off flog my tinder style app to ukad “bing” your tester is nearby, meet me in the toilets I’ll bring the cup and needles 😉 😉

As I wrote in an earlier post – the system shouldn’t permit an athlete to enter multiple locations for a given time. Data entry is naturally prone to error so everything should be done to minimise the chances of such errors. It’s a bit harder to automatically check that two locations aren’t impossible to be in due to the time taken to get from one to the other.

Worth noting that CAS only let her off because of the 1st test. They didn’t accept her excuses for missing the 2nd & 3rd. Which begs the question are they still ‘live’ and is she only one missed test away from a ban still?

inrng as usual has a good take on it all:

Inrng: Lizzy Armistead

Which begs the question are they still ‘live’ and is she only one missed test away from a ban still?

I would assume so, at least until October this year.

inrng as usual has a good take on it all:

Linked to in my first post 🙂 Though some of the comments are actually worth a trawl through.

As I wrote in an earlier post – the system shouldn’t permit an athlete to enter multiple locations for a given time. Data entry is naturally prone to error so everything should be done to minimise the chances of such errors. It’s a bit harder to automatically check that two locations aren’t impossible to be in due to the time taken to get from one to the other.

But its not multiple locations for a given time; it’s multiple locations for similar times. Very different. i.e. overnight at your home in wigan, 10am-11am at the Manchester velodrome. There could however be some sort of failsafe that calculates the straight line distance between the two and if over a ‘normal’ distance gets the athlete to confirm this was not an error – ‘Did you really want to enter a test location 680km from your overnight location? y/n’

There could however be some sort of failsafe that calculates the straight line distance between the two and if over a ‘normal’ distance gets the athlete to confirm this was not an error – ‘Did you really want to enter a test location 680km from your overnight location? y/n’

It sounds like this checking was the function that the chap at BC was meant to be performing for Lizzie, but left his job and no one told her.

Seems like there’s loads of technological solutions to this yet the system for whereabouts still seems to be held together with chewing gum and lollysticks. Surely someone could write an app for very little time / effort for BC or UK Sport, even for the World. It’s in no-one’s interests for people to ‘fail’ tests for whereabouts; the testers want to be able to find people and the athletes don’t want to miss them – or if they do, then it’ll be a far higher chance that it’s for nefarious reasons.

For me the spec for the app would be

1/ distance checking – as above, an ‘are you sure?’ message if you say you’ll be more than a few km apart for your general whereabouts vs your defined hour
2/ A simple yes-no alert, say 12 hours and again 5 mins before your defined hour – click to confirm or it gives you time to amend, hence avoiding admin errors.
3/ A silent override to turn your phone on to loud for the defined hour.

Doesn’t seem hard? I bet someone on here could do it.

yet the system for whereabouts still seems to be held together with chewing gum and lollysticks

This seems to be a common theme on this thread from people who’ve never seen or used the system (I’ve not seen or used it!)

That bit is odd, she claims he’d left 3 weeks prior and lets say he knew he was leaving for a week prior, then how come if they had ‘regular’ contact, she didn’t know? It just feels like she is trying to shift the blame unfairly onto someone else, especially as she named him in person in her statement, she needn’t have done that.

True, I’m only going off anecdotes. But the distance one seems like an indicator; there’s such a thing as poka-yoke used in industrial processes, etc. that makes it impossible to make a simple error like that. It would be easy to do the same here, create an error message and problem is avoided. If basic stuff like that isn’t programmed in, then it doesn’t say ‘state of the art’ to me.

[edit] Going further – with phones tracking locations a simple alert to say that you’re not in the location you said you’d be / x miles from where you said you’d be would be easy too?

I’m not being funny right but you were never going to be a professional athlete really, were you?

If I said could have been till I was run over by an articulated lorry would you believe me, the year learning to walk **** that ?

