@avdave2 that sounds awesome. Sounds like he was a pretty good shot! The RM museum or imperial war museum might be very interested in some of those documents. I have pondered many times who may have carried the No4. I am currently entrusted with during the war.

I enjoy a good bash on GTAV; I do feel a bit bad about it though, and I’m really not sure it’s going to be good for our society that kids are routinely playing it and other morally dubious games. 😳.

Only game I ever truly loved was GTA San Andreas. I don’t feel bad about that.

Nor do I feel bad about watching the telly where the subject is murder or other horrific violent crimes. (see the inside no9 thread and the netflix thread).

Before that, people read books; and before they could read, it was spoken to you. Fairly certain there was some murdering in Hamlet.

Enjoying something as a fantasy doesn’t mean you want to live it out in real life; nor does it mean you identify with the protagonist, just because you like the way the character was written.

No problem with gun threads here – find them quite interesting actually. Provided guns are properly regulated, which they do seem to be in this country, then I have no problem with them.

So post about something you do like OP. Air rifle shooting is fun and you won’t know until you try it. If you don’t want to then don’t but please, don’t be a hater.

“I find threads about guns distasteful”

*Immediately starts a new thread about guns*

Yeah, if you want glorification of killing aimed at young, impressionable minds, you need look no further than gaming.

The fundamental thing you have to understand about this is, it’s abject bollocks.

Kids aren’t stupid. They know it’s fantasy, and it’s fantasy that’s been endemic long before video games thought to progress beyond Pong. Books, TV, movies… christ, Tom and Jerry were ‘glorifying violence’ some 80 years ago, I’m sure we all remember the 1940s craze of kids going round whacking each other in the faces with frying pans and dropping anvils on each other.

The Daily Mail narrative that the latest mass shooting was committed by someone who ‘played video games’ is, generously, correlation rather than causation. Someone who is predisposed to going on a shooting spree is of course also going to be drawn to violence in other forms. No right-minded teenager ever played GTA or Call of Duty and then went “right, I’m gonna go shoot me some prostitutes for reals,” they were wrong in the head to start with and they’d have been wrong in the head whether they’d played video games or not.

As a society we do so very much like to have something to demonise, it’s a nice smoke-screen to deflect from actually taking some responsibility. When I was growing up it was television rotting kids’ minds, in my parents’ era it was rock & roll, go back far enough and we were burning books.

OP – there is definitely a portion of the shooting lobby who are playing soldier/frontiers man and amongst those are some who do get pleasure in killing. If you’ve been exposed to those then I can see your point but they are in a very small minority.

OTOH for most folk, shooting is just another activity/sport that, to do well, requires skill, patience and a certain “attitude”.

I don’t see the issue in starting this thread either. If it’s to discuss the idea of shooting then you are more likely to get a balanced response than one only likely to be read by folk who are into it (I didn’t open the Air Rifle thread}.

I find unsubstantiated anti-gun threads distasteful.

I’ve shot air rifle, .22lr and shotgun since I was a young teen and I’ve had some of the best times and met some of the best people purely due to my affiliation to the sport.

The fundamental thing you have to understand about this is, it’s abject bollocks.
Kids aren’t stupid. They know it’s fantasy,

Have you taught many 9 years old that stay up till 9 or 10 playing fortnite? And then wonder why what they do to their friends in Fortnite can’t be done for real in the playground?

When I was growing up it was television rotting kids’ minds

Growing up I was exposed to a lot of racist, sexist and homophobic attitudes on TV. I’m pretty sure it affected me in a negative way.

@blokeuptheroad

The RM museum or imperial war museum might be very interested in some of those documents.

Once I have everything together we’ll look at what to do with it all. I also have his battledress, his original letter from Eisenhower his medals including his Legion d’Honneur and his Dutch liberators medal and at the weekend I found a 1941 German map of Caen and the surrounding area. Other items including a machine gunners manual and the full guide to the Thompson submachine gun. Much of this was in a cardboard box in the garage the mice had been at but fortunately they’d only eaten a few books at the bottom.  At one time he was also apparently in  possession of 2 Lugers but they got handed in as his wife didn’t like them in the house. There is I believe a small museum in Rots in Normandy nearby the memorial to the 22 men of 46 Commando who died in liberating the village from the 12th SS Panzer Division “Hitlerjugend” They have never forgotten what happened there and every year mark the occasion. In 2015 when Steve went back there he was presented with the freedom of the village and granted the status of a <span lang=”fr”>C</span>itoyen d’honneur. I’d like if possible everything to stay together and it would I think be fitting if it went there. I know the daughter of one of the liberated citizens was still in touch with him right up to his death.

