[Closed] American made 'dales are no more

that will go down well with Barrack "Buy American" Obama 🙂

I was going to say that the news will upset a lot of american cyclists who are very 'american is best'. But i wont as we all know its only the outspoken forum regulars (US and UK) who actualy think that american is better, oh and Brant-Lynskey fans.

It's odd.............

Cannondale who up untill now have always been built in the US, yet had a reputation a few years back (probably more due to the silly designs than any manufacturing fault) for failing (cannondale = crack'n'fail)

Specialized who have been built in Taiwan by Merrida for as long as I have been seriosuly mountainbiking yet their frames never got a reputation for cracking despite quite a few of them doing so ('04 SX swingarms, pre '04 enduro shock mounts, Demo cage/frame thingy)?

Crack'n'fail was a very apt nickname. Wills brand new Prophet snapped only last week JRA. Even BigJohn cracked one. Utter rubbish.

Crack'n'fail was a couple of years in particular but hey, it was funny to wind up 'dale riders with 🙂

I can't wait to see threads from Cannondale fans bemoaning the move to far east production even though IMO it'll probably mean better quality...

i have no idea where stuff is made anyway, if its cheaper then I might be able to afford one.

it'll probably mean better quality...

Im not surprised. I dont know how any medium to large bike maker can make a profit if their frames are not made in the Far East.

its only the outspoken forum regulars (US and UK) who actualy think that american is better, oh and Brant-Lynskey fans.

I truly think Lynskey are the best in the world at doing Ti.

I did email Frank The Welder last week about doing a production run for me as well. But he never replied 🙁

I truly think Lynskey are the best in the world at doing Ti.

I dont doubt that, but thats down to having chosen skilled crafts-men/women, not because 'america is better than taiwan' as a lot of people spout out, that was my point.

who is Frank the Welder? I've read interviews with him, i know he worked for Yeti back in the day and built sinister bikes recently, but what exactly makes him that much better than anyone else who welds bikes on a production line in Taiwan? Or is it just like having a british built road bike from a small shop with the shop (probably the same as the welder/brasers) name on the downtube. Except in aluminium obviously.

I can't wait to see threads from Cannondale fans bemoaning the move to far east production even though IMO it'll probably mean better quality...

I have a Dale, and couldn't give a monkey's toss where they are made.

Long time CDale rider, doesn't concern me too much. The Taiwanese make quality bike frames for all levels of the bike industry. Cannondale are pioneers in aluminium though, been making alu bikes longer than just about anyone. So you would hope that heritage could be preserved. It's not like moving a steel frame fabrication over to Taiwan in that respect.

The change of ownership is far more of an issue. They went bankrupt a few years back due to an ill-advised foray into motorcycles and were taken up by a venture capital firm. I think the original family-owned management structure remained in place. Last year they were then bought by Dorel - a mattress making conglomerate (!!) who own GT, Shwinn, Mongoose and other such terminally-ill brands. So it will be interesting to see whether CDale can remain such an innovative brand in that umbrella organisation.

what exactly makes him that much better than anyone else who welds bikes on a production line in Taiwan?

I'm sure he'd point out lots, though to my mind, as you say, a good weld is a good weld.

No - it was more the point of being able to offer a frame built by him in America just as a fun thing to do. It's the old Tesco jeans vs (Designer) thing.

Man - twitter and skyping Taiwanese factories messes with your head. Hard to write proper sentences. Sorry. Will try harder.

hats down to having chosen skilled crafts-men/women,

You've remembered that their best welders are women, haven't you 🙂

Most of the 'dale frame fittings seemed to be produced in Taiwan anyway so I doubt this'll make much difference. It makes sense to take advantage of the far better construction capacity and investments they've made in Taiwan then plug away with upgrading a US factory just out of tradition (almost).

You've remembered that their best welders are women, haven't you

I always knew welding was easy!

