I used to jetwash clean cones that were used on motorways, using traffic film remover (truckwash). It was really nasty stuff, your skin would fall off if you handled it neat.

Also, washing up liquid is crap for disc brakes as well, it messes up the pads / rotors surfaces and make them squeak / not work correctly.

this is bollards, sorry. I’ve used nothing but washing up liquid on my bikes since forever, and my brakes a re fine as are my rotors, nothing squeaks or leaks or anything…

As you may have seen I’m working on formulating a new bike cleaner – just taken it out of lab now (9 iterations) for real world testing. Test samples have gone out to a few people. In the lab its performed better than competitor products so fingers crossed.

You can read a little about it and keep up to date

http://dirtwork.posterous.com/

To add to previous comments, I wouldn’t use TFR on my bike, too caustic. I wouldn’t use washing up liquid either due to the salt – won’t rust your bike away but won’t help bearings and steel cavities it finds its way into.

And for those mentioning about buying repackaged carvan cleaner I should add my Dirt Work is formulated from scratch, for a bike, by chemists!

I’ve got an old road bike in the workshop that’s been washed with washing up liquid regularly for the last 30 years or so
Hang on, I’ll just go check .

No, it’s not rusted away to nothing yet.
You had me worried then, I was expecting to open the garage door find nothing but a pile of dust

washing up liquid is crap for disc brakes as well, it messes up the pads / rotors surfaces and make them squeak / not work correctly.

this is bollards, sorry. I’ve used nothing but washing up liquid on my bikes since forever, and my brakes a re fine as are my rotors, nothing squeaks or leaks or anything…

It doesn’t matter, this isn’t something that can be resolved on the internets. You guys experience is obviously different to mine, and that is fine. My recent experience has pointed to washing up liquid screwing up my headset twice, and also messing up my disc breaks (maybe it is the pads? I dunno). Thinking about it for more than 0.005 seconds, it is not the right application for it (otherwise fairy would just squirt a bit into some water and sell it in bikeshops for £10 a litre), and I ain’t going to argue with anyone who thinks that salt water + bare steel is a good idea.

househusband – Member

TFR? (Traffic Film Remover)

Bought five litres of the stuff for the car, and it’s good for the bike too. Probably quite caustic so don’t use it generously, and water it way down. Cheap as chips.

right on!…

TFR does indeed have costic…ideal in a chain cleaning device undiluted but best at least 50/50 or even 20/80 so no soap stains…
i use Neilson products TRF which is available via there lorrys VAT free if you pay cash, how does around £30 for a 5 gallon drum with tap top sound?… thats 25 gallons of soap once diluted!
i get it free but happy to give some to any mates…
oh and chains,bearings etc on my bikes last as long as anyone elses 😮
just like cycling greases bike cleaner is a bit of a rip off im afraid…

Muck Off…………. Evil 👿

Never used it though……

FENWICKS any day of the week 😛

Never had a problem with muc off, I dilute it to make it last longer and keep all cleaning products away from bearings –

I use muc-off and have no problems at all. Just don’t be a dick and blast it into bearings.

coastkid: Correct.

I’ve used TFR for years, just dilute it properly. All the specific Bike ones are just marketing tosh.
Hth
Marko

A few facts (but don’t let this get in the way!).

TFR’s are “harsh”, pH 12+ and normally built with caustic soda actives or metasilicates that hydrolyse to caustic, both of which can be aggressive to paint and aluminium.

A properly formulated bike cleaner would be formulated sympathetically to above, employ alkalis that are known to be passivators, particularly for alloys and be safe in long term application. They’d also likely contain higher levels of surfactant and be better at breaking and lift dirt such as mud and grease.

Also remember the very high pH of TFR should not enter the surface water rain water drains post use.

As for the washing up liquid most if not all are viscosity modified with various levels of common salt – Sodium Chloride – which again will aggravate the potential for corrosion / oxidation – obviously red rust on ferrous iron or white oxides with un-lacquered aluminium.

As for the washing up liquid most if not all are viscosity modified with various levels of common salt – Sodium Chloride – which again will aggravate the potential for corrosion / oxidation – obviously red rust on ferrous iron or white oxides with un-lacquered aluminium.