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Growing up I was exposed to a lot of racist, sexist and homophobic attitudes on TV. I’m pretty sure it affected me in a negative way.

what exactly did you see? Characters who’s views were less than sociably acceptable for the time in which the show was set?

Part of the point of a TV show is to show something that isn’t just your regular life. (Though this doesn’t explain the love of Corrie or Reality shows)

Some one pop a cap in his ass give him something real to complain about.

@avdave2

It’s fantastic that you have all this stuff safe and are looking into what to do with it. A real treasure trove of history. An ordinary young man who, like millions of others of his generation, experienced momentous events. I would have loved to have had a chinwag with him over a pint.

Have you taught many 9 years old that stay up till 9 or 10 playing fortnite? And then wonder why what they do to their friends in Fortnite can’t be done for real in the playground?

That’s not a problem with the game, it’s a parenting issue. Fortnite is PEGI 12 for a start, they shouldn’t be playing it at all.

Growing up I was exposed to a lot of racist, sexist and homophobic attitudes on TV. I’m pretty sure it affected me in a negative way.

Growing up I was exposed to a lot of racist, sexist and homophobic attitudes on TV. I’m pretty sure it affected me in a positive way, because I recognised that those people were unpleasant shits and I couldn’t see any reason why anyone would behave that way.

“Fortnite” is rated “T” for Teen by the Entertainment Software Rating Board or ESRB, mainly due to violence (gunfire, explosions, cries of pain). It gets a “12” rating from the Pan European Game Information group, known as PEGI. Common Sense Media recommends 13-plus.

So yeah, guns aren’t solely for killing any more than javelins, bows or throwing axes are. There is a lot of skill involved in being a decent shooter and I have utter respect for anyone who can land the shots that the guys with .50 cals manage (multiple crosswinds, changes in elevation and such). Yes people hunt with them and yes I would given the chance but that’s down to personal ethics, as said it’s better than the crap you buy rom the supermarket.

I’d seriously say don’t knock it until you’ve tried it, yes there are the Mike Watt types who like to wander around the HFT courses in camo gear (lest those metal targets get scared) and plenty of us will engage in some lighthearted pisstaking but in the most part they are friendly and would rather let someone have a go and actually see what is involved than let them walk away with misconceptions.

As said there is also a lot of tinkering to be done which is no different to the messing about folk do with forks and such to tune them.

On actual guns, I have no problem with any of them although I do find “black” (military style) guns to be problematic from an image POV but with proper regulation the problem is only that.

Have you taught many 9 years old that stay up till 9 or 10 playing fortnite? And then wonder why what they do to their friends in Fortnite can’t be done for real in the playground?

I’d wonder whether said 9 year old was entirely developed mentally myself if they still think they can recreate something they saw in a game by that age.

To the average joe guns etc are pathetic.

I’m not sure that’s true, we have less of a “Gun culture” in the UK than other countries and so you are less likely to have come into contact with, or had a need to use a gun. But people in the UK still find Guns interesting/attractive even in the right circumstances.

I’m enough of a townie to know I’m a townie, I grew up in Dorset and therefore over the course of my life I’ve had the experience of using Air rifles a few times to plink targets and the odd go shooting clays with a shotgun. That minimal use of them has built a bit of familiarity and reinforced a “healthy respect” for firearms. I certainly won’t go searching for chances to fire a gun any time soon, but I at least understand how one is used and how to be safe with one in my hands.

I subscribe to the idea that guns are primarily tools, like a saw or an excavator, they can serve a few different purposes; not all of those purposes are ones we would personally want to get involved in.
Personally I’m happy for guns, as tools, to be primarily used in the UK by those properly trained and with a legitimate reason to operate them. just like I’m happy to use a saw for myself, I’m adequately trained and familiar enough with it’s use, but I’d probably get someone else in to use an excavator as that’s a bit more specialist and carries greater risks.
The same goes for firearms, I pay my taxes and that pays in part for military and police personnel to be trained to use those ‘tools’ under the circumstances where they are unfortunately needed.
Similarly where they are used in an agricultural setting or as part of the leisure industry (plinking targets and shooting at targets/clays) gun ownership and use is licenced and monitored in this country…

