What would be the go to All Season tyre? We live in Edinburgh and have all season tyres on one of our cars, an aging Renault Scenic (which are running until it's no longer viable, I worry this might be soon).
Our main car is a VW Touran which is used mainly for getting the kids about, holidays etc. I'd like to get some All Season tyres on this.
Our main issue is getting in and out of the estate we live on. It gets minimal gritting and we're at the top of a hill. Also the kids' nursery is down a private road (although they are good at clearing it).
Don't really have space to do a winter/summer set. Plus if we did I think the tyres would expire due to age instead of being worn down due to how few miles we do!
See what is available in your size. Then if perfomance on snow getting up and down the hill is important choose one of the tyres with good snow performance.
Though any good all season has far better snow grip than summers. Going all season is the important factor, the brand less so. IMO
My German RWD auto car came with nice summer tyres that couldn’t handle steep wet roads, muddy car parks and wore out in 8000 miles. The CrossClimate+ I replaced then with have done 30,000+ miles, work in the cold and wet and generally feel much more confident 90% of the time. I’d not run a car again with summer tyres.
+1
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/in-praise-of-proper-tyres/
Over the last snowy week I’ve completed a total of 350 slip-free miles and a set of conti all seasons. In my BMW.
I have swopped the OEM tyres on my last 2 Audi’s out to CrossClimates, A6 Avant Quattro and currently Q5 and have found them like night and day. We live in a high area of south Lanarkshire and get a fair amount of ice and snow.
Have just today ordered a set of 4 for wife’s Q2 which has been struggling on our local roads this past week.
The tyres that come on new cars are always terrible even if they have the same name from the same brand as the aftermarket tyres.
As others have mentioned, winter tyres in the UK are NOT snow tyres. They may be snow rated but they are just winter oriented. Soft compound, more grooves, different construction. Better for ANY condition that it cooler. Not just wet.
It should be standard that UK cars have all seasons fitted from factory.
Also those saying next week is warming up. Max 12 is still likely to be close to freezing at commuting times at tarmac level. Pretty sure the drop is about 4-5 Deg between air and ground level.
The tyres that come on new cars are always terrible even if they have the same name from the same brand as the aftermarket tyres.
Codswallop. The cars fitted to most remotely sporty cars will be optimised for handling, those on electric/eco cars are highly optimised for rolling resistance, so they won group tests. They might not be optimised for winter conditions, but they're rarely bad tyres
I have an EV coming next summer on a lease deal, through work. Standard EV optimised tyres are included as are wear and tear replacement with same. Gonna miss my CrossClimates 😞
Can you not choose to fit different tyres as long as the car goes back how they expect?
Not sure, as the arrangement is it goes to KwifFit for routine tyre wear and tear replacements and the cost is included in the lease deal.
As others have mentioned, winter tyres in the UK are NOT snow tyres
"Snow tyre" has morphed into the current umbrella term "winter tyre" and is used by manufacturers and individual countries. Countries specify snow chains, tread depth, and "winter" rather than snow tyres, e.g. this from Finland Today...
"Winter tires can best be identified by the 3PMSF markings on the tires (three-peak mountain snowflake symbol)" https://finlandtoday.fi/new-traffic-law-requires-winter-tires-to-be-used-from-november-1-if-the-weather-so-requires/
A CC2 with 5mm tread is fine in Finland as a tyre used on snow
What would be the go to All Season tyre
I've got Michelin Crossclimates on my Caddy van and they've been excellent. Just spent 2 days in the far North West driving in all sorts of snow.
Important thing to remember about the CrossClimate is that Michelin originally didn't designate it an all-season tyre (which are usually designed by starting with a winter tyre and working backwards) - they designed it as a summer tyre that just so happens to have the 3PMSF approval.
Pretty much the perfect tyre for most of the UK tbh, and what we have on the Jeep (and the Tiguan before that).