 

What proportion of the final cost of a bike is down to the cost of welding some bits of metal into a frame. I bet its not a great deal I imagine the greater part of the cost is down to the bits that are hung off the frame. As most of the components on a c/dale are made in Taiwan shouldnt the sticker say designed and assembled in the USA.

Depends if the welding is done by a skilled craftsman or not.

What are we all going to do though when no one can make a poxy bike frame in the UK. Or anything else come to think of it. It may be all fine and well for the office jockys who live on this site. But where are all the proper men going to get jobs, when everything from a tooth pick to a plane, is made in the far east? I'm sure its only a matter of time before someone in Asia can do your accounts, tax returns, or analyse figures from an office in Taiwan on a large scale and put people polishung chairs with there arses out of jobs as well.

Cannondale have been making frames that look like Marins for years, hardly makes you want to buy the Dale bikes just because they are made in the USA. Some of the frames made in Asia are ok though. I doubt they arethe quality of some of the smaller botique brands though.

Just look out for a straight out of Sunderland frame next year. Once I find some Geometry to copy 🙂

I doubt they are the quality of some of the smaller botique brands though.

Its not they are of lower skill but do people in Mcdonalds cook you up food as good as Gordon Ramsey. Both are skilled in there own ways, but I'm sure Gordon Ramsey takes a little more pride and care in his risotto than the former who might not be quite as happy earning £5 an hour.

Just simply saying if foreigners are of lower skill is far too simplistic an argument and is trying to imply anyone who dares question this is xenophobic in some way.

I've never had any problems with my 'dale crackin'n failin', but then I'm not fat......;-)

However, I certainly didn't buy it because it was made in the USA, so I don't really care to be honest (although it sucks for those who will lose their jobs of course). Far east manufacture can be just as good if not better provided proper quality controls are in place.

Welding, especially steel is pretty easy to be fair though. When we were working for du pont/ICI etc etc, we would have had our arses kicked for knocking out some of the filed down ultra neat welds you see on some bike frames, it may look better, but doesn't neccesarliy give you as a good a weld

btw, C'dale welds aren't filed down.

I never suggested they were. Infact. I don't think I've seen a modern Cannondale in the flesh

Lots of labour intensive jobs have left the west for the east because wage costs here are higher. Its not rocket science

If workers push for better conditions / rights / health & safety / etc etc then the cost goes up. But the public still expects a bargin so what does the factory owner do to stay in business ?

This does mean that the poor in the east can now begin down the economic road from subsistance farmer to factory slave to middle class worker - just as many in India did in the last couple of decades. Sooner or later we will run out of cheap third world labour.

When we run out of cheap labour in the far east what will we do then? Have no jobs here and Pay Yeti prices for On One frames! I'm sure anyone with half a brain can work out this is a bad thing all round in the medium to long term. Least Brant and Dyson make a mint in the mean time though and help all the needy countrys become middle class. I'm sure that was top of the agenda for such companys

As we continue to out source our less skilled jobs we get large sectors of the working population with no chance of employment. They vote, so you end up with governments bailing out dying industies - like the UK car industry. Rather than re-training and re-educating. The other likely outcome is more protectionism.

Doomed then really.

I remember reading in a BMX mag a while back that the average wage of a welder in Taiwan is £22k or so, which is more or less what I get for being a middle class office jockey. The reason Taiwan has such a big and cost-efficient bike industry is down to investment and economies of scale, not because the workers are paid in rice.

I do hope that frames continue to be made in the West as well though, it must be way better from an R&D point of view.

The change of ownership is far more of an issue. They went bankrupt a few years back due to an ill-advised foray into motorcycles and were taken up by a venture capital firm

dont know how to quote, but this was 2 different events for cannondale. The bike company went into liquidation due to sudden realisation that they were about to have to recall every bike and replace the cranks, internal bolts and a few other bits on every bike made, it was the cheaper option - the bikes however when fixed ar still (7 years on) amazing pieces of machinery way ahead of their time - Ive got one and have been riding it for 4 years now. It was however only the motorsports co that went into liquidation.

