Are you saying that winter tyres feel/are the same as summer tyres even at summer temperatures under normal driving conditions?
If I drive within the speed limits and at a rate the majority drive at, yep, no difference - which is also why many folk can get away with driving on DitchFinders and not end up in ditches...
If I push it, hard, then yes I can feel they've a bit more give and do let go a bit earlier - but this is pushing hard on fast & empty country roads (I live in the Borders, we've lots of both). Remember though I do swap tyres/wheels for the seasons, but if I only ran one set, it'd be the winters.
Unless you get serious snow, summers all year round make the most sense
Otherwise use snow tyres when it's snowy. All season are designed for people in climates where snows are often necessary but don't want the faff or expense of the annual swap, but their performance is too compromised, they're just a marketing ploy. If you're in Canada or the Alps, have a set of snows, or chains if you're not rich
All season are designed for people in climates where it's below 7degrees ground temperature lots.
It's rubber chemistry as oppose to marketing.
Also - chains - have you ever used chains in anger ? They are great fun. I bought a set for a rwd van I had that was hopeless in snow. Only issue was by the time you decided to get out and **** about with the chains you were usually already either stuck...or in a really inconvenient place to change them on. Then invariably you needed to take them off or be the rolling roadblock at 15 mph with chains on clear road. Was not my greatest experiance.
Could someone explain exactly what UK-legal 'snow tyres' are? I was under the impression that there's a choice between winter tyres, all-season tyres and summer tyres. My assumption was that 'snow tyres' are metal-studded things which might be legit in Finland or Alaska, but aren't legal in the UK. I think maybe people are confusing winter tyres with 'snow tyres' and all-season tyres with winter tyres.
And isn't the whole point of 'all season' tyres that they make a small compromise on outright summer performance in exchange for greatly enhanced performance in winter conditions.
ps: At least no-one's started the thing about mixing winter-tyres on one end with summer ones on the other... yet 🙂
All season are designed for people in climates where snows are often necessary but don’t want the faff or expense of the annual swap, but their performance is too compromised
Can't say I've noticed much if any difference in performance between summer tyres and all seasons in the summer. I do notice a big difference in the snow though.
And isn’t the whole point of ‘all season’ tyres that they make a small compromise on outright summer performance in exchange for greatly enhanced performance in winter conditions.
They do work admirably in snow/compressed snow/ice though.
Loch muick road on Saturday.
They also coped well today with the melt water on ice scenario..... My neighbours q7 on summers less so.
Can't say the 82 raging horses has troubled the all seasons in summer but certainly has no issues doing the speed limit.
Otherwise use snow tyres when it’s snowy. All season are designed for people in climates where snows are often necessary
Jeebus!! We've had this discussion! They are not snow tyres. Seriously, try a set of summer tyres at 4deg (very common for a few months of the year at ground level at commuting times) and do the same with winter or all seasons. Massive difference. If you can get around on summer tyres all year then great. The number of comments in this thread saying otherwise would disagree.
Been reading this thread and thought I should add some (hoepfully) definitive clarifications from a properly cold country.... Canada where right now it's -25C.
https://ama.ab.ca/articles/choose-right-type-of-tire
https://ama.ab.ca/articles/winter-tires-101
There are supposed to be clear definitions on snow, winter and all-seasons and all-weather (yes they're different) but as with mountain bike tires actual models are somewhere on a sliding scale.
In Canada something is called a "winter tire" when the compound is softer and designed to work well in very cold temperatures. The tread pattern then determines if it's more of a "snow" tire or an "ice tire". For reference I run Michelin X-Ice as most of my driving is on plowed roads and so I actually want more tread to contact the road.
"All Weathers" is a compromise tire where the tread and compound are both more designed for winter than "All-seasons" but not quite as specific as proper winters.
All Seasons are mostly run in the summer - they may still have the M+S (mud and snow) designation because that is purely based on tread pattern but the rubber is like a hockey puck at -10C. They won't have the snowflake symbol.
Summers - Almost no-one runs summers....
In my experience North American all seasons are closer to European summers as far as compound. European all seasons sound like your all weathers. We generally don't get snow specific tyres in the uk. But sounds like you (Canada) and scandinavian countries get a wider selection of winter tyres that are segregated down further.
Could someone explain exactly what UK-legal ‘snow tyres’ are?
I think that's a rhetorical question, but...
