How are you feeling about it?

I’m a teacher and interested to know parents views on this if there are any out there.

Cheers

They seem to have made it overcomplicated and it seems no-one has a clue what they are doing with them.

My girl is currently making her choices for 4th year. This is part of the new curriculum for excellence. She needs to drop 4 subjects which is hard when her report today says she’s rated at national 5 for two subjects and 4/5 for the rest. I suppose she’s doing well but we haven’t a clue what she should do.

her report today says she’s rated at national 5 for two subjects and 4/5 for the rest.

She needs to try as hard as she can to get N5 awards. N4 is ungraded, internally assessed and IMO is a lower standard of difficulty than the old Standard Grade General.

They seem to have made it overcomplicated and it seems no-one has a clue what they are doing with them.

Pretty much.

@spin I take it if she isn’t hitting the 5 standard it’s a waste of time? Is there any use in a 4 qualification? Obviously we will as always encourage her to do the best she can.

My daughter did her prelims last week and is going for N5s in most subjects, the only doubtful one is Maths but we’re pushing for N5. The last few years have been very different than when I was at school, she chose subjects at the end of S1 then proceeded to have core and elective lessons on different topics in the same subject, sometimes on the same day. We found this very confusing and the breadth/depth explanation didn’t really make sense to me. That’s the problem with being the guinea pig year though, nobody really understood what was going on. My younger daughter is in P7 and the route for her seems to make more sense.

They seem to have made it over complicated and it seems no-one has a clue what they are doing with them.

Yup that’s about the gist of it really.

They seem to have made it overcomplicated and it seems no-one has a clue what they are doing with them.

This.

Or as my colleague mentioned she’d said to her sons’ Teacher last week, “describe it in words I’d know” ie how it was when I was at school.

I’m even more in the dark with my son (who is doing 4’s and 5’s) as I’m English and still think in ‘O’ and ‘A’ Levels.

*pulls up a chair as interested party, working with a couple of dozen secondary teachers this year*

As above, seems that the principle was clear, the implementation in many ways (like CfE), has been made over-complicated.

So now, secondary teachers are ‘writing’ on the go curriculum and exams for the third(?) year on the trot, and still do not seem to have a clear path.

I think that in three years time, we will wonder what the fuss was – and I do think anything that makes professional teachers really think about what they teach, as well as how, is a good thing.

The silver lining in all this means your GTCS Professional Update box is well and truly ticked, without the need for extra work! You can go to head for PRD, say “I sorted the N4/5’s”, and they should corroborate…

I take it if she isn’t hitting the 5 standard it’s a waste of time

Not a waste of time but a massively lower standard. A much bigger difference than that between the old Credit and General.

That’s the problem with being the guinea pig year though, nobody really understood what was going on.

This is a massive issue for me. Basically there is one year group who have had these changes follow them all the way through their school career.

I think that in three years time, we will wonder what the fuss was

Me too but that’s nae good to the pupils sitting it now.

I do think anything that makes professional teachers really think about what they teach, as well as how, is a good thing.

I agree with that too but instead of thinking about how we teach we’re spending all our time trying to work out WTF the SQA are on about. It’s no accident that the EIS work load campaign is called ‘Make Time for Teaching’.

…we’re spending all our time trying to work out WTF the SQA are on about.

Yup.

We’re getting verified/moderated in a few weeks and we’ve just found out that they’ll be back again in a few months. I can’t help but feel that it’s the tail wagging the dog with the SQA – are we not supposed to be their customers..?!

are we not supposed to be their customers..?!

We’re their employees now. We’re certainly doing the job they used to do in terms of producing assessment materials and marking course assessment.

Me too but that’s nae good to the pupils sitting it now.

I think you are right. It sucks for the one, two, possibly third year heading into these courses and exams.
What I would say though, is that the lead from CfE is away from exam tested knowledge on a certain day on a limited subject, to skills for life, like creativity, collaboration and learning skills.
Therefore, exams such as these are less relevant for many. I am not employed because I have a GCSE in English and Maths.
I am employed because I can learn, re-learn, work under pressure, work in an (effective) team, communicate well, have good social skills and generally problem solve my way out of challenging situations.
Sadly, there is no N5 in this.

As an aside… seen this? 8)

(All credit to StuartieC for this – acquired from his Facebook.)

