anyone on here voting tory. why?

I’ll repeat it again: GPs are not in the public sector.

They are predominately funded by the public purse, so it is purely a semantic point.

I found this to be an enlightening read about GPs:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-zoe-norris/nhs-gp-appointment_b_7164322.html

They are predominately funded by the public purse, so it is purely a semantic point.

No it isn’t. They would not have been able to negotiate the significant rises talked about if they were public sector employees.

There are plenty of other areas where the private sector receives the majority of its income from the public purse.

No it isn’t. They would not have been able to negotiate the significant rises talked about if they were public sector employees.

Depends on the counterfactual if they had been paid on the basis of number of patients etc, it would.

Just a thought. If organisations were not allowed to profit from the NHS, would the big drug companies (Astra Zeneca etc) sell drugs to the NHS?

The drug companies, as well as those with their fingers in the pie, are fleecing the NHS. In fact there was an interesting post in the BMJ about this.

Depends on the counterfactual if they had been paid on the basis of number of patients etc, it would.

The problem of GPs being private contractors goes back to the formation of the NHS – Bevan famously commented that he stuffed their mouths with gold just to get the thing running.

Given most other doctors are salaried employees we can be fairly sure what would happen to GPs – they would be graded and have the same collectively negotiated increases as everyone else.

If organisations were not allowed to profit from the NHS, would the big drug companies (Astra Zeneca etc) sell drugs to the NHS?

The NHS would be destroyed in an instant, the whole thing relies on private companies to make drugs, MRI scanners, X-ray kit, blankets etc and the UK would lose a fair chunk of tax as all the companies left. Plus it is often the private companies that supply the expertise to the NHS in terms of the latest products and research, many NHS staff are way behind the times.

By the way making a private and making a profit is not a bad thing.

Indeed if you cannot profit from the ill health of others /their bad fortune then what can you profit from ?

Obviously if they cannot pay then they should just remain ill and /or die [ see Africa for various examples of this] Clearly profiting is what really matters here and not curing them or reducing the sum total of human suffering

By the way making a private and making a profit is not a bad thing.

Depends on how much, and at whose expense.

Is it good that investors cream a load of profits off the railways? Part of your fare goes into someone’s pocket who doesn’t work on the railways.

Dragon – Glad someone’s got some sense and is in touch with the real world.

Why would anyone invest in the expense of designing new drugs or equipment without a reward? So in your model millions are pumped in to develop the drug get it through the trails, pay for marketing etc. and at the end the people who put in all that money get nothing back but a warm cuddly glow? Yeah that’ll work.

I wasn’t talking about railways, and TBH as they seem to run better now IMO than under BR I can’t see the issue. No one is forcing you to use them. Worth noting that the UK railway infrastructure was pretty much all built by private enterprise, prior to it being nationalised.

Obviously if they cannot pay then they should just remain ill and /or die

That’s probably what would happen if they (the NHS) couldn’t buy drugs

I wasn’t talking about railways, and TBH as they seem to run better now IMO than under BR I can’t see the issue.

You do realise that the infrastructure is publicly owned? And that the government had to take East Coast back into public ownership?

That’s probably what would happen if they (the NHS) couldn’t buy drugs

I buy my own drugs as the NHS won’t prescribe them. NHS Consultant agrees that they are what I need but am left to buy from outside the UK. 😐

it was often commented that no country has ever cut its way out of a deficit

Has any country ever borrowed its wat out of a deficit?

borrowing has continued to rise under the current government

I wonder how many folk who use this point as a stick to beat the Conservatives with are also outraged by the current level of austerity.

Just a thought. If organisations were not allowed to profit from the NHS, would the big drug companies (Astra Zeneca etc) sell drugs to the NHS?

This will be interesting once the TTIP is fully ratified. Might they go further than simply refusing to supply the NHS and sue the government for the inability to profit?

Actually you can’t borrow and spend your way out of a recession, that was tried and proved to fail in the 70’s, the second to last time labour screwed up this country, and indeed the last time where they excelled themselves and actually proved that you can borrow and spend your way from a healthy and growing economy to a bear bankrupted one. But I guess people have short memories, and labour sympathisers are shorter than most, as it was declared by the Labour Party in the ’70’s that the notion of spending your way out of a recession is well and truly dead. The economy was not recovering when the Tories took over and in anycase reducing the deficit can only make sense – on what level does anyone think it is sensible or acceptable to spend more than you earn? It’s a simple principle which labour simply don’t believe in – they always have and always will overspend knowing full well when things eventually collapse the ‘nasty tories’ will come in, do the difficult thing and sort the mess out so they always look like the bad guys and labour come back in and ruin things once again. It’s a vicious cycle.

