Are Saint M820 203s overkill brakes for an AM/Enduro bike?

A pre-ride dump probably gains more weight saving than that. Mine certainly would.

Going to the toilet pre-ride and using XTR brakes are not mutually exclusive. 😛

Out of curiosity, what Formulas do you have? Big differences between an entry level RX and a top end The One or similiar (which is a downhill bike to compete with Saint, which just happens to be an xc brake to compete with XTR too)

820 is a very good brake but personally I’d just not buy expensive Shimano- I didnt mind having to replace a whole caliper because of one dodgy seal on my XTs, because it cost me £20. Saint gives you twice as many seals to go wrong and costs 3 times as much to fix any of them. Pricey parts without spares support is a bit brave.

Bikeradar power value for XTR trail brakes with 180mm rotors = 112nm

Bikeradar power level for Zee with 180mm rotors = 145nm

Are you sure that’s right? Just a quick glance & I can’t even find them tested, and if so, that’s a massive increase over every other brake tested (and in fact almost a third more powerful than a Saint).

That said, the number is largely irrelevant to me, as I don’t need anything more powerful (or, to be fair, as powerful) as an XTR. So i’d rather save another half a pound over brakes I don’t need 🙂

Yeah, fixating on power is a bit meaningless imo, there’s hardly a brake on the market that doesn’t have more than adequate power, how it uses it and maintains it is more important. It’s just something that marketeers and magazines like because you can measure it and say 15% more NMs imo.

Dont agree there Northwind. Brakes with more power are more resistant to fade and help with arm fatigue.

Hob Nob, those figures are correct, the zees are right on the front page of bikeradars brake section. Then check the right spec section for the power they achieved on their dyno.

If anything is meaningless its 100g of weight not braking power. If you really want to save weight save rotating weight, which you can achieve by going to a smaller rotor with no loss of power by running heavier duty calipers.

XTR has a place for the weight weenies but XT and SlX do not, they are just good budget brakes. Dont buy them in an effort to save weight over a zee setup as its totally pointless.

Hmm. Not 100% sure I trust that (or any BR review). It’s a massive number compared to any other brake on the market, including Shimano’s own flagship DH brake. They actually quote it at 147Nm.

If anything is meaningless its 100g of weight not braking power. If you really want to save weight save rotating weight, which you can achieve by going to a smaller rotor with no loss of power by running heavier duty calipers.

What if you have already saved the rotational weight? 100g of weight each end is nearly half a pound, save that 3 or 4 times & it adds up. It’s not meaningless at all, in fact it’s no less meaningless than having brakes that are way more powerful than you need.

The power of a Zee for most is pointless, as is the power of an XT or SLX. There isn’t a need for a fixation of ‘more is better’.

Dont agree there Northwind. Brakes with more power are more resistant to fade and help with arm fatigue.

The measurement you quoted is merely one of mechanical advantage, translating a force at the lever into a torque at the wheel. The true power of a brake is its ability to dissipate heat and would be measured in watts.

If a magazine were to measure brakes properly then they’d provide a mechanical advantage curve (the Shimano servo wave brakes would perform very differently to most others) and power dissipation data. Many brakes feel less powerful than on-off two pot Shimanos but actually have more power and better modulation.

Tom_W1987 – Member

Dont agree there Northwind. Brakes with more power are more resistant to fade and help with arm fatigue.

Nah, not necessarily on either score I think, lots of factors in heat dissipation and handling (fluid volume, how effective a radiator the parts are, piston material, allsorts- and that’s just how they absorb and radiate heat, before you get into how well they operate when hot) and brake power isn’t just a function of finger force since that’s also dependent on mechanical advantage; lever geometry etc. Even changing the lever blade shape can change how a brake feels and how your fingers work. I mean, I’m not a mechanical engineer so I’ll not try and put numbers on any of that but there’s a load of variables.

Hmm, frinstance… My old Oros weren’t the strongest of brakes but they dealt with heat brilliantly, I never got even a whisper of fade out of them no matter what (including deathgrip braking all the way down my first ever fort william dh run, that was basiclaly 10 minutes of nonstop back brake 😆 Rotor went very pretty colours) My Avids were more powerful but overheated pretty easily. And the Saint M810s were pretty mighty but I got tired fingers using them, something I don’t generally get.

My current Formulas are “The One”, like this:

They have the reach adjust and the free travel adjust, and i run 203(f) 180(r) discs. I like how they feel and how they modulate, and in terms of overall power they are fine. But, they are definitely not “fit and forget” with lots of small pieces and i think the discs they come with are simply too skinny and hence squeal like crazy (no damping). In the Alps this year, giving it the full beans down the EWS stages in La Thuile they were ok (just) with sintered pads in terms of thermal performance, but you could certainly feel they were going off a bit by the bottom 1/3 of the stage. The other thing i don’t like is that the pads have only a tiny thickness of material on them, perhaps in an effort to save weight and maximise heat transfer to the backing pad, but this means they wear out in wet/gritty conditions really quickly.

