[Closed] worrying times indeed

That was The Guardian not The Times 😆

Its truly terrifying what's going on. All in the name of a completely discredited dogma. Its nothing short of the systematic dismantling of the welfare state, by handing the lot, lock, stock and barrel to their totally unaccountable, rapacious and profiteering friends.

As noted, its a race to the bottom or the top, depending on where you're already sat. The increased division of our already hugely divided society. These privatised services will become vastly profitable to a select few, while wages are driven down to subsistence level, and working conditions, smashed away, rather than eroded, for everyone else.

Luckily, we have an effective opposition who are fighting the corner of ordinary people, and keeping the worst excesses of a rich Tory elite in check

Oh...erm.... hang on a minute....

so whats the difference between a public sector paying people minimum wage and mismanaging them compared to the private sector?

Someone making a shedload of money out of it, perhaps?

Basically the whole 'privatised is better' logic really is just being sold a handful of magic beans. The 'service' invariably gets worse, while wages and conditions are forced down to the lowest common denominator for the staff. All while a select few make an absolute killing!

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/9788801/A4es-Emma-Harrison-paid-1.5m-dividend-despite-pre-tax-loss.html ]such as....[/url]

Someone making a shedload of money out of it, perhaps?

It's the last minute Eton Mafia sell-off

they know they're ****ed at the next general election, so they are grabbing what they can on the way out the door..

snide little ****ing criminals the lot of them..

Yes its shocking.

Its essentially shadow privitisation.

And its to the benefit of no one except the owners of the private companies.

Take the case of the old lady who died in Surrey when she was left without care for 9 days.

Surrey Council had outsourced its care dept. The dept was using illegal immigrants as labour - no doubt to either increase profits or win bids for work due to lower labour costs.

The company was raided by immigration and closed.

No care for the old lady in Surrey.

She died after being left alone for 9 days

This absolutely disgusts me.

Labour should be making absolute mincemeat out of the Tories for this - but for some reason they are not... Tories absolutely going balls out to increase the gap between rich and poor, shamelessly trying to appease the uber-rich and dancing to the tune of largely amoral big business (The Thatcher doctrine.).

I can honestly say I hate CMD and Gideon!

As opposed to a bunch of ****less idiots trying to get through to their golden handshake/pension.

It depends where you're sitting. I have managers who are doing exactly that, yet the staff who work for them, who are essentially keeping the wheels turning, are getting a much worse deal.

If this is my future, which judging by the meeting I had yesterday with an external contractor to discuss
" reviewing the service " then I'm looking for the nearest exit.

Who is going to suffer ? Not the people at the top, that's for sure.

I can honestly say I hate CMD and Gideon!

When this lot are voted out, do you reckon many of them will pop up, earning absolutely enormous salaries, as advisers or consultants to the same companies that have profited hugely from this stealth privatisation?

Hmmmmmm.... I wonder....

A private health system run well is something to be envied

I used mine a handful of times during my stint in der fatherland and was superb.

Paid only slightly more than did to the NHS, my employer paid in too admittedly but it was well oiled machine back then.

These people are truly dangerous.
We should get rid of them, by any non- violent means possible, as soon as we can.

They care for nothing and no-one but their own kind.

They will steal our birthright and sell it back to us, smiling at their own cleverness and amazed at our passive stupidity.
They will destroy everything that people have worked and fought for, purely for greed and power.
They will create misery and division.
And they will profit from it.

You know what amuses me about all these type of threads? The fact that people seemingly think that their "side" aren't doing/wouldn't do exactly the same but wearing a different hat.

i'm not picking sides, just sad that its happening 🙁

Of course.

Because the NHS, BBC, welfare provision and the state education system were created purely out of greed and selfishness, weren't they?

Rusty Spanner - Member
These people are truly dangerous.
We should get rid of them, by any non- violent means possible, as soon as we can.

I am in no way defending the government policies in any way shape or form as I've seen the impact it can and does have, but I have yet to hear anyone who shouts and waves their metaphoric pitchforks come up with a suggestion for actually fixing the problem, it's always 'they must go' but never followed by 'and we must do this....'

The fact that people seemingly think that their "side" aren't doing/wouldn't do exactly the same but wearing a different hat.

I think we're all well past the age where we're hopeful enough to believe that one 'side' is any better or different to another

Governments can do wonderful things.

The means of providing equality and opportunity are there, but we seem to have forgotten how, in only two or three generations.

The means of providing equality and opportunity are there

Democracy in this country has never looked so shabby and threadbare. But the labour party is simply incompetent and spineless

The Tories, on the other hand, are cynical, divisive, mean-spirited and willfully cruel.