Milliband is not fit to run local council meeting let alone the country, and his partner in crime, Sturgen (who I’m convinced is the little one out of the Crankies) will run rings around him and hold the UK to ransome – 5M people holding 55M people to ransom. Not very democratic is it?

I voted Tory for these and many other reasons, not least I don’t think labour deserves another shot after the complete hash they made of their last tenure, and every one before it. They’ve always been incompetent and under Milliband and Sturgen they’ll be more so. No doubt someone will be along to quote and edit my post with a patronising FTFY on the end.

Wobbliscott, I agree.

Also the hypocrisy of SNP is that they want to fight labour, and then join them!!!! What’s their real agenda?

on what level does anyone think it is sensible or acceptable to spend more than you earn?

When it’s for the purpose of investment to increase what you earn.

For example, if I decided that I could make a lot of money running a bike shop, I would have to borrow the money to buy the premises. Far more money than I currently have. And the mortgage payments might be more than I can afford. However when the shop’s up and running, I would be making a tidy profit even after the mortgage.

It’s really not hard to think of times when it’s a good idea to spend more than you earn. It’s bad in some circumstances, of course, but good in others. So banging on and on and on about it being ludicrous is just **** stupid and demonstrates you don’t know shit. Sorry to get angry but I’m sick and tired of explaining it. I hope you feel patronised.

That doesn’t mean that the last government did it well, but it DOES mean that it’s not always a bad idea in principle.

Seems like most Tories are simply succumbing to confirmation bias, which is something that really destroys political debate. So snap out of it.

That’s all well and understood, but it also bears repeating that the differences between a country’s finances and a person’s finances mean they aren’t really that comparable. And anyway, how much of the more than £half a trillion that the last Labour government added to the national debt went on investment as opposed to expanding public sector office jobs?

Has any country ever borrowed its way out of a deficit, molgrips?

Also the hypocrisy of SNP is that they want to fight labour, and then join them!!!!

In that case it’s a bit like hypocrisy of the Tories wanting to fight the Libdems and then join them to form a government.

No, wait, I’m sure that’s entirely different.

^ I wasn’t aware the lib dems wanted to split Scotland from the UK

You said :

the hypocrisy of SNP is that they want to fight labour

No mention at all about wanting “to split Scotland from the UK”.

The Tories definitely want to fight the LibDems, and then form a government with them.

But that’s not hypocrisy of course.

Those sort of terms are reserved for your political rivals.

That’s all well and understood, but it also bears repeating that the differences between a country’s finances and a person’s finances mean they aren’t really that comparable.

That’s been my point all along. Tories seem to be keen on making idiotic comparisons between government finances and domestic ones, so I gave an example where it would work even in a domestic situation.

Has any country ever borrowed its way out of a deficit, molgrips?

Dunno, but I think you can spend your way out. Just don’t borrow too much.

And anyway, how much of the more than £half a trillion that the last Labour government added to the national debt went on investment as opposed to expanding public sector office jobs?

So you think none of the extra jobs were worth anything? Is this perhaps confirmation bias at work here?

Comparisons between national and domestic finances are entirely valid (if done correctly) and in any case will always be made in order to communicate with the electorate. Borrowing makes sense to buy a house or even a car if that is required to get to/from work. Borrowing to pay for non-essential items or when you know you are going to get a pay cut or lose your job does not.

NHS, other health systems exist in different countries and they work quite well including many who have large sections which are in the private sector. The notion that the only model is a totally public sector NHS is daft, in fact to say so is scaremongering

Exactly. So define non-essential? That’s the tricky part, isn’t it?

Indeed molgrips that’s where it starts to get political

No mention at all about wanting “to split Scotland from the UK”.

Taken from the SNPs website:

The independence we propose for Scotland is exactly for this purpose. It is with independence – the natural state for nations like Scotland – that we will have the ability to determine our own destiny and build the best future for our country.

http://www.snp.org/vision/better-scotland

Ernie im convinced your a troll and I’m going to ignore your posts from now on

IIRC this is what the right wingers do when they know they cannot hold their own in a debate with a Left winger.