I was referring to the attitude rather than the physical capability…

I was referring to the attitude rather than the physical capability…

oh **** no it was never going to happen , honestly im told very often if I could keep my **** mouth shut and learn people skills I would probably rip a lot of trees up with what I can do…but hey ho, wear sunscreen

I’m not being funny right but if some some ….no wait a minute any governing body expected me to be at their beckon call and expected me to be telling them where I am and what im doing I’d be taking a big shit in a jiffy bag and forwarding it on to the head of the org…..then stop doing anything related to that kind of pastime professional or otherwise

See?

On the keeping track and attitudes etc. I spend a fair bit of time travelling with work. I’ve been corrected by checkin at the airport as to where I’m going, one night I hopped in a taxi and asked for the hotel chain for the next city, I’ve been about where all you do is rely on somebody to tell you where to go as all your concentration is on racing etc. I bumped into Chris ball and cedric gracia in Feb, they had both been round the world at least once by then I think. You are relying on people to keep you going and on track at that point.

I understand that too – I’ve worked with people who don’t know where they’ll be next and rely on an old style PA to hand them tickets and an itinerary on a weekly basis, and on there being a person at the other end who’ll hold a sign with Mr Jones written on it who’ll do the same there.

If you can’t organise yourself, and some people can’t, and your livelihood depends on it then you need someone who’ll do it for you. Or in this case, something.

It only relies on being in the place you said you’d be for an hour a day, and given you can change where that place is right up to that time – I struggle to see how that can’t be managed.

Armistead is World Champion. AFAIK, being World Champ takes, amongst other things, attention to details and the rules.

I can’t say Armistead has doped or transgressed in some way. But her apparent attitude and statement smack of an arrogance and a disregard for her current status wrt testing.

Statements about going to Rio, head high, doesn’t come across well, imo.

See

See what? Is it because I’ve neglected to put a note in saying analyse this?

So am I being naive in thinking some kind of “have you made a mistake here?” check might be useful where the overnight and morning test locations are thousands of miles apart? Is there a potential loophole there?

The ADAM website suggests that they do actively work with athletes to make sure the data captured is correct; e.g. they will query your future schedule if you have recorded future foreign competition but don’t have foreign accommodation recorded.

Creating a technological solution that is flexible enough to record the complex behaviour of international athletes, but which can also warn athletes and somehow stop them from entering conflicting information would not a trivial task at all. Think about what is required and all the possible scenarios and you will soon realise no one could just knock up a wee app.

Armistead is World Champion. AFAIK, being World Champ takes, amongst other things, attention to details and the rules.

I can’t say Armistead has doped or transgressed in some way. But her apparent attitude and statement smack of an arrogance and a disregard for her current status wrt testing.

I tend to agree, actually. I don’t think there is anything particularly unusual about her personal circumstances, she’s been a pro for several years so knows the score, and her “I’ve always tested clean” defence was truly risible. She’s gone down considerably in my estimation.

Agreed. The “I’ve never failed a drugs test” reminds me of someone…

Arrogant beyond belief, and her presence at the Olympics is IMO now damaging for cycling.

Arrogant beyond belief, and her presence at the Olympics is IMO now damaging for cycling.

Says Area Keyboard Warrior…
(the onion)

Very simplistic to pick that line (though god knows why she wrote it, the idiot!) and proclaim that she’s the new Lance.

Can you explain how she hoped to profit from miss #2? If it was really a date that she’d planned to take EPO, why not just ignore the doorbell in the unlikely event of a test that day?

Can you explain how she hoped to profit from miss #2?

Irrelevant as she broke the rules and UKAD & CAS still consider it a missed test.

Irrelevant as she broke the rules and UKAD & CAS still consider it a missed test.

Bull shit.
People are trying to prove motive to go with opportunity to provide guilt.
She made a mistake (the entire reason you get 3.strikes) during a period of stress. If she had been tested (attempted) then it would be a much bigger marker. So far she has 2 strikes and neither to me sound that suspicious.

There was a work convention where only you were called for a drug and alcohol test the boss might not see you and ask if you were on holiday that day… It really doesn’t sound like that

Irrelevant as she broke the rules and UKAD & CAS still consider it a missed test.

Agreed she has to take the rap for it.

But it’s very relevant to our speculation on whether she’s actually doping or not.