Of course, one answer is to brake less…… 😉

I thought about getting a Hope system, but the other thing i would like is world wide spares support, something the commonality of Shimano brings in spades.

Nah, not necessarily on either score I think, lots of factors in heat dissipation and handling (fluid volume, how effective a radiator the parts are, piston material, allsorts- and that’s just how they absorb and radiate heat, before you get into how well they operate when hot) and brake power isn’t just a function of finger force since that’s also dependent on mechanical advantage; lever geometry etc. Even changing the lever blade shape can change how a brake feels and how your fingers work. I mean, I’m not a mechanical engineer so I’ll not try and put numbers on any of that but there’s a load of variables.

Hmm, frinstance… My old Oros weren’t the strongest of brakes but they dealt with heat brilliantly, I never got even a whisper of fade out of them no matter what (including deathgrip braking all the way down my first ever fort william dh run, that was basiclaly 10 minutes of nonstop back brake Rotor went very pretty colours) My Avids were more powerful but overheated pretty easily. And the Saint M810s were pretty mighty but I got tired fingers using them, something I don’t generally get.

Good points.

I freaking hated my Oros though, as I thought they faded easily and I got arm pump using them. At the end of the day a lot of bike setup is very subjective.

I thought about getting a Hope system, but the other thing i would like is world wide spares support, something the commonality of Shimano brings in spades.

Hah, you’ll be buying new calipers/brake levers for Shimanos if anything goes wrong, whilst you can keep Hopes going for donkeys years. Hopes are still my favorite brakes but I can’t afford a set of V4’s this year.

My current Formulas are “The One”, like this:

Great for people with big manly hands, I however have very girly hands despite being 182cm tall.

Same as mine, those… They shouldn’t be fading like that, I don’t have the free stroke adjuster things mind, not sure if that makes a difference. (mine have never showed any signs of fade including full runs at Pila and the like, endurance downhill racing on the big bike too) The standard rotors are total shit, replacing them with something made of metal not holes might help- they used to be an XC brake upgrade but lightness sells so now they’re the standard option, which is pretty stupid. Formula are annoying for stuff like this, they end up making a worse product that looks a little better on paper.

The pad thickness is pretty much standard? I’ve never measured them but by eye they look no thinner than Shimano.

Oh, mine squeal but I’ve always thought that’s just because I’ve got the bad squeally touch, all my brakes squeal like ned beatty.

Tom_W1987 – Member

Great for people with big manly hands, I however have very girly hands despite being 182cm tall.

FWIW the non-tool-free-adjustable version of the lever has much more adjustment than the tool-free one, which again seems like a bit of Formula speclist bullshit as it adds nothing and makes them less adjustable and more delicate. But reviewers seem to like it.

As Northwind says, better disks if they were fading and castrol SRF/motul 600 if they were boiling might improve things.

FWIW the non-tool-free-adjustable version of the lever has much more adjustment than the tool-free one, which again seems like a bit of Formula speclist bullshit as it adds nothing and makes them less adjustable and more delicate. But reviewers seem to like it.

Noted. If I ever dare/have the cash to to buy Formula again I’ll bare that in mind as the R0’s have a rather nice power to weight ratio.

Slightly happier blowing money on Hopes as even though they are a heavier than the Formulas, they have worked all the time, the feel is great, they have good heat resistance and the Tech 2/Tech 3 levers fit me perfectly.

I would love a set of R0’s though, I just can’t bring myself to take the plunge.

TBH, “fade” would be too strong a word for what happened in La Thuile. More just a case of the friction co-efficient dropping off as the pads got hotter, which is normal, even for sintered pads. I happened to have AP Racing Dot5 fluid in them, as that was what i had in the garage last time i bled them (use it in my rally car 😉 which is good for 550degC, so i think it’s safe to say the fluid didn’t boil……

I might just try swapping to a more “meaty” disc and see if that improves things.

@Maxtorque

Did you make the swap to saints or zees?

M820 Saints:

So far, so good. Quiet, powerful & nicely modulatable. What’s not to like (other than the price 😉

Saint brakes are great, but I found that XT coped fine with long alpine descents and felt nicer than both Saint and Zee in use. Not sure why, the Saints felt over kill for the UK and the Zee’s just didn’t feel as ‘nice’ although they were certainly powerful. Only just switched out my first set of pads on the XTs after 7 months of abuse (mainly DH riding or XC with an emphasis on the descents) and I weigh just under 100kg. And i prefer the resin pads for performance and silence over sintered.

Tom KP

Nice, what bike did you put them on?

I’ve got XT 785’s on my 5, but at 100kg+ kitted up I find them under powered..
I’ve got the same brakes although with goodridge braided hoses on my Anthem. Which are superb.

I think my kitted weight and the heavier 5 requires some more stopping power..

Don’t worry read OP…zesty..