Anybody here interested in English women folk singers?

….may I ask your opinion?

How did the English women folk singers develop their odd style of singing? I was in the car yesterday and heard a 30 minute programme with Annie Briggs, which contained some of her songs. I’ve no doubt she’s talented and she has a huge personality but her studied nutty non-conformity really began to grate, especially when she sang exactly in the style of so many other English woman folk singers.

I don’t enjoy hearing a classically-trained soprano warbling her way through a 1960s pastiche of a traditional English folk song (I’m thinking of people like Joan Sutherland here) as I find that kind of adoption of vernacular music irritatingly smug and patronising. But the standard way as practiced by numerous women singers from Maddy Prior and Sandy Denny to Kate Rusby seems to be to try to sound like a drunk medieval barmaid; they sing through their noses in an over-loud voice, deliberately slightly flat, with an affected west country accent. Who ever told them that English folk had to be performed in this way? Before people like Bert Lloyd began to revive public interest in folk, most people wouldn’t have heard a folk song performed so where did it come from?

Usual disclaimers here; I accept that not all women folk singers adopt this style and that there’s also an Irish and a Scottish way of singing folk songs but I find those a good deal less grating and false.

Any thoughts?

Are you only talking about when they are rendering traditional songs? Or do you include new folk work in that?

If the first, then I understand your irritation. By way of analogy, there’s a constituency of the Canadian folk scene that deliberately makes everything sound ‘celtic’. But if you’re thinking this applies even to new folk, then is there not a wider range of sound?

Think Laura Marling, for instance.

Kate Rusby is more than slightly Northern… saw her in Guildford earlier this year – great voice and interesting variations on her songs – but the “Me.. I’m just a yorkshire lass and here’s my mug of Tea” schtick was laid on a bit thick.

Accidentally saw Eliza Carthy with her dad and a large band 3 years ago. We were there for the support More normal voice but annoying as hell. We walked out.

The whole folk thing seems – from a distant uninformed view – a bit over-reverential and up its own… And yes – I know what you mean about the sound. Or perhaps its just that people with that voice fit in singing that stuff. Prefer Alt Country anyway 🙂

edit: Laura Marling – very good

Well I have to admit that in the last few years I’ve not kept up to date on new singers and material so I’m talking about the sixties through to the noughties, I guess.

Up their own backsides is an accurate description; there are some people whose sole mission in life seems to be to demonstrate what right-on, genuine, unpretentious human beings they are. You meet them on UK Climbing, Cycle Chat and sometimes on here.

Or Martha Tilston;

I’m not fond of labels or genres precisely because of this.
It tends to homogenise.

The trad folk movement has been a fantastic thing and created some amazing music.
It’s pretty complicated, tbh.

Best played loud, when drunk.

Hey, don’t go dissin’ Annie Briggs maaaan.

Its not studied non-conformity, she was one of the original non-conformists, hell she even turned her back on a ‘commercial’ career in the 60’s. Try listening to Shirley Collins.

Her influence on Bert Jansch with Blackwaterside alone (without this Jimmy Page couldn’t have ripped it off for Black mountain side).

Have a look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Briggs

Here’s the programme for those that missed it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07syrrs

I ain’t dissin’ her Dude, I said she was talented and a huge personality.

Wiki gives me the impression she was so non-conformist that nobody would have signed her up anyway.

Apologies if I’ve misinterpreted (i.e. read too fast 🙂 ) your post.

I loved that programme but then I do have some of Annie’s stuff already. I get defensive!

Edit: backs up what I said, it ain’t studied, that’s what she is!

Oh I also like Shirley Collins but she strikes me more of what I thought you were on about in typical female finger-in-the-ear folk singer…

Mrs Binners is quite heavily into her female folk singers, and I know exactly what you mean. It seems like they’re all essentially being Sandy Denny. I don’t mind Thea Gilmore. Live she’s excellent, but I can’t get too interested in it.