Despite joining and enjoying the adjacent thread mocking this one and all the other tyre threads, I run Michelin cross climates and love them for the reasons given in the last couple of posts above (and others). I live on the south coast, semi-rural, so snow is rarely a concern but rain always is and frost was a big issue recently. Previous Summer tyres just spin up in my FWD turbo diesel golf in the merest hint of rain when the turbo kicks in. I’m not even talking about “making progress”, I mean getting safely and smoothly out of junctions. And that behaviour tells me not to expect much in braking or cornering. Cross climates, on the other hand are reliable in these conditions year round, inspiring confidence in emergency braking situations. Idiot dog brain above is spot on.
@timba I appreciate the technical designation from the industry as snow = winter. But Finnish winter tyres have a much different set of requirements than UK variants. Also, most tyre fitters in the UK would not use the term snow tyres with Joe public. Hence the resistance to call them snow tyres here as it gives people the wrong idea that they are only for snow.
But Finnish winter tyres have a much different set of requirements than UK variants
Not so different
The 3PMSF standard is EU-wide and is the same one as is used here. The only difference that I can see is that they want a 3mm minimum tread depth against our 1.6mm
Granted, to use the 5mm recommendation for any length of time you'd want something with a lot more tread depth from new but that isn't the discussion here
Agree on the Cross Climates, I put a set on 2 years ago and they have been very, very good. I also have a set of Cooper full winters in storage that I thought I might use if we had another 'Beast from the East', but can't see me using them.
Another option for storage is a garage if you are friendly with them. Mine are sat on a rack if I ever need them - you do need to pay a small amount to have them swapped over + balanced though, tenner a wheel from memory.
dissonance
Full MemberThe problem with your winter tyres are good approach is, next week, they arent for me. Its outside the Michelin recommended range during the day so unless you want me to drive at night its a bad choice.
They don't turn into a pumpkin at 7 degrees. The recommended range is only where they work better. There's then a wide band where they're perfectly good but just not outright better. But of course, that doesn't make them bad, or a bad choice.
The big thing is that when winter tyres are better, they're much better, at the exact time when you most want it. Much safer, much more likely to get you to your destination. Whereas when they're worse, they're a bit noisy and wear faster, and have less good handling on a warm summer afternoon where you absolutely least need it. Nobody ever got stuck in a sunbank.
The 3PMSF standard is EU-wide and is the same one as is used here.
I was more talking about the public image of tyre types rather than standards. Interesting to know the above though.
Don't scandinavian countries have another level (or 2) above our winter spec of full blown ice tyres. Studs etc.
I used to have a set of steel wheels and winter tyres for my car and my wife's car. That's 8 steel wheels that came out the loft and down to the driveway for swapping every October and March and 8 summer wheels that went the other way. Yes they were terrific but jeez, my poor back! I then sold the winter wheels and fitted Cross Climates for year round use to my car. I've also recently fitted those Hankook all seasons that won the Auto-Express group test (mentioned above) to my wife's 4x4. Having now driven on all season tyres, in all seasons, including the recent cold snap, they really are a no-brainer for year round use on Scottish roads. Nearly as good as a summer tyre in summer but far, far better in poor conditions when grip is normally lacking. They aren't as competent in deep snow as a full on winter tyre but they generally work just as well on cold wet roads and aren't as compromised in mild weather. About to fit another set to my daughter's car and won't ever go back to summer tyres. I don't understand why summer tyres, designed to cope with a Greek heatwave, are default fitment for new cars sold in Scotland.
Don’t scandinavian countries have another level (or 2) above our winter spec of full blown ice tyres. Studs etc
Tyres meeting the 3PMSF standard will have different levels of technical ability. A top-class tyre will exceed the standard and perform adequately on ice without studs.
A studded tyre will improve grip on ice, but studs have obvious problems with noise levels and damage to roads and, in any case, they're not subject to 3PMSF testing
Winter tyres meant for cars are disappointing in that they don't look like a Mad Max prop because they need to fit inside a wheelarch, but the magic is in the tread compound and pattern
Nokian is a Finnish company, I haven't got time to trawl for prices and reviews just now, but their Hakkapeliitta R5 is worth a look, depending where you drive https://www.nokiantyres.com/tyres/passenger-car/winter-tires/
EDIT: It's worth mentioning that the Finns rely on their winter tyres, you'll find standard, extra-load and run-flat versions as a result
don’t understand why summer tyres, designed to cope with a Greek heatwave, are default fitment for new cars sold in Scotland.