I think what you have to accept OP is that as distasteful as you may find guns, they can’t be “un-invented” they exist, on occasion their use is necessary and within the confines of the law people have the right to own and operate them for a variety of purposes. All that you can really hope for is that the society you live in places sensible rules and constraints around their use so as to minimise the risks without stamping all over individual’s freedoms in the process.
I happen to think that here in the UK we’ve gotten the balance much closer to ‘right’ than many other countries…

I certainly don’t think you should seek to shut down legitimate discussion about firearms just because you might not like it, you can of course opt out of the discussion, or choose to participate and put forward your opinions. But to (effectively) suggest guns simply shouldn’t be discussed (on a forum that roams merrily across most topics) is frankly a little illiberal and selfish…

Okay, I’ll admit the ‘Fortnite turns children into murderers’ line is somewhat doubtful. However, I’ll post again what convert said:

C… I got to see tens of corpses charred beyond recognition and the stench of burned bodies. I saw the outright fear in the eyes of young captured soldiers who thought there about to get shot. Why anyone would want to sanitise that and normalise it and then why anyone would want to ‘pretend’ to be part of it is unfathomable to me. Total ignorance of the reality I guess.

Games like Fortnite make a game out of something abhorrent. It’s not like, I dunno, Saving Private Ryan or Dunkirk or 1917 or such films where the abhorrence is the point, i.e. to make you think “that was awful”. The point of the games is to make you go “that was great!”. That’s at the very least distasteful, surely?

Have you taught many 9 years old that stay up till 9 or 10 playing fortnite? And then wonder why what they do to their friends in Fortnite can’t be done for real in the playground?

I’ve often caught my 11 year old wandering about with a pencil and some paper trying to build a ramp out of wood.

Fortunately his access to glowing chests full of purple firearms is limited.

Kids aren’t stupid. They know it’s fantasy,

That’s not a problem with the game, it’s a parenting issue. Fortnite is PEGI 12 for a start, they shouldn’t be playing it at all..

So do kids understand it fantasy or not?

Growing up I was exposed to a lot of racist, sexist and homophobic attitudes on TV. I’m pretty sure it affected me in a positive way, because I recognised that those people were unpleasant shits

I’m sorry I’m not as perceptive as you and I sorry you think I’m easily influenced and therefore an unpleasant shit. Or I could just call “bullshit” on your holier than thou attitude.

@blokedowntheroad I doubt he’d of told you much. My mum and dad went in to Steve 3 times a day 7 days a week 365 days a year for years, for and the last 3 years as his mobility declined my dad would spend the first couple of hours of everyday helping him get out of bed and ready for the day. In all that time he only mentioned the war in vague terms. We knew he’d been wounded a couple of times but we only found out after he’d died the details. The first time when a German sniper shot him in the foot and in trying to extract him his captain threw a phosphorus grenade rather too close to him and then later after they had crossed the Rhine he was hit by shellfire. All he ever said about his role was that the commanding officer had given him the instruction to find out where the Germans went for a crap in the morning and shoot them in the arse! The idea being they’d not be back on active service anytime soon and it’d take a lot of resources to look after them. He was a great character and full of life and stories but the war was rarely mentioned and only in vague terms generally.

And then wonder why what they do to their friends in Fortnite can’t be done for real in the playground?

No no, it’s much more complex than this.

For a start, let’s just make a distinction between Fortnite and Call of Duty. The former is stylised and very clearly a game in the same way that paintballing is. I have no issue with this other than the general addictiveness which kids (and adults) struggle to cope with and the impact that might have on their development.

However, the war games are different because they strive for realism, but they are still fun. So kids who play them may end up associating wars with excitement and adventure, and not really appreciate the horror of the situation. This is of course nothing new – war was always portrayed as such, presumably to get people to sign up for it and support it, but since WWI we’ve been trying to show that it is not an exciting caper but is in fact pretty miserable. This isn’t just relating to the young people who might sign up for combat; it’s about the people at home who vote for the people who take us into wars. If people think it’s all about good guys trouncing the bad guys and we’re the good guys, then they support it, vote for it, and people end up dying in quite large numbers.

If we really wanted to understand how horrible war is, kids should not be playing fun games about it.

The movies are slightly different. I have a feeling that kids who go to see these things are being shown war in a comfortable safe setting, with parents, and are being reassured that ‘it’s ok’ when they see violence on screen. When really, it’s not ok, not at all.