…and which is water soluble, and used in a dilute solution. Maybe that’s why 20 odd years of using it hasn’t yet resulted in any problems.

These kind of threads always bring out the ‘Oh my God, it’s got salt in!’ comments, with very little thought as to the way it is used (but don’t let this get in the way!).

No one’s saying its going to rust your bike away, I said it would “aggravate the potential” which frankly it will.

Enough posts around about peoples steel frames rusting, these people shouldn’t use washing up liquid which will “aggravate the potential” for further rusting.

I said it would “aggravate the potential”

Hmmm, yes….

I was going to comment on that phrase but you’ve done it yourself; did you mean ‘might make it more likely’? 🙄

…and if you wanna play the science card;

1. How much salt is in washing up liquid?
2. What amount of salt is used in a standard bike washing dose?
3. What concentration of salt is in the standard soapy water in bucket that people use?
4. What concentration of salt remains after a cursory rinse?
5. What concentration of salt remains after a through rinse?

6. How do the above concentrations compare with the salt concentration found on the bike after a winter road ride on gritted roads?

7. What is the salt concentration of mud?

IMO the salt in washing up liquid is a boogeyman, used by the bike and car cleaning industry to encourage us to pay more for fancy cleaning products. Your interpretation may differ, but if you are using the scary salt technique, answer the above.

Crikey lots of questions.

You could check a SDS to check concentrations of Sodium Chloride, I’d imagine its around 2%.

The point is of course you end up with a saline solution, however weak or strong, that unless you are very careful will get where you don’t want it.

The bigger point is that do you think a commodity product formulated t clean dishes is going to be as good as a product specifically formulated for cleaning bikes (or cars, or anything).

Do you shower in washing up liquid?

Crikey lots of questions.

..with a notable lack of answers.

The bigger point is that do you think a commodity product formulated t clean dishes is going to be as good as a product specifically formulated for cleaning bikes (or cars, or anything).

..given that the properties of washing up liquid; adequate degreasing ability, cheapness, availablity, low incidence of skin problems, ecologically acceptable, good rinsability, low residue, pleasant smell in use would all appear to be exactly what I want from a product which cleans bikes, yes I do.

The parallels between washing dishes and washing bikes are obvious…

So…..

given that you’ve introduced the idea that washing up liquid is too salty, are you going to answer the above questions?

The bigger point is that do you think a commodity product formulated t clean dishes is going to be as good as a product specifically formulated for cleaning bikes (or cars, or anything).

See this is why I originally posted this topic, having always used fairy liquid and then seeing how easy the dirt came off when using the Muc off. Honestly if you have not tried it, it’s like chalk and cheese!

Anyway Fenwicks FS1 see’s to be popular, but do let us know when you release your product damo, I trust it will be much cheapness 😀 perhaps you want a product tester.

..given that the properties of washing up liquid; adequate degreasing ability, cheapness, availablity, low incidence of skin problems, ecologically acceptable, good rinsability, low residue, pleasant smell in use would all appear to be exactly what I want from a product which cleans bikes, yes I do.

If you ride your bike though baked beans and chips then sure. And you could say the same about hair shampoo, face wash, pretty much all cleaning products.

Look, I’m not saying Washing Up liquid won’t clean your bike, it will. So will hair shampoo and many other household products. But they will all perform differently.

If you don’t believe that then try your own tests. I have and can tell different products do perform differently. Ultimately it comes down to do you want a product that works ok or one that is the best for the job at hand and formulated with that job in mind.

In relation to your questions re salt I don’t have time to work it out but I agree with the thrust of your of questioning which is that the %age of salt is low, and lower in solution etc.

See this is why I originally posted this topic, having always used fairy liquid and then seeing how easy the dirt came off when using the Muc off. Honestly if you have not tried it, it’s like chalk and cheese!

Exactly.