And the Lib Dems, utterly pointless

The thing is not only do we get a shite outsourced public services but we pay twice for them anyway.

All these outsourcers paying their staff minimum wage - who then claim housing benefit and tax credits because they can't afford to live on minimum wage.

So the state ends up supporting the profits of private enterprise. And we end up with poor services that in the end cost no less.

Indeed richmtb. We are all, as taxpayers, providing a subsidy to the profits of private companies who are already profiteering from the state.

The most cynical thing about this oursourcing, particularly in Health is this ridiculous notion, promoted by CMD, that charities, and not-for-profit organisations could bid to supply services. Well.... they can bid. But the rules have been rigged so there isn't a cat in hells chance of them actually winning a bid, unless they are part of a partnership with Capita, G4S etc. Which basically means that Capita will pay the initial capital for the bid, insurance etc, then sit back and let the charity do all the work, while they skim off all the profits

[IMG] [/IMG]

providing a subsidy to the profits of private companies who are already profiteering from the state

Whatever Binners - you're benefiting from it to you know.

[img] [/img]

Democracy in this country has never looked so shabby and threadbare

Wrong. 'Democracy' in this country has never before been exposed as an an utter sham; nothing more than a mythical notion, the fanciful idea that the ordinary people have a say in how their society is run.

In what way am I benefiting? Nothing springs readily to mind

In what way am I benefiting? Nothing springs readily to mind

Most directly by your pension, which will be invested in some way in these companies. More indirectly by virtue of the corporation tax that these companies pay, which the government will spend on your behalf.

Really? I thought tax was optional for these companies?

Most directly by your pension, which will be invested in some way in these companies. More indirectly by virtue of the corporation tax that these companies pay, which the government will spend on your behalf.

I'm sorry, but that's utter cobblers. A large amount of these firms benefitting from these new privatised contracts (care homes used by local authorities, for example) are funded by private equity. So we don't benefit in the slightest. They do. A lot.

On your second point... you're right. None of these large multinationals have any track record for avoiding corporation tax at all, and all gleefully stump up exactly whats owed to the exchequer, without question. Their only reward, the knowledge that they are contributing to the gaiety of the nation through their impeccable corporate benevolence

Too much regulation Binners.
That'll be the problem right there.

The is no such thing as the opposition, despite a large number of Labour MP's being former union stooges this doesnt mean for one minute that they will stand up for the 'man in the street' with any great conviction, they know nothing will change because they are also part of the machine that is making the change to privatisation of everything.

Next year will see the first contract awarded by this government to a private company to provide Telehealth. A system whereby a callcentre rings you up at home and checks on your health, you will be asked to take your own BP and Ox Sat levels amongst other things and give the info to the call handler, they will pass it all on to a doc for review. Thereby saving time and money going into a GP surgery. The DoH have figures which suggest that 15m people could use this system. It will be run by a private company, they will have nurses and doctors working for them but they wont be the NHS.

[b]PS What a lot of people forget is that the GP and dental work carried out in the UK is already private, these people just have contracts to supply services to the NHS, for a cost.

Revolution.
Surely its the only way.
Get the peasants on their bikes (thats us) and overthrow the t*****s.
In two months time i will be working for a private company who will be making money in the name of helping people with mental health difficulties. Wrong, very very wrong.
Lets hope for some instant karma.

Get the peasants on their bikes (thats us)

Have you never met the average STWer? 🙂

I am loling (though really it's not funny) at the CRC advert at the bottom of this thread saying 'Sale Ending. Final Reductions'.

they know they're * at the next general election, so they are grabbing what they can on the way out the door..

snide little * criminals the lot of them..

so whats the difference between a public sector paying people minimum wage and mismanaging them compared to the private sector?

Because the private companies will compete to win the bids. One area in which they will compete is cost. They will then cut their own costs, by paying their staff as little as they can get away with (amongst other things).

This is all well and good so far, because if they don't pay enough then their staff will leave. But if everyone in that job area is competing for business then all the jobs will be poorly paid. Therefore, the employees will end up scraping a living.

The big problem with this capitalist idea is that all the workers end up on the absolute bare minimum. It's not a controversial idea, it's not a rant, it's a rock solid well understood consequence of capitalism.

Now I'm all for balance in arguments and seeing both sides, but I'm nailing my ****ing red flag to the mast here. Making money the heart of the system only leads to misery for most of us.

Who can help? The ****ing government, that's who. They are in a unique position of being able to fix this by running things themselves and taking this nasty destructive competitive principle out of the equation. They have the key to help us be that bit happier.