I’m not saying she is the new Lance, just pointing out that the statement reminded me of that attitude, hence the comment about arrogance. The whole thing, from the missed tests to the ensuing fallout and the statement she’s released has been dealt with quite poorly really. As has already been covered, she’s not the only one at fault.

Don’t really understand the keyboard warrior reference. I suppose as you’ve called it I’ll take the controversial step of continuing to express my opinions on an internet forum without aiming to deliberately upset anyone.

Very simplistic to pick that line (though god knows why she wrote it, the idiot!) and proclaim that she’s the new Lance.

It would be, if anyone had done so.

The whole thing, from the missed tests to the ensuing fallout and the statement she’s released has been dealt with quite poorly really. As has already been covered, she’s not the only one at fault.
Don’t really understand the keyboard warrior reference

Fact time…
She has missed one test. Keyboard Warrior is due to the misuse of facts.

hrob – Member

Agreed. The “I’ve never failed a drugs test” reminds me of someone…

But she immediately followed it with “I have never taken drugs” so it’s a pretty silly observation- Armstrong used “never failed” to avoid saying “never took”.

mickmcd – Member

im told very often if I could keep my **** mouth shut and learn people skills I would probably rip a lot of trees up

You’re an elephant?

Very simplistic to pick that line (though god knows why she wrote it, the idiot!) and proclaim that she’s the new Lance.

It would be, if anyone had done so.

OK that was a bit dramatic, I know nobody has accused her of bullying her whole team into doping.

I agree her statement doesn’t do her any favours.

It’s nice that she wants to sidestep the PR machine but can you imagine the facepalms as BC’s press office read “I have never tested positive for a banned substance?”

And the general tone is a bit too confrontational IMO. Why not just say “yep, I **** up it was my fault… but x, y and z”. Though maybe that’s why she’s world champ and I’m a keyboard warrior.

Glad we are not in medieval times as if Singletrack haters would of had her burnt at the stake for being a Witch. I know how Chris Froome must feel with the French press and haters judging him.

Don’t really understand the keyboard warrior reference.

I dunno but I did like her dig at the twitter Army

Glad we are not in medieval times as if Singletrack haters would of had her burnt at the stake for being a Witch.

Has anyone actually accused her of doping? More that the whole episode is shady and that any medals would be tainted by suspicion. You fanboys swallow anything, us ‘haterz’ have heard it/seen it all before, we know how it goes down. You don’t seem to be able to even contemplate a Brit might dope…

I know how Chris Froome must feel with the French press and haters judging him.

Well, as per above, we’ve seen it all before. It’s either the most astonishing turnaround and Froome is the greatest ever cyclist or…. Well, it’s the same old story. You know, like all the others. Personally I’m not swallowing it. Time will tell.

Has anyone actually accused her of doping?

Well, it’s the same old story. You know, like all the others. Personally I’m not swallowing it.

So basically accusing them of doping, at least indirectly. Accusing them of covering up or hiding something shady. 😕

Well, she was temporarily banned, was less than truthful about reasons for not racing and the National Cycling Federation has a conflict of interest but gave her legal advise. Just what do you call it? Had they been upfront and honest about things (you know, more like the Yates case) then perhaps I’d be less suspicious.

But, yeah, I’m calling Froome out. But that’s just my opinion. If it passes the smell test for you, crack on.

ETA: yeah, I’m letting my opinions on Froome/Sky (and thereby the obvious connections with/to BC) cloud matters. I’m suspicious by default now.

I read the long, heartfelt personal statement she put out today on Facebook (and probably other place).

That to me looked like a very genuine, honest piece of writing. I’m quite convinced she is clean, though maybe a bit disorganised at times.

Ive just been reading the Tyler Hamilton book which is quite good if I’m honest. Rings a bell about how to avoid the testing with having last minute changes to location and hiding/not answering (switching phones off) and how you can be ‘glowing’ one day and ok the next.

Doesnt prove anything with armistead but for me does raise serious doubts!

Dont get me started on Mo Farahs coach!!