Thats a dangerous game of oneupmanship you are playing DD

To be fair, he did add the caveat that he would be blowing out his arse for the rest of the run.

Are trail shoes okay to cross over onto tarmac

yeah, some of the really agressive ‘fell’ shoes feel a bit weird on tarmac*, but you really shouldn’t be looking at the likes of ‘mudclaws*’ or ‘walsh*’ just yet…

(*not unlike running in cheap football boots – you can feel the studs/lugs through the soles)

‘trail’ shoes are pretty good for everything really. Even if you decide/find out you prefer a more fore-foot running style, a little heal cushioning can help nicely if you want to control your speed running down a steepish hill…

oh, yeah, you’re not allowed* to do hills (up or down) for a while, it’s really hard work, and a good way to hurt yourself.

(*says me)

most novice runners train themselves to be slow runners

run 30 secs, walk 30 secs is a great way to avoid this. when you can do that for 20 mins, make it 60 secs on, 60 off. then start to do some 1 mile runs, with 3 mins walking between. it’s easier to get fast then develop endurance than the other way.

Ah, Jimmers got there first.

Intervals are not just for building speed. They build stamina as well.

I’m aware of that but I think it’s easier, when starting out, to just run till you can do 30 minutes briskly without bringing up a lung.

@iDave
As Zatopek said when asked why he always trained fast “I already know how to run slowly”!!!

it’s easier to get fast then develop endurance than the other way.

Not sure I agree with that. Speed is hugely important but to develop it requires greater stress on joints, muscles etc the slower stamina build up helps to prepare for this.

If u can run off road, its much more enjoyable , your less likely to get injured and will help mtb more than road running.

I went out yesterday, pretty far from match fit. My stomach contained half a curry and a couple of glasses of bourbon from last night along with the morning’s coffee and a flapjack.

Managed about 6km with five vomits. Seems fuelling is important, who knew.

Managed about 6km with five vomits. Seems fuelling is important, who knew.

Weird. Seems like you had the perfect fuel in you.

Oh, I did. Briefly.

If u can run off road, its much more enjoyable , your less likely to get injured and will help mtb more than road running.

really?

I tend to explore new areas I want to ride by running round them with the dog but i’d say the road is much better for fitness. bit like on bikes.

I tend to explore new areas I want to ride by running round them with the dog but i’d say the road is much better for fitness. bit like on bikes.

Not sure there is such a disparity between running on and off road, as there is with biking.

IMHO of course.

For example a competitive athlete (say a good 5-10k club runner) would seldom run slower than 7 (ish) minute miling during training.

It’s relative though. 7min miles is slow for some, tempo for others and race pace for another group.

Actually can you just define a good 5-10k club runner and then it will make sense. 🙂

I find whenever I run off road, I have to be careful to not twist my ankle or knee, or hip or whatever, you have to concentrate much harder on where you are running, it’s nice, but on road I can just drift off.

If u can run off road, its much more enjoyable , your less likely to get injured and will help mtb more than road running.

But I’m more of a roadie.

I think if you’re relatively healthy you can just start and see how far you get. I did the Manchester 10k last year with no training in 57 minutes. Was a bit stiff the next day but no more than having done a big ride! I’m 36 with dodgy knees and a bad back as well!

edit; never been into running either.

Long post beware:

Before you completely ignore the barefoot running thing, have a read of this:

http://barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/

then this: http://educatedrunner.com/Blog/tabid/633/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/797/BAREFOOT-RUNNING-WHAT-THE-HARVARD-STUDY-REALLY-SAID.aspx

it gives good food for thought. I have completely changed my footwear and now use almost exclusively the vibram 5 fingers shoes.

I did this because I had severe lower leg pain after long runs since I was about 17-18, I had been to several doctors and physio’s who suggested everything from complete rest (I rested for 18 months on one doctors advice) to regular short runs followed by leg massage sessions. In fairness the latter treatment did seem to work, however it was bloody expensive!

I started using the vibrams to run in about a year ago. However I found that for any run over about a mile the muscles in my feet were quite painful, so i had to leave quite large gaps between my runs. Now I have a pair to run in and a pair which I use every day. Since I have started doing this then I have been able to run much further, however I am still running very slowly compared to what I used to do with shoes.