Actually scratch that. WE have the key, because we have the ballot papers. And half of us are too stupid or greedy to realise what we can do.

the fanciful idea that the ordinary people have a say in how their society is run.

Oh we do have a say. We just are just too stupid to use it properly. Every election time there are surveys asking people what they believe in, and most of us support left wing policies, by a big margin.

Actually scratch that. WE have the key, because we have the ballot papers. And half of us are too stupid or greedy to realise what we can do.

Which is?
You may be overlooking the poor quality of the alternatives.
FTR, I agree with much of what you've said, but the options aren't as clear cut as portrayed.

Just like the last lot who said, on leaving, 'sorry, all the money's gone'

as I clearly stated.. the [b]lot of them[/b]

Actually scratch that. WE have the key, because we have the ballot papers. And half of us are too stupid or greedy to realise what we can do.

I agree entirely with your sentiments but I'd appreciate a little bit more advice on what I should do with my ballot paper to instigate the change.

Actually scratch that. WE have the key, because we have the ballot papers. And half of us are too stupid or greedy to realise what we can do.

Which is?
You may be overlooking the poor quality of the alternatives.
FTR, I agree with much of what you've said, but the options aren't as clear cut as portrayed.

For a start they could deliver what Dave promised with his Big Society wheeze. Remember that? Charities and Not-for-profit organisations were supposed to be integral to providing services. A lot of which they were already providing, with local council funding (now all slashed of course).

But it was a scam. A fig leaf that sounded better than 'we're going to hand over the whole public sector to our friends profit-hungry multinationals'. Which was always the intention. It couldn't possibly have been done with more premeditated cynicism

All the bidding processes have been well and truly rigged, so there's not a chance that any of these new private contracts will go to anyone other than the usual suspects. A consequence of this, thats not getting spoken of as much, is that the charitable sector is being sacrificed at the alter of privatisation too. Its small organisations so far, but you can bet your arse that some big established charities are going to fold soon, as the funding for the services they provide is cut to the bone. To be replaced by profit-making organisations.

Its the monetisation of everything! And its a disgrace that this is happening in a supposedly civilised society. And its being done very stealthily but very deliberately

I think you've misread my query binners.

Indeed. Sorry. 😳

I was returning a bit to the original post, and seem to go off on one. My missus works in the charity sector, and it absolutely infuriates me whats going on at the moment. Its scandalous, its intentional, and its cruel

No worries.

I agree entirely with your sentiments but I'd appreciate a little bit more advice on what I should do with my ballot paper to instigate the change.

Vote left.

Milliband & co might be rubbish, but at least they (or some of their party) are slightly more left leaning rubbish. And your local labour MP might different.

Don't forget that you are not just voting for a govt, you are voting for an MP too.

I won't be voting labour I'm afraid. Just can't do it.
My local MP is a tory, and I must give credit where it's due; he's a pretty good one. Trouble is, I do not agree with privatisation of services like health, police, prisons, education etc which is a tory must-have. The attempted forestry sell of was a biggie for me too.
But I still won't be voting labour, particularly with red ed in the seat.
Doesn't seem to be any middle ground for voters like me.

Oh we do have a say. We just are just too stupid to use it properly. Every election time there are surveys asking people what they believe in, and most of us support left wing policies, by a big margin.

Why do most people support left wing policies? Given the wonderful self serving nature of the average British man or woman in the street, I bet it's not because of some altruistic well meaning, but because they think they will get something for nothing.

Can I ask you a question? Where do you think this country would be if it wasn't for Capitalism? We wouldn't have had an industrial revolution, no industry, no railways. We needed people with vision and dare I say capital behind them to drive us foreward.

I was incredibly sad to see the end of so many nationalised industries, but what was the alternative. They were badly run, by people who didn't care. Unions had too much power and they were bringing the country and these industries to their knees.

I'm all for looking after the less well off in our society, but not at the expense of bringing the down the country as a result.

Don't forget in the late 1960's income tax ran at 98% for top earners. That's right 98%. No wonder loads of people emigrated.

I hope that voting is made compulsory, but we must have the option of 'none of the above'.

Given the wonderful self serving nature of the average British man or woman in the street, I bet it's not because of some altruistic well meaning, but because they think they will get something for nothing.

Yes. Most people believe that the workers should get a better deal because they are workers themselves. And they have a point. I'm not advocating 70s style union belligerence but so many workers get such a crap deal it has a negative impact on the quality of life of a large section of the population *that needn't happen*

Can I ask you a question? Where do you think this country would be if it wasn't for Capitalism?