What’s worth bearing in mind is the level of restriction placed on firearms owners here in the UK. In order to obtain a certificate authorising a person to possess and use a firearm there are many, many hoops to jump through. If we deal with shotguns first we can get some of the slightly less onerous requirements out of the way. In order to own and use a shotgun ( smooth bore, firing cartridges containing shot rather than solid projectiles, either single, double barrelled or with a fixed magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges) then it is up to the police to grant a certificate UNLESS there is a good reason why that person should not have one. Examples of unsuitability would be criminal convictions, intemperate habits, various unresolved mental health issues, inappropriate associations etc etc. Shotguns can be used on any land with the landowner’s permission or to shoot clays etc.

Firearms are a different kettle of fish altogether. Here we’re talking about rifles firing single projectiles varying from 0.17″ up to massive stuff like .50″ In order to obtain a certificate to acquire and use a firearm the applicant must first of all have good reason to possess and use one. If we deal with target shooting first, in general terms you need to be a member of an established rifle club. The majority of clubs will accept you as a probationary member and allow you to borrow firearms under strictly controlled conditions. After a lengthy probation (IIRC 12 months are the norm) you will be allowed to become a member. At this point you can apply for your certificate. The membership of the club becomes your “good reason” to possess. You submit an application form to your local police.

On the application form you are required to declare ALL previous convictions and cautions. Nothing is discounted by way of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, so nothing recorded at any time in the past is considered “spent”. Not all convictions or cautions are a barrier to granting a certificate, but failure to disclose anything will be. You also need to sign a declaration that you have not at any time been treated for a mental health issue or other illness that may affect your suitability to possess firearms. If you have at any time been treated for such a condition, then the police will need a report from your GP as to whether that condition can be considered resolved, or unlikely to affect your suitability. In any case, your GP will be informed that you have made an application and will be required to notify them of any condition or history of concern. Your medical records will be flagged, and the GP required to notify the police in the future of any such concern as and when it arises.

You also need to supply two referees who will vouch for your good character. The police will contact them and ask various questions as to your associations, character and habits.

The second route into firearms possession is no less complicated. If you want or need to shoot live quarry this can be viewed as “good reason”. So a farmer wants to control rabbits and foxes to protect crops and livestock, and you rock up and offer to do this for them. The farmer gives you authority to shoot and so you apply to the police for a certificate. The police will want to see written authority to shoot, and will in many cases inspect the land in question to determine whether it is safe to use certain types of firearms over that land. They will also want to know whether you have experience in the sort of rifle and ammunition required to shoot the intended quarry species. Home Office guidelines and industry best practice give rough guidance as to the appropriate calibre for various species, and for example for rabbit control will only allow smaller calibres such as .17 or .22LR. For foxes they will deem a .22″ centrefire or similar(usually up to 6mm) the maximum calibre necessary. In other words they will restrict the initial applicant to certain calibres, and won’t allow you to use the sort of calibres that would drop a full-grown elk just to keep Charlie off the hens. They will also want to know what your experience is of using those firearms, and can impose whatever conditions they see fit on your certificate. They will also restrict the amount of ammunition you can possess at any one time.

So in order to possess a firearm the applicant must be squeaky-clean, with no significant health issues. They must be stored securely, and only used strictly in accordance with the law and the conditions on your certificate. If at any time your health deteriorates your GP is bound by law to inform the police, and their initial action will be to suspend your certificate, with a view to revoking it if circumstances dictate.

The head of every firearms department in the country has a daily report sent to them. Police systems flag up ALL certificate holders, shotgun and firearms, and if they come to notice for any reason whatsoever, whether as an offender, suspected offender, victim or in some cases even as a witness, the report will contain details of that incident. The head of department will scrutinise that report and make a decision there and then as to whether that incident requires further attention. So, get locked up for drink-driving, drunk and disorderly, minor public order offences, a domestic disturbance, your firearms will be seized and they’ll pull your certificate. Fall out with your neighbours over parking in front of the drive? They’ll take your firearms off you until it can be proved you’re not a threat. That level of real-time scrutiny is not enjoyed by any other members of our community.

TL;DR?
People who own firearms are, I would argue, amongst the most law-abiding members of our society. They won’t have anything more than the most minor of previous history, and they know that the moment they step out of line they will be under the microscope with a view to being deprived of their pastime. My son for example, will not now go drinking in town. He’s a big lad and knows that it only takes one incident involving drunken idiots to lose his ticket, on which he depends for his career and hobbies.

He was a great character and full of life and stories but the war was rarely mentioned and only in vague terms generally.

I wonder how he’d feel about his son or grandson playing CoD?

^ an excellent question

Hi, I am the OP of the original thread.

