[Closed] Yesterdays shooting & todays protest.

Drug dealer who had firearm in his vehicle was shot during a planned operation.Big boys games have big boys rules springs to mind.
If criminals are prepared to go onto the streets of this country in possession of a firearm then there are consequences.
And then a bunch of morons use it as an excuse to kick up a stink and play the race card. Nothing to do with race. If he didn't have a gun in his vehicle he wouldn't have been shot.Period.

somouk - Member

Ohhh ... 5.56 from Sig Sauer MCX?

Not sure, a lot of forces seem to choose different rifles depending on their own testing.

Nothing to do with race. If he didn't have a gun in his vehicle he wouldn't have been shot.[s]Period[/s] Full Stop.

The phrase "live by the sword, die by the sword" (or gun in this case) holds true for such people.

I prefer, "if you walk around carrying a feather, expect to get tickled."

Expect this will go through the usual charade, be turned into race politics, have huge accusations thrown around by both sides and then in 16 months time the evidence in court will clearly point to the guys guilt and it will all be forgotten since something else will be stirred up.

You need to do a lot more than just have the gun in the car to get shot

I'm having some difficulty finding figures I can digest, but it does look as though black people are shot by police officers at about double the rate they occur in the UK's population.

[url=http://] https://fullfact.org/law/bame-deaths-police-uk/ [/url]
[url= https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Documents/research_stats/Time_series_tables_2015-16.ods ]IPCC breakdown tables[/url]

They're arrested at a rate something like 3x higher than white people are, and stop and search statistics are sometimes even more skewed.

That said, about 75% of black people who are convicted of a crime seem to be convicted of a drug offence, and they are appreciably more likely to be convicted of offences relating to Class A drugs.

[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/480250/bulletin.pdf ]Big Government Report[/url]

[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/479990/infographic.pdf ]Handy Government infographic[/url]

So there may well be nothing more to the higher-than-representative shooting rate than a higher-than-representative involvement in heavy-duty armed drug crime. But it'd be as well to be wary of racial bias. That would seem to mean asking; does intelligence that a suspect may be armed get treated more seriously if the suspect is black, leading to an armed operation and more wary officers? Do armed officers tend to perceive behaviour by black people as more threatening than the same behaviour by white people? Where officers do fire on a suspect, is it more likely that no weapon is found on the suspect if he was black? If the answer to those sorts of questions is a "yes" on average, then that's going to raise the shooting rate for reasons that are basically race-driven, and it would be as well to counter that in training so far as reasonably possible (and I'm imagining this is done already really...).

I'm having some difficulty finding figures I can digest, but it does look as though black people are shot by police officers at about double the rate they occur in the UK's population.

It's a good job they found a gun ,if they had found he was merely reaching in the glove box for a werthers original the baying traffic stopping protest would have gathered some proper momentum.

You are pulling stats from a total of 27 over 12 years. That's is not really a valid base for anything more than telling you the total.

That's true, agreed. And having so few to think about is quite a happy situation - I'm certainly not advocating for bumping up the numbers until we achieve statistically significant results.

If it was an entirely isolated figure then I completely agree that it wouldn't be of any interest. As almost every other statistic on interactions with the criminal justic system shows a racial dimension though, I guess it's probably worth keeping an eye on.

As we know nothing this thread is pointless. What wevdo know is that the incident will be used for shit stirring and attention seeking by the press. A good thread to close Mods?j

merely reaching in the glove box for a werthers original

He didn't look old enough to be an habitual user of Werthers.

There hasn't been a riot.

Someone's dead, discussing grouping is a bit shallow.

True.
That was an appalling comment and unworthy of you Flashy.

But he was Asian.
And northern.
Barely human really.

The "facts" as I know them

Jambafacts 😆

Appalling? Hardly. More noting that someone doing an incredibly hard, and at times awful, job did so very effectively. Bullets weren't sprayed around à la US police. No one else was put in any danger. A threat was seen (or perceived, obviously, as we're still light on facts).

Since I've been living in Yorkshire I can think of 6 un armed officers being shot by criminals (2 fatally) and 2 armed criminals being shot by armed officers (1fatally). Any comparison to America is ridiculous. There will rightly be an investigation and the officer involved will come under a lot of scrutiny. But these officers are trained to make a decision and the officer made the decision that the police were at risk and took the shot.

Having been supported by armed police numerous times when I was at risk from armed assailants, one thing that amazed me was their reserve. I've only ever seen them draw weapons once, and that involved a samurai sword...

chewkw - Member

Ohhh ... 5.56 from Sig Sauer MCX?

I just noticed one of the London force was using Ruger Mini-14 (5.56) in the past ... niccee ... one of my favourite if I were to own one.

"One of my favourites"?? Why would you ever want to own one ?

Well, it doesn't come across like that Flashy.

Your first post was flippant, and the second comes across as crass and in appalling taste.

Not only have his family got to deal with the loss of a son, they are having to deal with the shocking news that he was also a drug / gun / stolen car dealer.

Im not angry, its just odd.

Its like people were discussing darts...

There are those who enjoy discussing firearms and their use, finding it cool, especially the likes of "you know who" back up there.

[img] [/img]

Having been supported by armed police numerous times when I was at risk from armed assailants, one thing that amazed me was their reserve. I've only ever seen them draw weapons once, and that involved a samurai sword.