But I think that if Folk music actually moved with he times instead of becoming moored at some point in the 70’s, and essentially becoming a dull tribute act, then it would have evolved into something like this…

Kate Tempest is amazing! Saw her live last year, and she was incredible. A modern poet, and what she does is what folk music should surely be… intelligent social commentary.

Its worth getting the album Everybody Down, and if you get the chance to see her live, then its one of the best performances you’ll ever see.

Hey, don’t go dissin’ Annie Briggs maaaan.

I listened to it as well, and had more or less the same reaction to it that Globilti had; specifically “Why are you singing like that?” it was, after a couple songs, really **** annoying, and tedious. who decided certain folk songs had to be sung like that? (I’m aware those recordings were 40 years old)

Try O’Hooley & Tidow if you’d like to hear something seen as modern folk music. Be warned though, they sing as if they are from the Huddersfield area.

“But the standard way as practiced by numerous women singers from Maddy Prior and Sandy Denny to Kate Rusby seems to be to try to sound like a drunk medieval barmaid; they sing through their noses in an over-loud voice, deliberately slightly flat, with an affected west country accent.”

That OP is not really correct, the variety in female folk singers is broad, I suggest you have a further listen to others. I do understand (I think) your point though. You cannot get away from the historic traditions of the folk music scene and that a good few of them are from “up north”. They do seem to want to stress regional accent. Also given that a good few of the early songs are written about events from and ordinary person of the times point of view its not a surprise if interpretations are often “traditional”. If you ever get the chance to speak to some folky folk, you’ll note that they talk like they sing. The Unthank sisters, Lucy Ward, Hannah James, Kathryn Tickell would be a good examples.

For context, the nasal singing is a historical feature of many folk songs and goes way back to when most singing (for ordinary people) was about story telling and the only music available. Nasal tones can be found in the USA in Bluegrass and traditional country music that have there routes in the British Isles.

I do agree that a certain persons in folk music get way to much uncritical reverence.

Sorry if that lot was boring.

Not at all; you went some way to answering my question.

I’ve always thought that for most people, the only place they would have heard music before electricity was in the pub or in church.

Oh dear. Think you might have spoilt one of my favourite albums for me at the moment – the Full English. Not noticed it before. I have a feeling I will now!

Bit like Joan Baez. Amazing voice, but jeez, lay off the vibrato for a just moment here and there, Joan!

Yebbut Joan Baez plays superb guitar.

give http://www.laraconley.co.uk/%5B/url%5D a try too

There are certain people on that Full English album that fit into the “to much uncritical reverence”. One of em from Sheffield believes he’s a legend in his own life time. Good music though.

Just for those that like to mix a bit of folk music and biking in a great place. Reeth has a number of concerts in the Memorial Hall that could do with some support if you are biking in the area.
See this:
https://www.ents24.com/reeth-events/reeth-memorial-hall

Most of the other stuff is pretty good (not the Dreamers), one of those acts qualifies in the “to much uncritical reverence”. Guess who?

I’ve never noticed a particularly uniform style among female folk singers. Are you confusing English regional accents and assuming they all conform to a stereotypical nasal sort of sound?

My favourite female folk singers of the moment are Sound of the Sirens(and I discovered them before Chris Evans did). They sing with a light west country accent, because they are from Exeter.

I suppose its better than trying to sing everything with a fake American accent.

Oh yes, I liked Lara Conley; very assured and cool. Will give her a listen after the hooligan ride tonight.

I’ve never noticed a particularly uniform style among female folk singers. Are you confusing English regional accents and assuming they all conform to a stereotypical nasal sort of sound?

It’s not necessarily just women that sing like they have adenoid issues. 😆

What’s wrong with Sandy Denny? Bloody hell – she makes the likes of Adele and others seem like the Karaoke singers that they really are. Similarly Maddy Prior and Fay Hield/Nancy Kerr from the Full English. I like Annie Briggs, too.
Have you ever heard ‘Who know where the time goes’ by Sandy Denny?

…. and another thing, we are so used to hear pop singers singing in a mid-atlantic or American accent that when we hear someone sing in their normal voice/accent we think that it sounds ‘funny’. It’s great to hear the Northern accent in Kate Rusby, Fay Hield, the Unthanks, Eliza Carthy’s stuff, IMO.