That’s my running story, ignore it or take something from it… It’s up to you!

Personally (of course we are all different) I’d see no fun in doing a 10k in a slow time without having trained. What’s the point?

I’m aware of that but I think it’s easier, when starting out, to just run till you can do 30 minutes briskly without bringing up a lung.

I tried for years to do this by jogging slowly, and failed. Only when following iDave’s advice have I been able to do anything like what could be called a brisk pace.

The problem with running slowly is that you spend a lot of energy just bouncing yourself up and down and not so much going forward. I find this hard on my joints, not to mention utterly dull. I find it far easier on my joints and legs and far far more enjoyable to run about 6.30 – 7.00 but I can’t keep it up for long at all because my heart and lungs can’t take it. Jogging along slowly won’t help me run 6.30 for any longer – I’ll be wasting my time.

Well I run a 4.43 min/mile

here I am at the weekend breaking a world record

* Still find it incredible that someone can run 4.43 pace for 26 miles.. 2 hours 3 minutes for 26 miles is astounding!

but I can’t keep it up for long at all because my heart and lungs can’t take it. Jogging along slowly won’t help me run 6.30 for any longer – I’ll be wasting my time.

True but it might help you get around a 10km / half marathon in good shape if that’s your goal. Also depends on your definition of fast – over what distance? 8 minute miles feels bloody fast to me if I’ve got to sustain it for 10 miles, but I don’t claim to be any great shakes at it.

Personally I see no fun in running hard for a minute then walking for a minute during a race (and the people that do this get on my nerves as they all seem to have to stop directly in front of me) but each to his own.

If you’re doing a 43 minute 10k then fair play (that’s 7 minute miles or thereabouts?).

Personally I see no fun in running hard for a minute then walking for a minute during a race

Don’t do it in a race – do it in training. This will allow you to run in races faster overall. I’ve actually done it and it helps no end.

Molgrips I’m interested to understand more about this short hip flexor thing and striking the front on the foot. Does this help with speed or just reduce impact and injury?

Molgrips I’m interested to understand more about this short hip flexor thing and striking the front on the foot. Does this help with speed or just reduce impact and injury?

It mainly helps in making you sound like you know what you’re talking about 8)

Personally (of course we are all different) I’d see no fun in doing a 10k in a slow time without having trained. What’s the point?

Out of interest do you feel the same about mountain-biking?
I’m just interested in if you equate the too?
I.e do you run as a means to an end, but ride as an end in itself? Or is riding also of no interest unless it’s to achieve a time based goal?
This isn’t meant as criticism BTW, both reasons appear equally valid. I’m just slightly curious as to why running is seems very much more a goal based activity compared to mtbing. I guess I do it too, but I’m not sure why. I’ve a sneaky suspicion it’s because people don’t really enjoy it per se, but I think that’s a bit too simplistic.
Anyone got any thoughts?

I run throughout the winter purely as a fitness thing, I don’t give two hoots [or know] how fast or slow I am
Some of my biking over the last year was training but most of it was just pedalling along sort of style.

Anyone got any thoughts?

Yup.

I enjoy running as it gets me outside in the great outdoors. Also really looking forward to my winter night runs with the headtorch and nice crisp sunny mornings. Pace times etc are interesting, and I like to challenge myself sometimes to go quicker, but I am more than happy going slow and enjoying the scenery. Probably more pertinent since I got rid of the MTB and just road cycle.

So emsz (and iDave) what’s a good workout for improving 10k times?

Are 10 * 1k intervals effective? Or do you need some shorter sprints?

This isn’t meant as criticism BTW, both reasons appear equally valid. I’m just slightly curious as to why running is seems very much more a goal based activity compared to mtbing.

There’s definitely something in running where mile times/PBs/10k times/HM times become very important – I’ve always wondered this – I think it’s just endemic throughout the sport – and in the same way that roadies shave their legs and buy ridiculously priced clothing just to fit in, runners end up doing the same with the plethora of statistics which can be applied to one’s performance. Running is very measurable isn’t it – perhaps more than road cycling, way more than mountain biking for sure. The ease of measurement means that you end up measuring yourself more and talking about it with other runners.

Or that could all be bollocks.

My usual advice to anyone who asks me what they should do when starting up running is “Just get out there and enjoy it, don’t hurt yourself.”