If you’re interested in seeing how different products perform, look at this, the one’s on the right are both mine and less than 0.5% different – but there is a clear difference in performance.
http://dirtwork.posterous.com/dev-samples-8-and-9-ready-to-release-for-test

Straight Fenwicks on the chain, Green Oil’s cleaner on the rest of the bike occaionally.

good grief don’t any of you people ride on salty roads in winter? or are you too worried your bikes will dissolve into a pile of rust? I’ve used hairy lipped squid for about 20 years, washed off after, and no damage has ever been incurred. I do chuckle when i see people spray several quids worth of pink water on their bikes after each ride. oh and a solution of fairy in a chain cleaner works wonders on a really manky chain too, just make sure to leave it in the chain and add some salt and sand after.

I don’t dispute that there are ‘better’ bike cleaners out there, and I’m all for the development of new stuff.

I do have a big problem with the idea that the best way to sell a product is to imply a problem with the competition/alternative that then doesn’t really stand up to scrutiny.

If you ride your bike though baked beans and chips then sure

This is silly; washing up liquid has to get grease off, be ‘kind to hands’ and rinse away leaving little or no residue; that’s what I want from a bike cleaner.

There is a market out there for the next new wonder stuff, but unless it’s as cheap and effective as washing up liquid I’m not really interested.

Do you shower in washing up liquid?

There’s probably no reason why you shouldn’t – apart from the smell it’s pretty similar to shower gel, with the exception that shower gel tends to have more salt to thicken it.

I sometimes use Muc-off, sometimes just wash the bike down with car shampoo when I’m cleaning the car, sometimes use Swarfega heavy duty degreaser (pH 12) and sometimes just use water and a £5 brush from B&Q. Can’t say I’ve noticed any significant difference in cleaning ability between them apart from the plain water, and my bike isn’t a pile of corrosion yet either.

Just out of interest, look at the list of ingredients in shower gel, then look at washing up liquid….

😆

I don’t dispute that there are ‘better’ bike cleaners out there, and I’m all for the development of new stuff.

Good!

I do have a big problem with the idea that the best way to sell a product is to imply a problem with the competition/alternative that then doesn’t really stand up to scrutiny.

This wasn’t what I was doing (if this is directed at me) – I was adding some facts to the earlier comments of salt. Indeed if you see what I said I said it wouldn’t rust your bike away, just aggravate the potential for rust – which it will.

Washing up liquid will clean your bike, just not as well as other products – as testified by people above who have tried.

This is silly; washing up liquid has to get grease off, be ‘kind to hands’ and rinse away leaving little or no residue; that’s what I want from a bike cleaner.

Important to note here that not all grease is not the same, and a bike cleaners primary objective is to clean, remember it is not a degreaser.

There is a market out there for the next new wonder stuff, but unless it’s as cheap and effective as washing up liquid I’m not really interested.

It will never be as cheap as washing up liquid as it container more actives and more expensive actives at that. But it is more effective – try washing your bike with Muc Off some time.

There’s probably no reason why you shouldn’t – apart from the smell it’s pretty similar to shower gel, with the exception that shower gel tends to have more salt to thicken it.

Wash your hair with it I dare you! 😉

look at the list of ingredients in shower gel, then look at washing up liquid

Surfactants, preservatives and various things to make it smell and look how you expect. I often take my bike helmet into the shower to wash it with a good dose of shower gel, might well take the bike too if Mrs R wasn’t around to see it… 🙂

Edit:

Wash your hair with it I dare you!

I wouldn’t have a problem with doing that! Washing-up liquid isn’t some evil strong detergent, it’s made to be sufficiently mild that you can put your hands into a hot solution for a long time without causing you any harm. If you want a decent degreaser try dishwasher fluid – I wouldn’t wash my hair in that (or clean my bike with it)! 😀

Finish Line pink stuff or Kaaboom!

Both watered down, both seem pretty OK so far.

Green oil green clean FTW

For the people saying that shower gel and washing up liquid because the ingredients look the same – you need to consider that a surfactant is just a generic term – there are hundreds of surfactant that all perform differently and for different applications.

For instance look at the below – that’s just the surfactants available from one Manufacturer and Distributor. Not counted but well over 100 I’d say – just from them! Now someone will chime in and say they’re all the same (Crikey?!) which is the basis of some of the previous arguments but hey.

http://www.univareurope.com/uploads/documents/fi/dow%20surfactant%20table%20chart.pdf

The skill in formulating specialist chemicals of course is selecting the right blend for your application.

fairy liquid!why bother with anything else?