This.
Pretty much applies across the UK.
Many folk struggled to move their cars safely even down here Gloucester way, see that there Leckhampton etc.
Converted all season user here.
I tell my insurer each time I change the wheels and tyres.
DO you? Never have, they're both BMW supplied wheels (18" and 19") with appropriate winter & summer tyres fitted.
I don’t understand why summer tyres, designed to cope with a Greek heatwave, are default fitment for new cars sold in Scotland.
This.
My previous 4 Series came with 20" wheels and Pirelli's - they were a bit 'nervous' in the cold and on searching I discovered that in North America they are not recommended for use below 7c...
I live in NE Scotland and ran winter tyres during the winter from 2010 to 2021. The last few years have seen such long prolonged warm spells during the winter, I've not bothered getting a set for our new car. I'd rather crawl around at a snails pace on the few wintry days than drive at normal speeds on dry roads on winter tyres at 15C when it feels like the tyres are rolling of the rims.
I’d rather crawl around at a snails pace on the few wintry days
Ah yes there were a number of you guys on the bypass last week. 15 mph just generally being a nuisance.
I live in NE Scotland and ran winter tyres during the winter from 2010 to 2021. The last few years have seen such long prolonged warm spells during the winter, I’ve not bothered getting a set for our new car. I’d rather crawl around at a snails pace on the few wintry days than drive at normal speeds on dry roads on winter tyres at 15C when it feels like the tyres are rolling of the rims.
Must've been crap tyres as no way would anyone except a 'professional' driver feel that with the winters I use.
I can feel a difference with the winters in warm temps.
Driving into work this morning they felt a bit wandery, but nothing that i would call scary or unsafe and def not at the point of ending up in places i didn't want to be.
But yes i could feel a difference
Lot of posturing on this thread (echoes of Surfmatt). I agree all-seasons should be fitted as standard for most parts of the UK and if you’re that good / informed / on the edge you can upgrade to your seasonal or terrain specific preference. Clue.
I can feel a difference with the winters in warm temps.
Driving into work this morning they felt a bit wandery, but nothing that i would call scary or unsafe and def not at the point of ending up in places i didn’t want to be.
But yes i could feel a difference
Which isn't really a surprise. Fwiw, I drove briefly with a set of winters on in the summer at a temperature of around 25˚C and speeds up to 70mph. They felt a little vague compared to my - admittedly lower profile summer tyres - and I took it easy, but nothing terrible happened, there was no melting of rubber, I didn't slam into the car in front every time I applied the brakes, or slide off the road on bends and the compound didn't disintegrate. I did not turn into a pumpkin and neither did my car and that was in full-on summer heat. Even winter tyres, as opposed to all season ones, can cope with short spells of use in mild conditions without terrible things happening. I'm sure it's not optimal, but it's not catastrophic either ime.
More importantly, at the point in winter when the rubber compound of a summer tyre feels more like a block of rigid Lego-brick plastic, winter tyres are soft enough to actually grip properly. You can feel the difference every time you drive in low temperatures and particularly in the wet. If I were buying now, it'd be all seasons, but as I already had two sets of wheels and space to store them, a set of winter tyres on my spare wheels, a few years back, made sense.
I don't unbderstand why people get so worked up about this. Winter-rated tyres make such a ridiculously obvious difference in cold and wet conditions that once you've tried them, you don't really want to go back. I suspect a lot of those who seem evangelically opposed to winter and/or all season tyres simply haven't used them.
Totally agree bwd.
I'm happy with a little wandery when it gets warmer occasionally in the winter, too then have the levels of grip i had in the snow and ice last week. Well worth a trade off
I suspect a lot of those who seem evangelically opposed to winter and/or all season tyres simply haven’t used them.