Snow-rated tyres are the UK thing, the manufacturers tend to use the term "winter tyres" rather than "snow tyres". Michelin say, "These days, they are most commonly referred to as winter tyres, because their benefits can be felt not only on snowy roads, but in all winter conditions, in particular on wet road surfaces at temperatures < 7°C"
The snow rating is the three-peak mountain snow flake (3PMSF) symbol. This is accompanied by the older M&S-mark (mud and snow), but if the M&S designation is on its own then it hasn't been tested under winter conditions (strangely).
Studded car tyres are illegal on UK roads, but they can be used off-road
Nokian, a Finnish company, call theirs "studded winter tyres" rather than "snow tyres". They have rated studded winters with the 3PMSF symbol, although studded tyres are an exception to the need to test
Summers, Winters or All-seasons? Michelin UK guidance... https://www.michelin.co.uk/auto/advice/choose-tyres/summer-winter-all-season-tyres
@MarkyG82 - Yeah, probably on the All-Seasons in North America.. I don't think it helps though when tires for potentially different applications have the same name on different continents. Doesn't help especially when it's the same parent company!!
Thanks Canadians, Scandis, Aussies. Very helpful but this is the UK with its own climate and societal issues.
All season are designed for people in climates where snows are often necessary but don’t want the faff or expense of the annual swap, but their performance is too compromised, they’re just a marketing ploy.
Or wet, or cold, or both, and even mild and wet, occasionally hot. There’s no way the majority of people in the UK can afford to schedule or manage a swap, so a single all-season tyre as standard is the obvious choice, far more than a marketing ploy. Cars are a generic tool for most, not to be messed around with until a little light flashes.
multi21
Free MemberThe example I always have in mind is having to do an emergency stop on the motorway because a wheel rolled out from a truck. Literally a meter more and it would have been in my car.
,/blockquote>
So, imagine if instead of on a summer's day, this had happened on an icy or snowy day and you'd had summers on. There, you hit the wheel/fencing AND then you lose control and crash into the central reservation going backwards. And then everyone else around you on summer tyres also hits you.
Time to swap back to summers now that temps are well into double digits?!
Nope, we're now out of "winter tyres are just better" and into a spell of "winter tyres are more or less as good as normal tyres"
Nope, we’re now out of “winter tyres are just better” and into a spell of “winter tyres are more or less as good as normal tyres”
Quick check of the weather forecast for the next 7 days and most of it is below 7C, so Winters and All Seasons are the better choice. (I know that’s what you’re saying, just agreeing, I also know that’s a local forecast)
Can’t help but think this thread has very little to actually do with seasonal tyre choice, and a lot to do with people getting in a huff because someone else reckons they’re making a bad/wrong choice. Still, so long as they’re here and not hitting a patch of black ice in a cold hollow it’s not all bad.
The only car I'd use a summer tyre on now would be an actual sports car which only comes out in nice warm weather.
Not a thing I own, or am likely to anytime soon.
All seasons really are that much better almost all the time.
My midlife crisis lust object is an Ariel nomad though, so my view is perhaps skewed somewhat 😅.
Subaru XV gets winter tyres end of October, and come off at easter time. We live in the shadow of the Pennines, and the two snowiest places in England are both about 10 miles from us.
I've driven around in the snow on regular tyres and not had any bother. Winter tyres is a belt and braces approach really, and gives Mrs Seadog peace of mind.
I'd have saved a few quid by now if I'd bought an extra set of wheels and made the swap over easier...
Northwind
So, imagine if instead of on a summer’s day, this had happened on an icy or snowy day and you’d had summers on. There, you hit the wheel/fencing AND then you lose control and crash into the central reservation going backwards. And then everyone else around you on summer tyres also hits you.
Not sure what you're getting at mate. I agree winters are better in cold weather. I agree all seasons are a good choice if you don't want to swap seasonally.
But my point is that IMHO it's BS to say "Winters are fine in summer, i've never needed that extra performance because i don't drive like a knob".
You never know when you will need to swerve or brake hard, and summer tyres can stop tens of meters quicker in some conditions. It is nothing to do with ragging the car like a boy racer.
Christmas would not be christmas without the annual groundhog day STW winter car tyre thread! To save reading, has anything been said that wasn't said on the last 10 editions?
I might be wrong, but I think what @Northwind's getting at is the outcome of the scenario you describe would be far, far worse in a vehicle with summer tyres in winter, than a vehicle on winter tyres in summer. i.e. winter (or all-season) are less compromised for year-round use than a summer tyre is.
Could easily be reversed and say that it's BS to say “Summers are fine in winter, i’ve never needed that extra performance because i don’t drive like a knob”.