Comparisons between national and domestic finances are entirely valid (if done correctly)

They are not and we need no further proof than you think its ok to do it

Ernie im convinced your a troll and I’m going to ignore your posts from now on

Oh please don’t ignore me 🙄

Btw thanks for pointing out to me that the SNP wants Scottish independence.

Now getting back to the point you were making, quote : the hypocrisy of SNP is that they want to fight labour, and then join them!!!!

Is different to the hypocrisy of the Tories wanting to fight the Libdems and then join them to form a government in what way ?

The answer to the OP questions seems to be, quite a few. Those Audi driving IT types possibly?

Call me dave has spent the last 3 weeks telling me how awful the Scots are and they will wreck it all if you vote Labour, the Scots and Red Ed are going destroy everything. Now he is saying he wants to run the country for all of the UK. Make your mind up chap. The next 5 years are going to be excruciating 🙁

“Shy Tories”, eh? 😕 The last five letters are superfluous. The vote that dare not speak its name.

Comparisons between national and domestic finances are entirely valid (if done correctly)

They’re only valid if you’re making an argument for cuts.

My household doesn’t have to consider the effects of Keynesian economics. If I pay someone to build an extension on my house then it has no real impact on the economy. If the government builds power stations and railways then that can have an impact (a positive one) on the economy.

A picture which sums up the attitude of a lot of lefties I know personally and who rant on here…..

On a war memorial.

Being a Tory is just selfishness dressed up as a political philosophy.

I have more respect for those that admit this and that they vote purely out of self-interest rather than trying to pretend that they give a **** about those less fortunate than themselves.

robdod – it’s funny how upset people get over a war memorial but they don’t care in the slightest about living war veterans suffering and dying right now because they’ve had their benefits cut by this government.

Also, there is evidence to suggest that was done by a police agent provocateur trying to discredit the protestors.

What evidence?

Reports on twitter from people saying they saw the guy that did it hanging out with the police afterwards having a brew. Could be bollocks but there is a well-documented history of the police/security services doing stuff like that so it wouldn’t be a massive surprise.

Can you explain to me yet why a war memorial is more important than living people having their lives made a a misery or actually dying because of the government you voted for?

FRIENDS and family of a marine veteran who died from cancer while battling the state over benefits have told of their dismay he was never given an apology.

Gordon Lang, who lived in Gosport, was in the middle of a fight with the Department for Work & Pensions after being told to work while unwell.

The 62-year-old amputee’s story drew huge support when he told The News he had been told to find a job despite being terminally ill with lung cancer. Mr Lang died from his illness on Monday and loved ones say the government should have said sorry to the war veteran for the way he was treated.

Close friend Richard Thomson said: ‘An amputee with severely restricted mobility, Gordon was put though a tick-box assessment to compel him to seek work after his disability benefit lifeline was cut.

‘He was compelled to turn up every few weeks to Jobcentre plus even if he wasn’t feeling well enough to attend and hounded with sanction threats if he didn’t comply. He was treated monstrously by a system that didn’t recognise from the outset he was one of life’s strivers not skivers. Even when it was finally recognised that he been unjustly treated and won his tribunal appeal, no apology was ever forthcoming.”

But hey, tax breaks for the well off won’t fund themselves will they, so we have to find the money from somewhere.

Or this one:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/killed-benefits-cuts-starving-soldier-3923771

But no you’re right, a bit of graffiti is far more important isn’t it. 🙄

A picture which sums up the attitude of a lot of lefties I know personally and who rant on here…..

Oh dear oh dear. Do I now have to find some racist and offensive graffiti to make some crass comment regarding all right-wingers ?

Seriously robdob, that’s quite pathetic.

Though it may or may not be the case, Grum’s mention of agent provocateurs is entirely reasonable:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Demonstration_Squad

For example:

The SDS used the names of 80 dead children to create false identities for its operatives.

Some members of the SDS engaged in sexual relationships with protest organisers in an attempt to gain trust.

On 23 October 2014, the Metropolitan Police Service agreed to pay £425,000 to a woman called Jacqui whose child was fathered by former SDS operative Bob Lambert; she did not know at the time of their relationship that he was an undercover police officer.

In 2013, former SDS undercover officer Peter Francis revealed that the SDS investigated the family of Stephen Lawrence in order to seek possible evidence to smear Lawrence with in case of racially motivated public order issues.

And yep, when veterans are suffering as a result of Her Majesty’s Government, we have to wonder, what is more important, the memorial or the veterans themselves…