Probably due the paperwork that starts as soon as they draw weapons 😉

Thing is, int he circumstances of this stop it might well have been the right move. But that's not the only question- the police chose where and when to make the stop. So it's not so much "was it OK to shoot him in these circumstances" which is seems pretty likely it was- more "could they have arrested him under different circumstances and avoided it" which obviously could also be safer for officers and the public.

[img] [/img]

It's elf and safety innit.

The Police Force have a duty of care towards their employees.

They would be required by law to perform a risk assessment.

The risk assessment would show that the consequences of the suspect firing his gun at the police officers would be serious injury/death.

So measures must be in place to mitigate this and reduce the possibility.

Shoot him if he looks like he could be reaching for a gun.

Presumably they were trying to catch him "in the act". You know like The Sweeney used to do with bank robbers. "You're Nicked".

I'm of the opinion that if you wave a gun around in front of armed police you're going to get shot.

Fair enough we don't know what actually happened here, and until the inquiry has ended we can't speculate. The media are telling us few things about his past that eludes to him not being the nicest person around, and possibly has previous with guns and/or drug dealing.

At the moment I'm on the side of the police, but we'll see what the inquiry comes out with.

merely reaching in the glove box for a werthers original

No evidence that he was a pedophile. Typical STW jumping to conclusions.

How much of a threat would have have been shooting from inside the car?

Even if he had a gun, I imagine getting an accurate shot from the drivers seat would be very slim, and as the Police would most likely be wearing body armour, this could be seen as an over-reaction to an overall low-risk situation.

Regardless of whether in this specific case the police were right or wrong, surely it's a good thing that: -
1). We have independent investigation for all such incidents
2). The incidence of weapons discharge by police is very low as a ratio of situations where weapons are available
3). The incidence where people are actually killed by the police is extremely low
4). People feel free to protest and should be allowed to do so

I must say though that the weapons 'love in' in a thread like this is in extremely bad taste. People loving guns that are designed only to kill other people also leads me to questioning how much I would trust their opinions on other matters.

I'm of the opinion that if you wave a gun around in front of armed police you're going to get shot.

well, I sort of agree, in a very narrow sub section of "armed, with intent to hurt other people, no obvious history of mental illness, and with other members of the public who could be harmed nearby" which seems to match closely the events on the M62

Everything else really needs a very calculated approach doesn't it? Unless every single time the cops draw weapons and it's a life and death split second decision (which only should be really rarely), then I'd would suggest the default situation should be that the suspect is arrested without holes in him/her, and breathing.

Cant we all just chill out ,talk about guns and rub some oil on each other? We're all ex special forces It consultants here right.

How much of a threat would have have been shooting from inside the car?

Lol. You go and stand in front of the car then.

how much I would trust their opinions on other matters.

How much were you trusting his^H^H^Htheir opinion anyway? 🙂

mikey3 - Member
Cant we all just chill out ,talk about guns and rub some oil on each other? We're all ex special forces It consultants here right.

How much of a threat would have have been shooting from inside the car?

If it was a pistol they found and judging by how close all the other cars were to them then he would have presented a pretty high threat. Maybe not directly to the front but certainly through side windows.

If it was a rifle then things become a lot harder to manage in the confined space of a car.

You are all Ross Kemp and I claim my £5.

ehrob - Member
You are all Ross Kemp and I claim my £5.

If you squint a lot and maybe have some chilli in your eye - I look like Ross Kemp...

You are all Ross Kemp and I claim my £5.

I saw Ross Kemp in an airport once. A lot shorter than he looks on TV I thought.

Lol. You go and stand in front of the car then.

+1

Funny how the never ending queue of people claiming they could take out violent armed scumbags without ever firing a shot never volunteer to be Firearms officers.

I never said I was willing to do the job, just throwing an alternative perspective in to the mix.

Remember Mark Duggan / Hillsborough?

Whatever this guy's background, shooting the guy should have been a last resort and given Bradford's delicate relationships with the Police then big questions will be asked. The lack of body cameras is a West Yorkshire wide thing, though you'd have thought it might have been a wise exception in this case.

I expect that the findings from the IPCC will determine that it was a lawful shooting, with any evidence to the contrary being discredited. Accusations of a cover-up will be rife and who knows what after that.

Why is the relationship with the community and the Bradford constabulary delicate?

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/04/family-man-shot-dead-police-join-mp-appeal-calm-protests/ ][/url]

Worth a read.

Why is the relationship with the community and the Bradford constabulary delicate?

At a ( probably seen as racist)guess..

Large Asian Population, with a largely Non- Asian Police Force?

outofbreath - Member

Funny how the never ending queue of people claiming they could take out violent armed scumbags without ever firing a shot never volunteer to be Firearms officers.

Except Steven Seagal.

I don't understand why that would make the relationship delicate.

It has to be more complicated than that.

Years ago there were riots in Bradford (2001 & 1995) I expect that prior to, and since then relationships between a largely Asian youth and White Police force hasn't been the greatest. Throw this in to the mix, with the back-drop of the Mark Duggan shooting and I can't imagine its all nice as pie.

When pulled over by armed police (one with a drawn handgun, one with a sub-machine gun and one bizarrely in riot gear with a baseball bat) I turned the engine off as I stopped and then sat perfectly still with both hands in view until one of the police signaled to wind the window down. Doing anything else would have been suicidal.