Please be reassured, I am a rational woman in her 40s, with no previous convictions, who just wants a basic air rifle to shoot pellets at paper targets; which I promise to recycle responsibly.

So do kids understand it fantasy or not?

You’ve moved the goalposts, you’re talking about kids playing age-inappropriate games. Games have age ratings for a reason (and in any case, your average 9-year old isn’t likely to be walking into ASDA with an AK-47 any time soon, in the UK at least).

I’m sorry I’m not as perceptive as you and I sorry you think I’m easily influenced and therefore an unpleasant shit. Or I could just call “bullshit” on your holier than thou attitude.

Woah, hang on. You’ve misunderstood me there, I wasn’t calling you names, I was referring to the people in the TV shows. Apologies if you thought otherwise, that wasn’t my intent at all.

I am a rational woman in her 40s, with no previous convictions,

Yeah, but are you any good at Fortnite?

I like gun threads as I watch a lot of gun channels on YouTbue mostly on target/competition shooting. As a kid I used to hunt with my uncle with a double barrels shot gun and the gun is heavy. To me there is nothing distasteful about guns so long as they don’t shoot wildlife for fun i.e. trophy hunters, or shooting animals for no reason. However, in a defensive situation that is a different matter.

I wonder how he’d feel about his son or grandson playing CoD?

I truly wish I could have asked him that question but he never had children. He didn’t marry until hes was 53 and his wife 54 in the mid 70’s. I think though they had been partners since the early to mid 50’s but the impression I got was that he’d spent a lot of time looking after his mother and she her father. I can honestly say that anyone would have loved to have him as a father. I don’t think for one minute he’d of liked those games but he did like a film with as he would put it “a bit of head chopping” and at 97 loved all the cgi of a superheroes film!

OP – you do know that gun sport features in the Olympics don’t you – and not in a ‘Hunger Games’ way either.

I am a rational woman in her 40s, with no previous convictions,

Yeah, but are you any good at Fortnite?

I don’t have time for that rubbish.
I’m too busy using my flamethrower to barbeque red squirrels.

Oooh! TuftyRoaster 3 on the xbox?

and in any case, your average 9-year old isn’t likely to be walking into ASDA with an AK-47 any time soon, in the UK at least

No but this isn’t about mimicry, it’s about how we grow up to think about violence. As I’m sure you’re aware, other countries have similar levels of gun ownership but only the US has weekly mass shootings in schools. So why is this? There are probably many reasons, but the attitude towards violence is probably one. If you watch many films and TV shows, conflict is resolved through violence. Take Back to the Future for example – wholesome family movie for sure and the trilogy has positive messages, but in the first film the whole story arc focuses on getting the hero to punch out the bad guy. He doesn’t use his intelligence to outwit or side-step him, he punches him and that makes everything ok. And this isn’t really discussed, everyone loves it as a family film still, as if no-one has noticed this major theme. (I’ll bet some posters on this thread will jump down my throat too)

Now I’m not suggesting that the US gun crime epidemic is related to movies or video games, that would be crass. But they are symptoms of a tough-guy culture which is corrosive in many ways. And this will not change unless we watch different movies and TV shows* and play different video games.

* take later episodes of Bones for example. Watch how the tough guy cop avoids violence, doesn’t shoot bad guys unless it’s avoidable, and gets emotionally beaten up when he can’t avoid it. It’s only a dumb TV show but they are trying to bring a different understanding of violence. For behaviour to change we have to display what we want to see in others.

Oooh! TuftyRoaster 3 on the xbox?

No, Red Dead Rodent II on PS4

STW behind the curve again?
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/mar/10/i-swapped-my-gun-for-binoculars-indias-hunters-turn-to-conservation-aoe

Can we have a mumsnet section please for the easily offended.

Can we have a mumsnet section please for the easily offended.

Really? They let far more shit fly than on here. They even let you use adult words.

EDIT: And now I’ve been proven wrong. Damn you STW!

You submit an application form to your local police.

On the application form you are required to declare ALL previous convictions and cautions. Nothing is discounted by way of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, so nothing recorded at any time in the past is considered “spent”.

Can I ask you a bit about this? What’s the point in declaring convictions, won’t the police already know? And if they don’t know, you’ll get away with not declaring them?

Can I ask you a bit about this? What’s the point in declaring convictions, won’t the police already know? And if they don’t know, you’ll get away with not declaring them?

So they can see if you try to lie about it and thus immediately prove yourself a wrong ‘un?