What I would say though, is that the lead from CfE is away from exam tested knowledge

There is a fundamental tension in education between the wish to move away from testing by exams and the fact that part of a schools function is still to sort people. Sort them into those that are good at english (for example) and those that are not. It’s a crude measure of a persons ability but it’s still important in many fields.

I have absolutely no argument with the philosophy of CFE. My complaints are with the implementation.

As an aside… seen this?

There is something surreal in that.

I have absolutely no argument with the philosophy of CFE. My complaints are with the implementation.

Absolutely.

To be fair I think it’s overly complicated, our daughter is in National 5 classes for all her subjects. At the last parents evening I was told that she was doing really well and will manage to achieve National 5 in all subjects, yet to me some of her marks in class tests have not been great.

She managed to pass a maths test with a mark of 47% and I was told that was a good mark, not in my day.

I have also been told you will only get a grade of either A,B,C,D or no award in National 5 and a simple pass or fail in National 4. That to me does not appear to be fair, so you get achieve 99% in N4 and a scrap a D in N5, yet the D is the better award…..

There is something surreal that so many people who have made a career in education reports, statements, plans, curriculum and covering their own arse, will find puts them into the spotlight and out of a QIO / Development Officer / GTCS Employee / Education Scotland /SMT well paid and comfortable job in that.

FTFY

That to me does not appear to be fair

I think one of the first changes will be exams and grades at N4. We all say that grades aren’t the be all and end all but I’ve had kids who were proud as punch to get a General 3 at Std Grade. With N4 they will be lumped together with pupils who would have got a 5 or even 6.

well paid and comfortable job in that.

My mate has a theory that the Scottish Govt are trying to get full employment by having everyone working for Education Scotland.

In a year 4 maths prelim at our local high school in a class of 18 pupils 6 had 0%,with the other 12 kids the highest was 18% . It’s working!

For the parents above (stu661, b r, Youngrob, novaswift) here are some technicalities you may or may not be aware of. One caveat is that the exact format differs slightly between subjects.

To get a N4 award pupils need to:

Pass 3 unit assessments each of which consists of (usually) 5 or 6 outcomes. Pupils need only demonstrate ‘minimum competence’ in these. Assessments are assessed and often produced by the class teacher. If a pupil does not meet an outcome teachers can ‘prompt’ them to supply more detail. Many subjects have been told that unit assessments can be open book and that if a pupil fails an assessment they can resit the exactly same assessment.

They must also pass an Added Value unit (usually a project of some sort). This too is internally assessed.

To get a N5 award they need to do all of the above plus:

Write up the results of their Added Value unit under exam conditions.
Sit a 1.5hr SQA set exam.

Both of the above are marked by the SQA.

I’m sure you’ll agree that there is no comparison between those 2 qualifications.

I’m not trying to worry you but I think parents need to know about this and I’m concerned that they don’t.

Spin. Can you explain for a simpleton like myself why they have replaced the general with something of lesser value.

As a student teacher who sat in a parent’s night last night it’s clear there is no real knowledge of the difference between the 2 although it is fair to say everyone wants their kids to be doing 5s rather than 4s. As well as the well put SQA confusion above, there is a feeling among teachers that Nat 4s are going to be impossible for potential employers/higher education unis/colleges to understand given how they can vary so much between school.

And we haven’t even mentioned National 3s.

I’ve been a year at University and taught in 2 schools and I’m just starting to get the hang of it. Not easy to explain to a concerned parent in less than 5 minutes….

Can you explain for a simpleton like myself why they have replaced the general with something of lesser value

One of the official lines is that it is to reduce the reliance on exams for pupils who are not academically inclined. The big question here is if they are not academically inclined why are they doing academic subjects and not vocational quals?

I have a suspicion though that it is a bit of a political agenda. At an SQA event I attended one of the speakers was someone I trained with. I asked her why the assessment standard was so much lower for N4. After much humming and hawing and pressure from me she said that the Scottish Government had identified that Scottish education fails those at the middle to bottom of the ability range. Rather than working out how to lift them up it seems that they have decided to lower the standards instead. The SQA of course strenuously deny that standards have been lowered.

The result is that they will be able to claim that more pupils are achieving x standard under the new system than the old.

To get a N5 award they need to do all of the above plus:

Write up the results of their Added Value unit under exam conditions.
Sit a 1.5hr SQA set exam.

Both of the above are marked by the SQA.