Christmas would not be christmas without the annual groundhog day STW winter car tyre thread! To save reading, has anything been said that wasn’t said on the last 10 editions?
Same old snowflake culture war. We need a referendum to decide this thing once and for all.
Christmas would not be christmas without the annual groundhog day STW winter car tyre thread! To save reading, has anything been said that wasn’t said on the last 10 editions?
Not sure, but just in case, winter tyres just allow people who drive like knobs in summer to carry on doing much the same in winter. There, that should do it 🙂
You never know when you will need to swerve or brake hard, and summer tyres can stop tens of meters quicker in some conditions. It is nothing to do with ragging the car like a boy racer.
I mean, I study the forecasts and put a fresh set of tyres on every week to maintain that peak seasonal performance..
To save reading, has anything been said that wasn’t said on the last 10 editions?
all seasons became more prevalent and available but it turns out they’re just a marketing ploy to get us to buy er, less more dunno, tyres??
Christmas would not be Christmas without the annual groundhog day STW winter car tyre thread! To save reading, has anything been said that wasn’t said on the last 10 editions?
Nah. Same old same old.
I'd just like to add that performance isn't only about 'spirited driving'. It's about that time you need to make an emergency stop.
If stopping distances are a few metres longer then that's the difference between not hitting that kid who just ran off the pavement, or hitting them at 20mph.
There's no question that it's safer for everyone if you have winter and summer tyres and change appropriately. But this can be an expensive option so not everyone can afford to do it.
a11y
Full MemberI might be wrong, but I think what @Northwind’s getting at is the outcome of the scenario you describe would be far, far worse in a vehicle with summer tyres in winter, than a vehicle on winter tyres in summer. i.e. winter (or all-season) are less compromised for year-round use than a summer tyre is.
Could easily be reversed and say that it’s BS to say “Summers are fine in winter, i’ve never needed that extra performance because i don’t drive like a knob”.
Sure but one doesn't preclude the other. If you're keeping one set on all year, all seasons are a better choice.
If stopping distances are a few metres longer then that’s the difference between not hitting that kid who just ran off the pavement, or hitting them at 20mph.
So you won't be using you car at all if there is any snow/ice around and you're on summer tyres?
flaperon and intheborders on the previous page are posting as if there is no (sorry, flaperon, 1% 😉) benefit to summers in warm weather compared to winters.
All I’m saying is, on my car, there is a (significant) advantage to summers in warm weather, even compared to all-seasons, so it must be even bigger compared to full winters. You never know when you’ll need to emergency stop so there’s always a benefit to reducing that distance as much as possible.
My bad, didn't read that bit. As you were
Also, I don’t see the price of CrossClimates and Pzeros being massively relevant, they cost more than the Pzeros anyway (which are oem fitment on this car).
By premium, I meant high quality performance tyres rather than price. The difference in grip level between Pilot sports and el-cheapo kwik-fit specials will be significant.
And isn’t the whole point of ‘all season’ tyres that they make a small compromise on outright summer performance in exchange for greatly enhanced performance in winter conditions.
Get out of here, there's no place for common sense in STW tyre debates.
ps: At least no-one’s started the thing about mixing winter-tyres on one end with summer ones on the other… yet 🙂
Mixed based on whether you mostly drive around left or right hand bends?
Mixed based on whether you mostly drive around left or right hand bends?
Change over at the summit - uphill and downhill is different too.
I don't think anyone's disputed that summers have a place.....only it's a much smaller place than an all season has in the UK and thus if you can only have one set of tires then it would be better an all season if your going to drive in winter. If it's a sports car you park up for winter then crack on.
The summer tires(hankook ventus prime 3) on the Berlingo are terrible once we get any kind of standing water beyond that of like 1mm active rain... It's once we get regularly and the temps start to drop that I know to fit the winters.
The winters come with the advantage of steel rims and deeper section which is good for the potholes and crumbling road edges. Local news groups awash with various sporty cars having a good old moan about cracks alloys and written off tires.
The summer tires(hankook ventus prime 3) on the Berlingo are terrible once we get any kind of standing water beyond that of like 1mm active rain… It’s once we get regularly and the temps start to drop that I know to fit the winters.
(I am struggling to not post in this thread!)
It does seem on crappy, broken, wet, muddy roads the schporty summer tyres are not as good as an all-rounder. For me in central Scotland, with regular trips north in the wet, cold and even snow & ice, that for me is best with an all season tyre.
I find the bigger performance difference is between cheapo tyres and premium tyres, and also sidewall depth. Cheap tyres and/or small sidewalls on shitty roads in shitty conditions = awful.