You’ve missed the point. Sandy Denny doesn’t sing that song in the style I mentioned. And one of my favourite albums of all time is Silly Sisters with Maddy Prior and June Tabor, also not particularly in that style, which some find irritating.

Bella Hardy is worth a listen. See this http://www.darkpeakandwhite.com/

The recording is produced by Kris Drever, now his voice really is nasal.

@Binners, I’d suggest that female folk singing of the present is way past a Sandy Denny tribute. The is some many great singers and song writers out there now.

Kate Rusby – affected west country accent

Er no.

To be honest I can’t see much beyond Kate Rusby and June Tabor.

I’m in love with Josienne Clarke (& Ben Walker’s excellent guitar playing):

Ignorant but interested, I do tend to favour the distaff voice my favourite being the very lovely Jackie Oats

But the standard way as practiced by numerous women singers from Maddy Prior and Sandy Denny to Kate Rusby seems to be to try to sound like a drunk medieval barmaid; they sing through their noses in an over-loud voice, deliberately slightly flat, with an affected west country accent.

You’ve missed the point. Sandy Denny doesn’t sing that song in the style I mentioned. And one of my favourite albums of all time is Silly Sisters with Maddy Prior and June Tabor, also not particularly in that style, which some find irritating.

I’m struggling to think of any song that Sandy sings in that particular style, and it’s worth pointing out that Sandy wrote ‘Who Knows…’ when she was fourteen, and has never really been a traditional folk singer, some of her writing shading into Jazz influence.
Thea Gilmore has also never been a trad.folk singer, she’s more an Indy singer/songwriter, but her voice has changed, got deeper and fuller after having her son, something that seems to happen to female singers, and Thea also did an album of songs that Sandy wrote but never finished, and those certainly don’t exhibit that sound, check out Glistening Bay and Frozen Time, from Don’t Stop Singing
Maddy Prior certainly had that nasal delivery, but so does Barbra Streisand, and she ain’t no folkie!
Maddy’s voice has also got deeper, and has lost a fair bit of its nasal quality, which does seem to be part of the trad.folk thing, even some male singers do it; I’m wondering if it’s due to having to project over noisy bars and pubs, the affected higher pitch allowing the words to have greater clarity.
I’m just thinking out loud, I don’t know for certain, and I’ve never thought to ask any singers when I’ve met them, although I did have a chat with Thea about how her voice had changed.
The nasal thing does seem to be an unamplified stage affectation, I’ve noticed other female show singers like Elaine Paige in particular has it, as well as La Streisand, who is, of course a big show tune singer.

Sandy Denny “nasal”?

I think you must have your speaker cables laid in the wrong direction…

Kate ‘born & raised in Barnsley’ Rusby affecting a West Country accent? Have you actually listened to her singing at all? Or heard anyone from the West Country?…

OK it’s not necessarily a West Country accent, that was a poor description. It’s more a rural English accent, if such a thing can exist. I think the aim is to sound musically uneducated and authentic, the very opposite of the trained classical warbling sopranos I mentioned in my original post. Also it’s not so much nasal as projected from the top of the throat, perhaps in an effort, as others have suggested, to project above the sound of a packed room.

And yes, some male folk singers do it as well. Now the finger in the ear; that’s another thing and also probably aimed to help the singer hear themselves in a noisy environment.

Certainly a lot of ‘traditional’ folk songs seem to be sung in a certain style, I’d always assumed that was a legacy of the way they have always been sung. Like death metal always being a growl/scream or trance type dance always being vocoded to death.
It’s not a style of singing I find offensive tbh, it’s part of the reason I quite like the genre but I do tend to listen to more male and ‘modern’ folk nowadays, stuff like Ninebarrow.

If you want the ‘nasal’ or finger in the ear style, try the Watersons or Ewan McColl.

Yes lay the blame on McColl. Most things are his fault. Anyway, nowt wrong with regional accents, it’s better than the faux Mercan used throughout pop and rock.