I think capitalism is vital. But it should be restricted to those areas where it really works and is needed. Healthcare, transport, utilities I don't think come into that category. They are basic needs, not some business to be pissed up the wall.

Yes, the nationalised industries were badly run, but so what? Run them better, no need to abolish the idea.

There are shitloads of badly run businesses, I don't see a movement to nationalise them. Stuff was privatised on ideological grounds, not practical ones, and it is that ideology with which I have a problem.

Given the wonderful self serving nature of the average British man or woman in the street, I bet it's not because of some altruistic well meaning, but because they think they will get something for nothing.

I would hope its because most people genuinely believe that societies shouldn't be set up just to benefit the privileged. That a civilized society should care for the vulnerable and work to improve the living standards of everyone.

Given the wonderful self serving nature of the average British man or woman in the street, I bet it's not because of some altruistic well meaning, but because they think they will get something for nothing.

I think you're confusing reasonable, decent people who possess a level of humanity, with Tory's. I don't know how. There's little similarity

Where do you think this country would be if it wasn't for Capitalism?

I don't think there's a realistic alternative, but its what nature of capitalism. If its full blooded with no regulation then we end up with the banking crisis. So in the end, it needs regulation to save it from itself.

And it is not an answer to everything. In some areas, it simply has no place. And its those areas its venturing into now. Health, education, policing. Which is why a lot of people are very against it. A majority I'd say

Yes. Most people believe that the workers should get a better deal because they are workers themselves. And they have a point. I'm not advocating 70s style union belligerence but so many workers get such a crap deal it has a negative impact on the quality of life of a large section of the population *that needn't happen*

You are right it doesn't need to be like that and although I'm not on minimum wage, taking into consideration my age, experience and education it certainly feels like it.

But how do we take this forward. The so called political elite are only in it for what they can get, no matter what colour rosette they wear.

We need proper grown up thinking for the 21st Century problems we are now facing. It's no use going on about what the Tories are doing or what Labour are doing.

We need someone who can actually take this country forward. But because of this stupid political systeme we have, it will never happen. We sit on a see saw of political incompetance swaying from one disaster to another, each blaming the last party in power.

Where is V when you need him?

I think you're confusing reasonable, decent people who possess a level of humanity, with Tory's. I don't know how. There's little similarity

I expected a response like that from you, you moron.

Ooooooooooooooo. Get her!

[img] [/img]

Well done on your typical right-winger level of debate though

We need someone who can actually take this country forward.

Let me guess. I think I know this one. Is it 'less regulation'?

I think you're confusing reasonable, decent people who possess a level of humanity, with Tory's. I don't know how. There's little similarity

+1

I'm all for looking after the less well off in our society, but not at the expense of bringing the down the country as a result.

Whereas the Tories are completely set on screwing the less well off even if it does bring does the country as a result. Or rather, the easiest way to screw the poor is to screw the economy as the poor have less buffer to fall back on, so suffer most.

We need proper grown up thinking

I expected a response like that from you, you moron.

[img] [/img]

I don't think there's a realistic alternative, but its what nature of capitalism. If its full blooded with no regulation then we end up with the banking crisis. So in the end, it needs regulation to save it from itself.

I agree completely with this. Trouble is, no political parties do.
Labour just want to spend as much as possible and tax us to the hilt. The Tories just want everything to be privatised, and nobody regulated anywhere.

crosses fingers insults wins arguments

Where do you think this country would be if it wasn't for Capitalism?

Where do you think we would be if we had not spend centuries regulating it, organising workers and fighting to get the vote etc- Dark santic mines? Child labour? or somwhere even worse than that - its not exactly universally good now is it hence why we have enough money and enough food yet millions die every year due to capitalism and the way it divides resources

You started it!

Anyone who doesn't see through 'red' rose tinted spectacles has to be a Tory. I AM NOT A TORY. You are blind to anyones opionion other than your own.

I don't follow ANY political party. I don't trust any of them, they are all scum.

Groucho Marx once said he didn't want to be a member of a club that would have him as a member of their club.

A similar principal should apply to politicians. Anyone who wants to be one, shouldn't be allowed.

I agree that to be branded a Tory is considerably worse than labelled a moron. My apologies 😆

I think you're confusing reasonable, decent people who possess a level of humanity, with Tory's. I don't know how. There's little similarity

Plus another one. Whenever I see a Tory, I think "maybe David Icke is right about the lizards"

Where do you think we would be if we had not spend centuries regulating it, organising workers and fighting to get the vote etc- Dark santic mines? Child labour? or somwhere even worse than that - its not exactly universally good now is it hence why we have enough money and enough food yet millions die every year due to capitalism and the way it divides resources

And millions don't die as a result of so called socialist states?