My Leon is currently wearing a pair of ditch finders curtesy of Arnold Shark when I bought the car and two mis-matched premium tyres that are heavily worn. I am too tight - and should not be - to change them until I have a few miles out of them. When they do get changed, I will be popping some Hankook, Goodyear or Michelin (depending on what my supplier has in) all-seasons on all four corners.
YMMV.
I agree with the majority (I think!) - separate summer/winter is the best option if you have the space and especially if you live in the north or travel for work. Proper all-seasons are the best compromise for everyone else!
As a personal anecdote, I met a friend last Thursday for an early morning run from a nearby rural car park. I noticed it looked a bit icy, but drove round & parked up fine. My friend didn't even make it into the car park, and we spent 20 minutes getting his car out onto the road again. No prizes for guessing who was in a front wheel drive car with all seasons, and who was in a rear wheel drive car with summers!
So you won’t be using you car at all if there is any snow/ice around and you’re on summer tyres?
Not if I can help it, no. At the moment it's pretty easy for me to avoid it so that's what I'll do.
But that wasn't what my post was about - it was about the importance of grip even if you aren't a boy racer.
For the v nerdy (not me honest but I did watch his video of this test last night....) there is a very detailed review of all seasons here
Tyre Reviews - All Season
Fundamentally they are very good these days but there are different strengths and weaknesses between brands and models. So Cross Climates are skewed towards v good snow performance with a slight weakness (still good) in the wet. Recommendations for predominantly wet (i.e. midlands south) with occasional snow ability were some Hankook Kinergy 4S2.
Of course all of these conclusions is subject to the fact this guy's undoubtedly paid by a manufacturer to go and skid cars around an icy lake for hours on end (fun job!).
I was looking at getting those Hankook Kinergy for my Hyundai, but they don't come in the size I need which is very annoying.
The AutoBild test I linked to earlier does not rate the Michelin as highly, although they take other factors into account like wear rates etc.
I find it interesting that there are such big differences between tyres on test. His summer tests show gaps in dry and wet between "premium" brands, so it is not like just buying expensive is the only way to go.
Some other interesting comparisons:
Studded, winter, all weather, all season, summer comparison
https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/Summer-All-Season-All-Weather-Winter-Nordic-and-Studded-Tyres.htm
Video about temperature performance (7degree rule)
Interesting video.
the hakkapelita is what i had on my last few cars... if i didn't have full studs.
Quick resurrection...
I can't remember if EVs were mentioned, but make sure that your tyre choice is suitable for EV characteristics
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/12/heres-why-electric-vehicles-need-ev-specific-tires/
An aside is that "Pirelli says that the tire's influence on an EV's range is anywhere from 20 to 40 percent..."
EV tyres are important, mainly for load ratings due to how heavy the battery packs are.
But, the rolling resistance and therefore range is a similar argument to "ECO" tyres for ICE cars. In terms of this specific thread though, that is a terrible idea as to make a tyre efficient for range, they will not work well in cold, wet, ice and snow.
The trade off will always be grip vs efficiency
^^^ this is interesting, I have a Q4 etron on order through Tusker (lease through work) and asked them just the other day about the possibility of it being supplied with CrossClimates. They put me onto Audi who are costing and going back to Tusker - will wait and see the outcome...
An aside is that “Pirelli says that the tire’s influence on an EV’s range is anywhere from 20 to 40 percent…”
Watching the etron try and get up the gentle slope into the Audi garage at altens the other week......it could even be 100% ..... That ev was going no where. And it wasn't even much of a hill. Combo of big heavy car, minor slope and eco tires was interesting to watch in traffic.
*Before the ev brigade get here.....plenty of ice cars doing the same.
But, the rolling resistance and therefore range is a similar argument to “ECO” tyres for ICE cars. In terms of this specific thread though, that is a terrible idea as to make a tyre efficient for range, they will not work well in cold, wet, ice and snow.
The trade off will always be grip vs efficiency
Grip and rolling resistance aren't inextricably linked like that. CrossClimates score well on both grip and low rolling resistance for example.
https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-ViBilagare-Eco-and-Regular-Summer-Tyre-Test.htm
Wet
Wet braking was led by the Nokian Hakka Blue 3 "normal" tyre, stopping the vehicle in 28.6 meters, where it's eco brother the Hakka Green 3 took a further 5.1 meters, which was the best of the eco tyres!
In terms of rolling resistance, the eco tyres won.
One interesting thing with ECO tyres, is they have a smaller tread depth than their equivalent normal tyre, which will massively affect wet handling.
