Looking for some views from people who know more than I do and who can tell me what’s reasonable….

I recently booked a local plumbing company based on consistently very good online reviews to do 2 things that I expected to be fairly straight forward:

1. To remove two radiators in one room and replace them with one radiator in between where the existing ones were
2. Unblock a downstairs loo that I’d already tried (and failed) to unblock myself with a plunger.

I explained to the plumbing company in advance of the work that the type of pipework used in the house is plastic pipe rather than normal copper pipe in order to avoid any issues with parts. I also let the plumbing company know that I’d tried to plunge the loo to no avail so it might need rodding.

Before the work took place the plumbing company estimated 3.5 – 4.5 hours to drain the system, remove the rads, install the new one, make good and unblock the loo. They also quoted me £176+25% handling fee + VAT for the new radiator (£264 in total) for the new radiator – which I subsequently managed to get myself for £128 inc. VAT and delivery.

On the day the work took place; a Friday, the plumber turned up – and turned out to be a guy subcontracted to the plumbing company rather than one of “their own plumbers” as their website suggests.

The plumber didn’t have the right tools to cut a groove in the plasterboard for the new pipe to connect up the new radiator. I nipped out, bought a cutting tool (£90) and did that for him while he dissappeared off to get the 2 x 3m lengths of plastic pipe he needed.

While he was out, the plumbing company manager phoned to say all local stockists were out of stock of the plastic pipe the plumber needed (at this point the plumber had already drained the system and cut the pipes off) and would need to make a c30 mile return journey to get some in order to get the system back together for the weekend – which would take just over an hour. He also offered to discount the cost beyond the 4.5 hours originally estimated to 50% of the rate (or £37.50 an hour from £75 an hour).

The plumber eventually returned with a roll of plastic pipe 3 hours later. In total he took 6.5 hours to remove / cap off two existing radiators, install the new one and then 2 hours to re-balance the system. When he left, the new radiator wasn’t heating up properly and the return valve was tepid at best but he said it would take a “few days for the system to balance” and to just let them know the following week if it hadn’t settled down. As he’d not bought any tools other than a plunger, he wasn’t able to fix the toilet.

The price for all this was 8.5 hours labour – 4.5 hours at £75/hr and 4 hours at £37.50/hr. On top of that I’ve been charged for 50m of pipe (he left with 44m spare) and a 25% handling fee.

When I got the materials invoice I googled the parts code and immediately found 2 places in stock within 3 miles that had the “out of stock” pipe in stock on the day the plumber spent ages driving round to get the parts (I phoned to check) – and which would have taken maybe 30 minutes in total to drive to and back from rather than the 3 hours the plumber took.

Well, the radiator didn’t settle down and a large water stain (and warm water!) appeared on the wall when the system was running – right where he’d capped off the radiator. I contacted the plumbing company and expplained the damp stain and that the radiator wasn’t working when ge left the last time.

They sent him back yesterday and he advised the water stain was nothing to do with the pipe being capped off. He took 1 hour to swap the radiator valves round during which time he speculated the system wasn’t working properly because the pipes were too small, the boiler wasn’t the right size (despite having coped with 1 extra radiator absolutely fine before the work) and finally that maybe a whole new system is required (the house is only 4 years old so the system is pretty new). He then spent a further 3 hours “rebalancing” the system again – there are 10 radiators in the whole house to give some indication of the scale.

Only after the work was completed, the plumber confirmed that the whole visit was chargeable at £75/hr because the stain / damp patch on the wall wasn’t due to the pipe he capped off leaking – and because the balancing of the radiators also wasn’t covered – even though it wasn’t working properly when he left last time. At no point before the work started did either the plumbing company or the plumber inform me I would be charged. Interestingly his invoice for yesterday (£405 inc VAT) mentions “swapped valves round as not reversable”.

So now my total labour cost for removing two radiators, installing one new one and rebalancing is £945 inc. VAT and I’ve paid around £60 over the odds for “scarce parts” by virtue of the 25% handling fee and paying for 44m more pipe than the plumber actually used.

Does this seem like a blatant mickey take?

Should I reasonably expect the work to fix the radiator not working to be at the plumbers cost given that it wasn’t work when he left last time?

If he installed the valves the wrong way round (which seems to be the case from the wording on the second invoice), is it reasonable for me to have paid 2 hours for “rebalancing” the first time and then to have to pay another 3 hours labour to do the “rebalacing” again after he’d installed them the correct way around?

In short – and not having read the whole lot – you have all the info you need to tell them exactly where to get off.

In short yes

You don’t have to pay for their mistakes, if you pay for all the pipe you keep all the pipe

I would pay to the original estimate with an explanation of why you are paying nothing more – yo have all the data you need

To remove a rad and tidy up the pipe work my plumber charged be £40 (included pulling up floor boards etc). He didn’t need to drain the system either, cos he used a pipe freezer – they’re expensive, but I’d expect a decent plumber to have one (not sure if they’re always approriate in ever situation though).

At a later date, he spent a large part of the day re-plumbing my kitchen before we refitted it – he charged me £130 for parts and labour.

Sounds like your chap is a bit of a cowboy to say the least.

This looks like a classic “rogue trader” scenario!

Tell them to get bent until they actually do what they were paid to do and only pay for what they actually quoted.