I'm not against them at all. I won't be getting any though. My car feels pretty much exactly the same to drive in the middle of summer as it does now.
I currently do the two sets of wheels/tyres thing. Michelin Energy Savers in the summer as were OEM on the car. Efficient, but useless in the wet, more than hopeless in the snow. Then a set of Conti Winter Contacts on another set of wheels for the winter. Like above, bought a trolley jack and down to less than an hour to change all 4. TBH, they normally go on in November and are rarely off before Easter. I'm in NE Scotland, but even at 10 degrees plus in the wet, they are miles better than the summers despite the <7*C recommendation.
Interestingly, if you read the Autoblid or Autoexpress tyre tests, often the 'reference winter' usually scores in the top few for wet braking and wet handling in the summer tyre tests. So if you live somewhere wet, you'll still be better off with winters than summers, even in normal temps.
Now I've got the van as well, I'm tempted to just go Cross Climates on both and risk having to use snowsocks occasionally though for simplicity, rather than having 2 sets per vehicle.
DO you? Never have,
Yes, I always inform them on the phone, twice a year. Not ever been a problem. As stated above it makes sure the company is aware of the change which the small print suggests is necessary.
Another total agree with what @badlywireddog says.
I’m happy with a little wandery when it gets warmer occasionally in the winter, too then have the levels of grip i had in the snow and ice last week. Well worth a trade off
Yep. For where I live* winters are less compromised in summer than summers are in winter. I've had separate winter/summer wheels/tyres for the past 15 years or so and they were worth it, but all-seasons strike a good compromise for me now: no longer live at altitude and far less actual driving in snow.
* That's the key bit.
All-season tyres were a £500 option when I factory-ordered our current van 5+ years ago, i.e. for £500 extra Ford would fit all-seasons in place of the standard van tyres. Not exactly an incentive that many folk are going to take up. It should be a no-cost option. Instead, it cost me ~£100ish (and the hassle) to remove the standard tyres within 100 miles of new, Gumtree them, and fit my choice of all-seasons in their place.
Which isn’t really a surprise. Fwiw, I drove briefly with a set of winters on in the summer at a temperature of around 25˚C and speeds up to 70mph. They felt a little vague compared to my – admittedly lower profile summer tyres – and I took it easy, but nothing terrible happened, there was no melting of rubber, I didn’t slam into the car in front every time I applied the brakes, or slide off the road on bends and the compound didn’t disintegrate. I did not turn into a pumpkin and neither did my car and that was in full-on summer heat. Even winter tyres, as opposed to all season ones, can cope with short spells of use in mild conditions without terrible things happening. I’m sure it’s not optimal, but it’s not catastrophic either ime.
Again, are you comparing equivalent tyres and same (approximate) widths/profiles?
My Pirelli winters are rated to the same speeds as my Bridgestone summers and as an ex-racer (motorcycles) I find that they deliver the same performance for any driving you'd want to do on a public road - but then I'm not a 'Surfmat' 🙂
Again, are you comparing equivalent tyres and same (approximate) widths/profiles?
Yep, pretty much, though the winters are on one inch smaller wheels, so slightly higher profile/taller sidewalls, though nothing radical. My point was that driving winters in summer conditions was basically fine bar a slightly different feel. Nothing terrible happened. I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing tbh.
Are you saying that winter tyres feel/are the same as summer tyres even at summer temperatures under normal driving conditions?
’d rather crawl around at a snails pace on the few wintry days
This is why the UK roads fall into chaos when it snows. People who get in their cars and think they'll be fine because they're going slowly. When you bump the car in front of you at 3mph, you still block the road while you exchange details. When you get stuck on a slight incline, you impede every other vehicle out there. You are not a driving god, you're literally posting in public that you have zero skills in risk assessment.
FWIW I ran winter tyres all year round on my last car and apart from an embarrassing incident when the temperature nudged 35C and the tyre tracks I left on the road went right to my front door, they were absolutely fine.