Some subjects are internally assessed..!

Thanks spin. As I feared,ticking boxes.

That “Tackling Bureaucracy” thing arrived at my school last week. Had to laugh after reading the list on the back of groups who produced it. Unsurprisingly – the list is long!

SQA are making a complete mess of our education system and at present using this current 4th year as guinea pigs, Completely unfair. It’s anightmare for teachers – no guidance on standards, prelim rigour or what is expected for verification. I and most of my colleagues are not happy. If I were a parent of a kid in the current 4th year I would be spitting feathers now.

Complete shambles!

Oh….and new Highers are due next year! Same year group getting f***ed about again.

Thanks for that Spin, I am even more worried now. The whole thing is a joke, as I was staring to suss out for myself.

They are more concerned about figures and stats than educating the young, shameful.

Thanks for all the info Spin, very helpful.

On the flip side, there is no better time to be doing Nat 5s than this session, as the Scottish Government and the SQA cannot allow the new curriculum to fail. There will be massive political pressure to “improve” on SG, so I predict a bumper crop of Nat 5 passes, where IIRC the “pass” is 40%.

Next session the same cohort will be muddled through “New” Highers, with, I suspect, a similar outcome.

A real issue for pupils now could well be assessment overload, with many more individual items of continual assessment in many more subjects than the traditional S5/6 cohorts (3 NABs + final exam per subject). I have fears that pupils are not prepared for this through the BGE in the Junior Phase, and in S4, many are not mature enough to cope with the more constant pressure.

the Scottish Government and the SQA cannot allow the new curriculum to fail.

My colleague raised this the other day especially as it’s referendum year. I think the SQA are under massive pressure to produce a success and are probably close to meltdown themselves.

My daughter is now a primary school teacher across the border. Her motto is “I will never teach my kids the way I was taught” Having been a guinea pig for previous changes in education and poor teachers/teaching practices at both primary and secondary levels 🙄
She is one 30 and it would seem that the education system never seems to ” learn” from its mistakes 😥

Yep. Results out a month before the big day. Who’d ‘ave thunk it, eh?

My son is one of the guinea pigs (just done his prelims). His school is doing 8 subjects (although next year it will be 6!)for Nat5.
I think the idea of a broad education is a good one, as is the idea that those leaving school at the end of S4 actually come away with something to show for all those years at school. The “broad general education to the end of S3” is also laudable, but leaves little time to prepare for them for those preparing for the Nat5 exams! Add this to the fact that Nat5s are harder than the old exams and the fact that they are now testing for an understanding of the subject rather than being just a memory test and you have a lot of rather apprehensive teachers and kids.
An example would be Maths; rather than “Solve this simultaneous equation” you get “16 bikers are racing each other in pairs, x amount scored bla, bla and y scored…”. So the pupil now needs to understand how Maths works in the real world as well as just doing the sums.
All a bit crap for this years S4 kids!

I came into a new school as subject PT in August to find the new S4 emerging from an S3 course which was a mish-mash of re-badged Standard Grade stuff and CfE BGE material, loosely matched to nebulous levels 3&4. They had done no proper N4/5 assessments. Not the fault of the school/department; no-one had any real clarity at that point on the whats or hows of unit assessments.We now have an S4 cohort who are on an assessment treadmill, many of them confused and demoralised and a staff who are trying hard not to betray signs of panic. The local authority are sending out very mixed messages to schools on the progression for this same cohort; the SQA keep shifting goalposts; there is no clarity over exam leave; verification is cripplingly bureaucratic; N4/5 development is happening apace in some subjects (thankfully, mine) due only to the initiative and collegiate approach of teaching staff who are collaborating to make up the parlous shortfall in teaching and assessment materials from Education Scotland and SQA; N6 is a vacuum at the moment… I could go on.I think we’ll get all the assessment done by the 30th June deadline and we will be much better placed next session, but it is a race against time. Massive over-emphasis on micro-assessing pupils in every subject has to change because it is unmaneagable and the “assessment standards” are completely opaque. The precedent is starting to be set; Mod Langs halved the amount of assessment with the stroke of a pen, but that this is happening mid-stream is a disgrace.

Part of me is sanguine that the results will be record-breaking for the purposes of political expediency, but I really feel for the shell-shocked S4 pupils and the broken and demoralised staff who are having to deal with this clusterf*cking omnishambles.