The skill in formulating specialist chemicals of course is selecting the right blend for your application.

Gee, really?

You’re trying hard to pull the ‘tested by scientists’ routine, do you wear a white coat too?

Just because it doesn’t say ‘Bike Cleaner, for Cleaning Bikes’ on the bottle doesn’t mean it won’t work.

Anyway, I’ve just washed my bike with a common household cleaner that works even better than washing up liquid; liquid clothes detergent.

Not only does it have all the desirable properties listed above, it also works to keep your sponge clean should any grease get on.

An additional point that you’ve overlooked; I can wash my clothes or my dishes with the above products too, raher than having a ‘Just for Bikes, not to be used for any other cleaning purposes’ bottle underthe sink….

Gee, really?

You’re really arguing yourself in circles. You can’t say one minute that all cleaning products work for all applications. Then feign mock surprise when someone points out that there are a myriad of different components to a chemical and that the skill lies in picking the right one for the application in hand.

Everything “works” to an extent, its really effectiveness which you touched on earlier – Does Muc Off clean your bike better than washing up liquid?

People that have tried above in this thread say yes. I doubt you have tried or you would have mentioned earlier.

Don’t get yourself worked up, go and have a relaxing bath, if you want bubbles, washing up liquid is the same as bubble bath. 😉

Oh and try putting washing up liquid in your dishwasher then tonight. 😀

People that have tried above in this thread say yes. I doubt you have tried or you would have mentioned earlier.

In 25 years of cycling, you’d perhaps have expected me to have tried each and every one of the bike cleaning products out there, no?

So no need to be patronising; I’ve tried lots of things, and for preference, out of everything I’ve tried, I use washing up liquid or liquid clothes detergent.

I use it because, as above, the properties I look for are adequate degreasing ability, cheapness, availablity, low incidence of skin problems, ecologically acceptable, good rinsability, low residue, pleasant smell in use.

You seem to be assuming that bicycles get dirty in some special way that requires NASA to be involved in cleaning them; they get a bit muddy and a bit greasy/oily in certain places, and the above household cleaners are perfectly adequate to deal with this.

Sorry, but it’s true.

Fenwicks also good for crispy grill pans

Hands up for cilit bang anyone.

Isn’t that pink?

We used Finish Line citrus degreaser for everything when I worked in a shop.

Went down a treat with some gin and a cocktail stick as well as doing a fine job on the dishes.

No lather though in the bath, which was a shame. 🙁

Bought the rubber duck up a treat though. 😀

I’ve tried lots of things, and for preference, out of everything I’ve tried, I use washing up liquid or liquid clothes detergent.

So you honestly found it easier using washing up liquid in a bucket with a sponge or something than just spraying with Muc Off or other product and just rinsing with a hose?

You seem to be assuming that bicycles get dirty in some special way that requires NASA to be involved in cleaning them; they get a bit muddy and a bit greasy/oily in certain places, and the above household cleaners are perfectly adequate to deal with this.

Yes, but like anything you can make a tailored product to work better for a specific area. Fairy cleans dishes, but I wouldn’t clean my car with it due to the salt. Similarly, a hairdresser once advised me that washing-up liquid and shampoo are incredibly similar, but I can’t imagine L’oreal doing wonders while cleaning my drivetrain. Apart from maybe coating it in wash n’go teflon.

You can clean your bike using WD40 as it’s a solvent and water-dispersant which shifts grime wonderfully, but there’s no way that’s going near my brake rotors. Or my hair, come to that.

Horses for courses – there are items in this world that are fuelled by marketing hype, but legally there has to be some benefit to any ‘advance’ that a company shouts about, and the laws on this are very strict. Consequently I would use a bike specific cleaner because the chances are that it has been tailored to work with the delicate plastics and carbon fibre on my bike, that Fairy may not like. You may see that as stupid, but I’ve invested significant funds in my bike and wish to look after it – to me that’s worth a few quid for some pink squirty stuff to use with the Dirtworker.