Did I say it was wrong to regulate it? This what I mean, we need an alternative.

I want a health service that works, a proper postal service, a gas and electricity supplier that isn't going to rip us off, a national rail network that serves the whole country. But what we don't need are over bloated councils, nationally funded steel works and car industries.

We need a proper balanced economy that works for a Britian in the 21st Century, not one based on the 19th Century.

But how do we take this forward.

I dunno, how about we ban political parties? Then you'd have a range of candidates in every constituency, and the left wing ones would be able to make their case and win votes without the baggage of crap party leaders.

I think you're confusing reasonable, decent people who possess a level of humanity, with Tory's. I don't know how. There's little similarity

Come the glorious people's revolution, it will turn my stomach as a pacifist to see all those braying preda[b]tory[/b] bastards face the firing squad..
But when it comes the time to dispatch all the wild-eyed drooling sycophantic peasants that supported them, I will be jostling my way to the front of the crowd to get a go on the trigger.. (metaphorically speaking of course.. 😀 )

[/gnashing teeth]

And millions don't die as a result of so called socialist states?

Dear lord! So thats what it is, is it? If you want to regulate the worst excesses of capitlism, then you're a socialist? 🙄

We need a proper balanced economy that works for a Britian in the 21st Century, not one based on the 19th Century.

Unfortunately, what we have is a 21st century banking-based one that is already sewing the seeds of the next 'bust', by using government backed loan guarantees (which, ironically, is in itself a fairly socialist construct) not to lend to business, as intended, but to fuel property speculation in the South East. Aaaaaah the joys of unregulated capitalism. What could possibly go wrong?

Can you be a socialist and a home owner at the same time?

Unfortunately, what we have is a 21st century banking-based one that is already sewing the seeds of the next 'bust', by using government backed loan guarantees (which, ironically, is in itself a fairly socialist construct) not to lend to business, as intended, but to fuel property speculation in the South East. Aaaaaah the joys of unregulated capitalism. What could possibly go wrong?

They are not actually lending to either buisiness or property speculators (aren't they businesses anyway?). They are hanging onto it for dear life, which subsequently is depressing the already low interest rates. Why does a bank need depositors when it can get money from the government?

was incredibly sad to see the end of so many nationalised industries, but what was the alternative. They were badly run, by people who didn't care. Unions had too much power and they were bringing the country and these industries to their knees.

I'm all for looking after the less well off in our society, but not at the expense of bringing the down the country as a result.

Hands up everyone who thinks the countrys doing better as the result of the de-unionisation, privatisation or in fact due to tory policies generally.

PS: ....and where are all the apologists for Thatcher/Cameron who were so much in evidence pre the last election?

Oh Dear 🙁

Another of those " It's the other lot to blame " type threads ....

Once you get to a certain age you start to realise that cock ups like Stafford didn't happen overnight, won't be cured overnight and like it or not all parties at Westminster have to shoulder a portion of accountability for letting the NHS run down over DECADES not years.

And it is not a simple case of saying Bad Management, No Money, Blame the Unions or what ever your placard of the week shouts out, I would suggest that the decline is due to a complex combination of these and other causes.

Do I have the perfect answer ?

NO !

Is it all bad ?

Again I would say NO ! most certainly not but it is possible to get totally different views depending on who you ask and their own experience.

Leaving folks in corridors, hanging around in casualty for hours waiting for x rays, having to take a whole day off work for a hospital appointment are nothing new and I would suggest that if you think they are then you didn't get to experience the NHS in the 70s when I was unfortunate enough to need to use it a lot 🙁

like it or not all parties at Westminster have to shoulder a portion of accountability for letting the NHS run down over DECADES not years.

Yes, but remember the government does things (usually) that it things will go down well with the electorate. So it's our baying for lower taxes etc that mean we have to cut costs everywhere.

Fair one moley, I quite agree. Its always been a mystery to me how folk generally seem completely unable to relate government to their voting habits and government spending to the services they receive (and usually in the way that they have actually voted for them).

Remember one persons "driving waste out of the system" is anothers grandparent dying from neglect after 9 days alone.

It goes like this:

My taxes are too high! Damn government stealing my money!
But taxes go to pay for your services don't they?
No, they just go on duck houses for MPs!
Public services are struggling for money as it is.
It's all wasted! Get those lazy sods to work!
But firemen get paid peanuts to save our lives.
They can go and do another job if they like!

And so on. Very very stupid.