I’d always go for a tradesman that I have a recommendation on from friends or family, who knows who posted the online reviews!

Are we talking copper pipe? just when a plumber can’t buy copper it pretty well means he has no accounts or hasn’t paid his bills.

oldgit – not copper, 10mm Hep Barrier pipe … this stuff

Hep piping

Pay the original estimate and no more.

No way should you pay for him to take that long to get some 10mm pipe, also ensuring that it is working before he leaves should be the minimum he should do.

Do not pay for any other work, in fact you could withold payment until the system is working satisfactorily as it was before he started.

And what tool do you need for cutting plasterboard, thought a saw or stanley knife works fine?

No wonder the industry has a bad name.

This is why I do all my own plumbing and electrics – buy stuff from Screwfix, next day delivery, fit it in the evenings after work.

Plumbing is really very simple…

The plumber didn’t have the right tools to cut a groove in the plasterboard for the new pipe to connect up the new radiator. I nipped out, bought a cutting tool (£90) and did that for him while he dissappeared off to get the 2 x 3m lengths of plastic pipe he needed.

Seriously? You need to ask if these are cowboys?

Where do you live? Plastic pipe is widely available as are the fittings.

Sounds like easy work that they’ve deliberately drawn out. Also if you’ve paid for the piping you should keep it.

this exact scam was on rogue traders on the beeb a while ago. yes, you’ve been scammed. Everywhere has plastic\copper pipe, bnq, screwfix, homebase, you name it..

Have you paid up already?

All I can add is
😯

total scam I can walk to 2 shops that have the plastic pipe or the copper pipe in from my house in under 10 mins and drive to about 6 in 10 minutes- what plumbers merchant runs out of pipe? like a timber merchant having no wood all utter BS from them and i would tell them to take a flying **** for the money and ask to see them in court. i dont expect they want to explain why they charged you for 50 m of pipe and kept 46 of it for themselves etc

I’d be f’cked if I’d be paying a second invoice for them to fix their own problems, that’s for bloody certain.

I think I’d be telling the company what happened – could be that he’s scamming them too, or they could be in on it, their attitude should tell you which – and then tell them you’ll be taking legal advice. Then, take legal advice.

I’d consider not paying them a penny and getting a real plumber in to check and fix the hatchet job they’ve done.

I nipped out, bought a cutting tool (£90) and did that for him

I’d have stuck my hands in my pockets and given them my “this is my problem how?” face.

😯

Tell them they will have to rectify their mistakes if they want to be paid at all.

Get them to do the work, then pay them the sum as on the original estimate and enclose a letter saying that this is all you are going to pay.

If they call to contest it, tell them you will see them in court.

I bet they won’t bother as you will have paid what they quited you.

For future reference, when selecting tradesmen for a job, get the winning bidder to provide you with a pro forma that is to the same value as the estimate.

Alternatively, save yourself a shed load of hassle and money and do it yourself!

to cut a groove in the plasterboard for the new pipe to connect up the new radiator. I nipped out, bought a cutting tool (£90)

I don’t doubt you, but what tool which cuts a groove in plasterboard costs £90……..I’ve never heard of it.

You obviously have far far far more money than sense.

In fact, I think this is a troll, nobody its that dumb surely?

I’d probably charge maybe £190 all in, depending on the size of your new rad.

In fact, I think this is a troll, nobody its that dumb surely?

Given the amount of detail and the length of the post, I doubt very much that this is a troll.

The OP was probably expecting the company, with consistently good on-line reviews, to be an upstanding and honest member of the profession. No need to insult him.

And I patch up my own chases too!

Whoa! My WHOLE central heating system cost about that!

ernie_lynch – Member

I don’t doubt you, but what tool which cuts a groove in plasterboard costs £90……..I’ve never heard of it.

a Fein multimaster copy? eg that Bosch one.

Best advice is to check your house insurance to see if you’re covered for legal advice, if so hand the lot over to them.

what you going to do with the spare pipe.

project – Member
what you going to do with the spare pipe.

Sell it to local plumbers cos there’s no stock to be found 🙂

Have you checked the back of the invoice(s)? If there’s a letter from a distant relative of an ex-Nigerian emperor or something similar, you may be able to recoup some cash by sending him your bank details for a refund and something a bit extra for your troubles.

Right, thanks everyone – some useful comments here and it’s nice to know that I’m not completely off beam in my thinking.

Couple of points – the hourly rate round these parts is a lot, and there are a lot of unscrupulous tradesmen as a result. In lieu of a recommendation from neighbours / colleagues, a well recommend local firm with positive “history” seemed like a good bet.

As it’s turned out, I feel cheated and that they’ve strung out a simple job – quite possibly as a “penalty” for me refusing to pay a 100% mark up on the radiator in the first place.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to post.

a Fein multimaster copy?

😕 The last time I cut out plasterboard for access to a radiator pipe (which actually was about 4 months ago) I used a stanley knife – it took me no time at all. In fact I’ve never seen anyone use anything other than a stanely knife or pad-saw to do that sort of thing. Why the need for power tools ?

FJ – where are you in the uk then, as that hourly rate is very high.

At £ 75 an hour, i’d only work one day a week, i’d probably knock off at 4 too!

i’d only do a half day!

At least it would mean I could be up to date with paperwork!