A couple of years later howeverthe original owners of cannondale sold the bike company out (for $xmillions), I gues theri retirement fund. IT had nothing to do with motorsports.

Personally I think its a bit sad. If you rode in the early 90s bikes were made (properly) in america (incl kona specialized etc...). It was just the way it was, IVe still got a 1994 cannondale that I still ride to this day - its a fantastic frame. What it doesnt say is if the bikes are still going to be handmade or just chucked in a jig and welded by machines...

Mass produced ones will be made where its cheap, boutique handmade specials will be made close to home where shipping / spares / customer support matter more.

One of the Ironies for me is the Meridia factory was built as an exact copy of the raleigh factory, as it was perceived as being such a good example of a bike factory.It's sad, in the late 80's I lusted after a cannondale with it's huge down-tube, as an alternative to a Zasker, now where are these companies?

I have a US made 'Dale, but I don't think it's any better than a lot of Taiwanese stuff. The Far-Eastern industries have improved considerable from 20 years ago or so, and most bike stuff is made their anyway.

As for manufacturing standards; I'm not sure if a welder in the US, on a pretty basic wage, is in any way superior to a welder in Taiwan, on a relatively similar basic wage. Maybe a small workshop, with a couple of blokes who really enjoy building bikes, might have greater attention to detail, but I doubt workers in big factories are really any more motivated, based on geographic location.

Cannondale make nice bikes, but they've always been spensive, compared with yer Marins, Treks and Specializeds. If they want to compete, then they need to be able to match production costs with those companies, and get their products out to compete directly, at certain price points.

Santa Cruz's are made in Taiwan, and people still buy them. Likewise On-Ones. The 'brand' is a myth; the reality is that most of it is mass-produced in huge factories.

I truly think Lynskey are the best in the world at doing Ti.

No bias at all, then, eh, Brant? 😉

I don't care where the ****ing thing is made, as long as it don't fall apart.

Did you mean late 90s? as I'm pretty sure that the Zaskar only came out in '91.

Mass produced ones will be made where its cheap, boutique handmade specials will be made close to home where shipping / spares / customer support matter more.

not 100% sure your right, specialized, scott etc by all accounts have good support, where'as i can think of at least one South Wales based company that regularly gets slagged off for its attitude to warranty work.

Couldn't give a monkeys where they'r made, or that they look like old Marins. Anyway, I'd say its more an evolution of the super V (which gained a higher pivot and became the gemini, which looks remarkably like a prophet).

Cannondales standard of welding and subsequent grinding down of the welds has decrease substantially over the last few years anyway. You look at a 10year old frame compared to a modern one and the workmanship isnt even in the same league.

No - it was more the point of being able to offer a frame built by him in America just as a fun thing to do. It's the old Tesco jeans vs (Designer) thing.

I'd buy an FTW frame (so long as I could take the Tweak sticker off 😉 )

If you had multiple "indentical" frames, one each welded by man, 1 by machine, in either USA or Taiwan would you be actually able to tell the difference? I doubt it.

So many of these arguements are really about "supposed" differences based upon a perceived difference at an emotional level, when in actual fact they really aren't different at all.

If you ask me its more about brand loyalties and nationalistic preferences than anything else.

I bought a '96 USA made Zaskar framset because it was what i wanted at the time. i.e. solid durable bike. I bought an '04 enduro for simlar reasons. The fact that the GT was welded in USA and the Spesh was welded in Taiwan doesnt matter.

Yes i'd prefer if it was welded and built in the UK, thus supporting the home economy, but the fact of the matter is if it was UK made then it would probably have pushed the price beyond my reach.

Its all about economies of scale and thus reducing costs than any quality issues.

Oh and older 'dales did have their welds filed smooth before painting, mostly for aesthetics than anything else IIRC.