Can’t emphasise enough the importance of stretching, especially the ITB. I’m suffering with ‘runners knee’ at the moment and it’s no fun.

Once you’ve got a few miles under your belt you might want to look in to duathlon’s. There’s a few run-mtb-run events around with short run sections and short-ish mtb sections. I’ve put in for my first one in November.

Molgrips I’m interested to understand more about this short hip flexor thing and striking the front on the foot. Does this help with speed or just reduce impact and injury?

I R not a physio or anything, but I’ve just thought about it. Clearly you need to push your foot back behind you to push off – this is obvious. The first few runs I did I had a terribly sore lower back, from over-use or strain it felt like it. After seeing pictures of some good runners I noticed that their thighs were much further back than I seemed to be able to go. When doing the classic quad stretch I could hardly get my ankle near my bum when I used to be able to easily do it and also get my knee way back behind me.

So I did a few hip flexor stretches and tried running with my pelvis pushed forwards a bit instead of bending it back (using my lower back muscles) and it made a big difference.

Out of interest do you feel the same about mountain-biking?

I feel that way about mountain bike *racing* yes. If I don’t feel I can be training, making progress and having a good race then I don’t enter. I won’t race if I don’t think I can do my very best, and if I entered something I hadn’t trained for then I wouldn’t be doing my best.

I ride for pleasure though of course, that’s different. I’ll ride fast too if the mood takes me, because it’s fun. I’d probably run for fun if I lived within running distance (for me) of some mountains or woods or something fun.

Started running, off road, just this year in March. I only started because I got roped into agreeing to do an eleven mile fell race to raise money for a local charity. I come from a strictly cycling background (MTB & road) so had some good base fitness and not carrying to much excess flab.
Anyway, with only 4 months to train this is what I found:

Identify what sort of running you enjoy – road is way too boring for me, off road is what I like.

Get the right shoes, Mudrock 290 in my case, to suit the terrain. Even though these are ‘fell’ shoes they work for the odd mile or 2 of tarmac if your not hammering it.

Start slow, distance is not that much of an issue. My first run was 8km off road but on pretty level ‘groomed’ paths. Did this 2 or 3 times a week, and nothing more, for the first month. I found it took this long for my cycling legs to morph into running legs! As people have already said, any more than aches and pains afterwards then reduce distances or stop.

Once the legs are used to the new exercise add some speed or more challenging terrain. In my own experience its only after six months of running that I can combine rough terrain and lots of elevation change with running a bit faster.

My running is now at about the same level as my cycling – finishing mid-pack in your typical medium length fell race. Absolutely love it now, and complements cycling really well.

Wah gwan?

Re minichops – I find running on uneven ground FAR easier than pounding the roads, for some reason. Slower ultimately of course but still easier overall. Impossible to get a good rhythm going though.

Slower ultimately of course but still easier overall

So running slower is easier….well who woulda thunk it 😉

You are taking the pee now Jamie.

molgrips

Kind of agree with you, from the perspective of I actually like running off road, and so now that I’m used to it it seems easier because I’m enjoying myself.
If I did an 8 mile road run on the flat I know it would be faster (i.e higher average speed) than the 8 miles of the ‘viking 4 peaks’ fell race I did on Sunday. Yet very boring.
Road running is a fairly steady pace; the difference between minimum and maximum speeds on the fell race was huge. Some bits had to be walked (by me anyway), hands on the rocks type of ascent, while the descents were a barely controlled balancing act between max speed and a trip to A&E.
Sounds like mountain biking huh?

Yeah it does – I love leaping from rock to rock on the way down a mountain, much as I love a nadgery rocky descent.. but I also like the physical workout aspect of a ten mile TT on the bike – running on road is a bit like this for me.

The main thing is that I hate being so bad at running, and I really want to be good at it to be able to enjoy it and put in respectable times for my own personal satisfaction.

Can’t quite bring myself to drive out somewhere for a fell run though, and my local woods are only two miles away but that’s still too far to run there, do a run and run back. Especially as it’s up a big hill.

Stu d (luv the username bTW)

My iDave plan was written for me, and I know it’s his business, so I’d better not blab on here about it. Although I think I can get away with saying it’s sprint distance intervals.

I think fell running would kill me 😀