I've never been in the situation where I've wanted that extra 1% of stopping or cornering performance in the summer, but want to avoid the 99% loss of traction you get with a summer tyre in wintery conditions.
Flaperon
I’ve never been in the situation where I’ve wanted that extra 1% of stopping or cornering performance in the summer, but want to avoid the 99% loss of traction you get with a summer tyre in wintery conditions.
I take your point but let's be clear, it's not 1%. Example: ADAC tested and found stopping distance at 100kph was 16 meters longer in warm weather with winter tyres than with summers.
On my own car, i could notice the ABS coming on in warm dry wather when it was running all-seasons (CC and Quadraxers), it would never ever ever do that on summers (Pilot Sport/Pzero).
Also winter tyres feel like blancmange in warm weather, i assume due to the big old tread blocks.
Most people here referring to "winter" tyres are meaning 4 seasons, not dedicated winters made for snow.
Here is a good test/review https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Auto-Bild-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm
with the site having a lot more info on different tests showing the gaps.
On my own car, I could notice the ABS coming on in warm dry wather when it was running all-seasons (CC and Quadraxers), it would never ever ever do that on summers (Pilot Sport/Pzero).
Not sure that's quite a fair/representative comparison. A winter tyre in warm dry conditions vs. a high end, performance sports tyre is a bit like saying, "oh, Lewis Hamilton on extreme wets on a dry track is so much slower than on Slicks" without acknowledging that wets on a dry track are faster than slicks on a wet track.
Brake hard on a mid range/low rolling resistance tyre in same conditions, you'd likely find them closer to the CC than the Pilots, otherwise, what's the point of the pilots! Given my experience of Pzeros, they were really poor in the rain, so repeat the same test in say <15 degrees and damp, I bet I know which'd stop quicker, and I know what the UK weather is generally closer too.
Don't get me wrong, I love a performance summer tyre and warm dry weather for 'spirited' driving. But if I had to pick one for year round, I'd always go Cross climates, or run Summer/Winters. But then I do live in Scotland where we have 6 months of winter followed by 6 months of bad weather.
Also winter tyres feel like blancmange in warm weather, i assume due to the big old tread blocks
And the fact the sidewalls are softer to since they need to remain supple at lower temps. Seem to recall in my handbook it recommends a 1-2 psi pressure increase for running winter tyres.
bjhedley
Not sure that’s quite a fair/representative comparison. A winter tyre in warm dry conditions vs. a high end, performance sports tyre is a bit like saying, “oh, Lewis Hamilton on extreme wets on a dry track is so much slower than on Slicks” without acknowledging that wets on a dry track are faster than slicks on a wet track.
No that's not it at all.
flaperon and intheborders on the previous page are posting as if there is no (sorry, flaperon, 1% 😉) benefit to summers in warm weather compared to winters.
All I'm saying is, on my car, there is a (significant) advantage to summers in warm weather, even compared to all-seasons, so it must be even bigger compared to full winters. You never know when you'll need to emergency stop so there's always a benefit to reducing that distance as much as possible.
All seasons or even winters may be a better choice for some as an average across the year, but that doesn't mean summers don't have their advantages in the warm.
Also, I don't see the price of CrossClimates and Pzeros being massively relevant, they cost more than the Pzeros anyway (which are oem fitment on this car).
is that the spirit of the driving god, surfmatt coming through...
jam-bo
Full Memberis that the spirit of the driving god, surfmatt coming through…
If that's to me, no- it's not, so kindly butt out. 👍
The example I always have in mind is having to do an emergency stop on the motorway because a wheel rolled out from a truck. Literally a meter more and it would have been in my car.
Another example is a load of metal fencing blowing off the roof of a transit in front and landing on the road in front of my car.
I haven't said anything about driving like a boy racer ****.
so kindly butt out. 👍
Sorry reads worse than I meant it to be, and I can't edit it!
Some good arguments for swapping to summer tires for 3 months of the year if you wish.
Still not hearing anything that suggests summer tires make more sense than all seasons all year round.