Cannondales standard of welding and subsequent grinding down of the welds has decrease substantially over the last few years anyway. You look at a 10year old frame compared to a modern one and the workmanship isnt even in the same league.

As bigyinn mentions above, older C'dales did use a weld grinding technique to produce super smooth results.
However, these days they use a two pass, puddle welding technique that provides better penetration and thus strength, while still giving a smooth finish without grinding.
This is why newer ones don't look quite as smooth an nice as old ones.

Just simply saying if foreigners are of lower skill is far too simplistic an argument and is trying to imply anyone who dares question this is xenophobic in some way.

i dont think the comparisons of Ramsey Vs McD are correct, thats too much of a difference in scale. look at TVR, everyone loved them but they always broke, a ford escort is made on a production line and its (relatively) more reliable.

My understanding of the crack-n-fail thing was the fact that if you did have a problem with a Cannodale frame, it had to be sent back to Amsterdam (or somewhere) for warranty, and it took ages, this got customers backs up and from what I understand, poor warranty service was the major reason why my LBS stopped selling Cannodale.

[i]American made 'dales are no more[/i]

Thank God for that, Cannondale finally realising what they should have done 10 years ago, moved production somewhere where they make decent reliable frames at a fraction of the price that they can in America!

[i]My understanding of the crack-n-fail thing was the fact that if you did have a problem with a Cannodale frame, it had to be sent back to Amsterdam (or somewhere) for warranty, and it took ages, this got customers backs up and from what I understand, poor warranty service was the major reason why my LBS stopped selling Cannodale. [/i]

Cannondale europe is all run from one place in the Netherlands so all European Cannondales that broke (that's a LOT of bikes!) had to be sent to one place for processing and it took forever. Cannondale had a bad few years with breakages and it coincided with the time they were using that God-awful in-house Coda shite which was utterly useless. That and the "Made in America" tag which meant the bikes were more expensive than Specialized/Trek/Giant etc on the shop floor hence poor sales figures, poor warranty/customer service so LBS's don't want to sell them anymore. It's taken an age for the "crack n fail" tag to fade away and the company to try and rebuild their reputation.

I'd still never buy one though...

We stopped selling them in '98 because they tried to bend us over the shop counter with pre-orders to get decent stock levels. This was back when they were the 3rd most expensive bike on our shop floor and everyone else was offering us 90 days credit as a minimum (even on the new year lines) yet Cannondale wanted payment in full before the bikes were in store and if we wouldn't give them a 150 bike pre-order they were going to restrict our stock access.

We didn't miss them from a warranty point of view.

Funnily enough Marin tried the same thing the next year insisting we gave them a £50k pre-order [i](having only seen the brochure!)[/i]. How we laughed.

I thought it was the Raven that earned C'dale the Crack'n'Fail nickname...

I thought it was the Raven that earned C'dale the Crack'n'Fail nickname...

I think it was the 3.0 frames with the 1" head tubes. I remember head tubes lying around at races circa 1991....

I think it's great news that they've outsourced their building.

OK, American here to give you the scoop. It's been a while since Cdale has been any kind of player in the MTBike scene. Many of us thought they spent way too much time drawing up really clever things, and not enough time asking if they were really good marketable ideas. The issue really is that another dedicated bicycle maker has wound up in the hands of business man who have no love of bicycles. When we heard they had been picked up by Doral ( Who had owned Schwinn) it was understood that, no matter what was said about preserving the nature and identity of the brand, the Cdale we all knew was finished. Not long before we see the Cdale name on toy bikes sold at big box department stores.

I think it's a shame they have gone that down route, It went tits up when they did that silly motorbike imo. While some of their concept bikes were truly ****ed up they also produced some good bikes. I love my Prophet MX it does everything from xc, all day rides and downhill. I've owned quite a few Cannondales and have enjoyed them all i've always regret selling my Gemini DH.